Is there anything in Star Trek that can threaten Star Wars?

[Illuminatus Primus]

It's highly indicated in the EU, that what the Sith does (or the Jedi with equivalent and less malevolent Jedi Battle Meditation) is they send out an overriding command/thought/illusion that simply overwhelms and overrides the perception of weaker minds, not that they literally concentrate on each and every mind. Psionics require the concentration on individual minds, because telepathy like that involves only minds communicating, etc. But in Star Wars, the whole point of the Sith and Jedi and Dark Jedi's powers are based on the manipulation of the Force. Even the "mind trick" is an indirect influence apon a person's mind. The Force is what is being directly manipulated, if you read the EU interpretations. This is likely how Palpatine hid the burying of Lusankya 17.6 km SSD beneath Coruscant's surface with no one knowing.

That's on page 3.

I suggested the closest thing to any mass-scale manipulation of anything was Jedi Battle Meditation. I called it "equivalent" which is perhaps a misnomer, but I NEVER said C'boath used Battle Meditation. That's a fantasy of your concoction. Thank you for lying and using that lie to prove your assertion that I am the liar.

All I said was that Palpatine probably sent out extremely powerful illusions through the Force that simply overrode the perceptions of the avg. Joe on the street. It seemed quite fantastic someone would suggest that Palpatine concentrated individually on each single mind. It appears we largely agree, and any misperception that got in the way appears to have gotten out of control.

I never said that EU ever overrides the films. Obi-Wan explains how the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic for "a thousand generations" in ANH. Palpatine in AoTC says that he will "not allow this Republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two." That's a percieved contradiction, and the EU cleans it up by explaining that there "this Republic" Palpatine speaks of is the reformed and reorganized government created in the aftermath of the last battle against the Sith on Ruusan 1,000 years before the Empire's Rise to Power. The Old Republic itself never fell, but the government was reformed and the EU explains that's what Palpatine meant by saying "this Republic which has stood for 1,000 years." Obviously it's a percieved error, but the EU cleans up the mess nicely.

You misrepresented me three times and then used that to justify calling me a "bitchboy" and a "liar." You didn't even bother to read the post before this one which shows the quote you fucked up does not support your delusional heirarchy but is fact less specific and I outlined the extent of what Cerasi actually said. He indicated that there were movies, then novelizations of the movies, then EU and explained that as you got further from the movies, from real thing, to "accurate depiction," to outside-movies at all you have to expect less consistency and more speculation on how things work (obviously inherent due to more authors and more data). There's no way to figure out which 100% EU sources are closer to the movies then others. No way he talks about anyway. He said, movies absolute, then talks about how novelizations allow for a grain of difference, and then how EU has to be taken looser because "not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way" for example.

[Illuminatus Primus]

His Divine Shadow: I think C'boath was too insane to do it Palpatine's way, and even if he was, I doubt Thrawn really would like to encourage the idea. He wanted C'boath controlled.

[SirNitram]

Illuminatus, I must admit I'm only replying now because you're funny.

You directly claim Joruus is using Battle Meditation in another thread, claim a sourcebook as your proof, but when smacked down here, claim you never said such.

You directly claim, earlier in this very thread, canon can be overruled and 'corrected' by lesser material, and then say you aren't.

Is it possible for you to pass the basic requirement of self-consistancy?

[Illuminatus Primus]

C'boath was using the Dark Side equivalent of Jedi Battle Meditation. Jedi ARE CAPABLE OF and HAVE USED huge-scale Force manipulation of matter, natural forces, and minds.

I said equivalent, I should have said counterpart, but I never said C'boath used Jedi Battle Meditation. There's a reason he obviously wouldn't use JEDI Battle Meditation.

You do realize I was trying to make the point that while the Sith are more likely to use malevolent powers to sieze control of the Feddies, the Jedi were not the case-by-case inferiors of the Sith.

Joruus controlled every person there. Read the passage. It is NOT Battle Meditation, a power I am intimately familiar with. Battle Meditation offers no control, simply amping up the skills of those present and crippling those of the opposition.

Notice how I never said that C'boath was using Battle Meditation, I implied it was a rough analog of that Jedi power, although far more controlling and malevolent, obviously.

Not mentioning how your "intimate familiarity" is based on RPG stats which are bullshit regardless, but you shoot down the Sourcebook's background info when it contradicts some dialogue which supports your position.

Hypocrite. Where's your self-consistency?

According to your "intimate familiarity," the Sourcebooks' gameplay mechanics override the original comic depiction in your delusional mind, making the canon definition by your own words "boosting stat bonuses" yet Thrawn's quote is sactoscant over numerous quotes from Sourcebooks and the Chronology and you even make up your own canon heirarchy only remotely related to the said quote (which you butchered in paraphrasing, unsuprisingly) to justify your horseshit. You're a fucking liar.

I also find it interesting you can't read. You engage in strawman obsessively and lie openly. Shit, just look at the quotes from the original thread. You couldn't help but misrepresent me in the first fucking refutation you fucking made.

I said they were related powers, says so in several Sourcebooks outright, including the Dark Side Sourcebook. I didn't say they were the same thing, that's retarded.

You misrepresented me then too, and I clearly pointed out you were mistaken on what I meant in one of our initial posts. This isn't crap I made up this late in the game. You're not making new shit up either, you're just sticking by your original lies.

What I originally said:

1.) I remark how the closest equivalent to what C'boath did was Jedi Battle Meditation

2.) I remark how Thrawn's statement should be considered at least partial hyperbole because quotes in the Chronology and Sourcebooks suggest that the supposed Dark Side influence wasn't important to warrant mentioning and Palpatine was setting up a system where the Dark Side would rule in the future anyway, so why would he do that if he already could.


You're response(s):

1.) Say I said that C'boath practiced Battle Meditation and insult me for that invented stupidity; cite superior knowledge based on RPG game mechanics that apparently override the original canon source for the thing.

Strawman, ad homenim.

2.) Claim I'm ignoring things and poisoning the well when I have several quotes contradicting Thrawn's opinion, which you suddenly change your tone and do a 180 degree reversal from your earlier bs about the Sourcebooks (and one of my quotes wasn't Sourcebook anyway, but you ignored that) and say I can't use my quotes because they don't follow a heirarchy which is made by you and defines which EU is "closer to the movies" in a manner that convienently supports your argument. No such deferenciation between seperate EU is made in the Cerasi quote, and when I point this out, I get called a liar and accused of poisoning the well. You changed your story and reversed your entire belief throughout the debate.

Red herring, outright lies, 180 degree reversal of prior beliefs, ad homenim when issue and methods are disagreed with.

Fuck you, you little bastard. Any inconsistency I made is to be expected with the length of this monster you perpetuated with your lies, reversals, and bullshit. You consistently show no evidence after the original point you made and just attack me when I believe otherwise. You put Sourcebook RPG mechanics over the comic, then later put a Thrawn dialogue quote over Sourcebook background and accuse me of poisoning the well when I say that's horseshit and not even derived from the Cerasi quote at all. I just showed it wasn't and you sit there and suprise: make ad homenim attacks. I'm done with this shit. I'm not going to argue with you while you bullshit and lie and generally be a sore-losing little bitch.

[Illuminatus Primus]

C'boath was using the Dark Side equivalent of Jedi Battle Meditation. Jedi ARE CAPABLE OF and HAVE USED huge-scale Force manipulation of matter, natural forces, and minds.

I said equivalent, I should have said counterpart, but I never said C'boath used Jedi Battle Meditation. There's a reason he obviously wouldn't use JEDI Battle Meditation.

You do realize I was trying to make the point that while the Sith are more likely to use malevolent powers to sieze control of the Feddies, the Jedi were not the case-by-case inferiors of the Sith.

Joruus controlled every person there. Read the passage. It is NOT Battle Meditation, a power I am intimately familiar with. Battle Meditation offers no control, simply amping up the skills of those present and crippling those of the opposition.

Notice how I never said that C'boath was using Battle Meditation, I implied it was a rough analog of that Jedi power, although far more controlling and malevolent, obviously.

Not mentioning how your "intimate familiarity" is based on RPG stats which are bullshit regardless, but you shoot down the Sourcebook's background info when it contradicts some dialogue which supports your position.

Hypocrite. Where's your self-consistency?

According to your "intimate familiarity," the Sourcebooks' gameplay mechanics override the original comic depiction in your delusional mind, making the canon definition by your own words "boosting stat bonuses" yet Thrawn's quote is sactoscant over numerous quotes from Sourcebooks and the Chronology and you even make up your own canon heirarchy only remotely related to the said quote (which you butchered in paraphrasing, unsuprisingly) to justify your horseshit. You're a fucking liar.

I also find it interesting you can't read. You engage in strawman obsessively and lie openly. Shit, just look at the quotes from the original thread. You couldn't help but misrepresent me in the first fucking refutation you fucking made.

I said they were related powers, says so in several Sourcebooks outright, including the Dark Side Sourcebook. I didn't say they were the same thing, that's retarded.

You misrepresented me then too, and I clearly pointed out you were mistaken on what I meant in one of our initial posts. This isn't crap I made up this late in the game. You're not making new shit up either, you're just sticking by your original lies.

What I originally said:

1.) I remark how the closest equivalent to what C'boath did was Jedi Battle Meditation

2.) I remark how Thrawn's statement should be considered at least partial hyperbole because quotes in the Chronology and Sourcebooks suggest that the supposed Dark Side influence wasn't important to warrant mentioning and Palpatine was setting up a system where the Dark Side would rule in the future anyway, so why would he do that if he already could.


You're response(s):

1.) Say I said that C'boath practiced Battle Meditation and insult me for that invented stupidity; cite superior knowledge based on RPG game mechanics that apparently override the original canon source for the thing.

Strawman, ad homenim.

2.) Claim I'm ignoring things and poisoning the well when I have several quotes contradicting Thrawn's opinion, which you suddenly change your tone and do a 180 degree reversal from your earlier bs about the Sourcebooks (and one of my quotes wasn't Sourcebook anyway, but you ignored that) and say I can't use my quotes because they don't follow a heirarchy which is made by you and defines which EU is "closer to the movies" in a manner that convienently supports your argument. No such deferenciation between seperate EU is made in the Cerasi quote, and when I point this out, I get called a liar and accused of poisoning the well. You changed your story and reversed your entire belief throughout the debate.

Red herring, outright lies, 180 degree reversal of prior beliefs, ad homenim when issue and methods are disagreed with.

Fuck you, you little bastard. Any inconsistency I made is to be expected with the length of this monster you perpetuated with your lies, reversals, and bullshit. You consistently show no evidence after the original point you made and just attack me when I believe otherwise. You put Sourcebook RPG mechanics over the comic, then later put a Thrawn dialogue quote over Sourcebook background and accuse me of poisoning the well when I say that's horseshit and not even derived from the Cerasi quote at all. I just showed it wasn't and you sit there and suprise: make ad homenim attacks. I'm done with this shit. I'm not going to argue with you while you bullshit and lie and generally be a sore-losing little bitch.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Shit, boards not working. Forget double post.

[His Divine Shadow]

The canonicity hierarchy is valid though, as Sansweet said, a perfect example would the ICS and Darksaber incident that so many 'tards use to try and disprove 200GT TL's.
The ICS is based directly of the movie, the Darksaber is an EU novel thats incredibly far from the movies in contrast.
If you want to claim a contradiction, that means Darksaber, not ICS, get's shafted.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yeah, but HDS, he was pitting Sourcebook against novel which both have equally nothing to do with the movies themselves.

Not to mention I also brought up the Chronology.

In practice, it works on a much vaguer and rougher analog of that heirarchy, but the Cerasi quote is really just seperating movies, secondary accounts of the movies (arguably this could include the ICS anyway), and the non-Infinities EU. I clearly showed how he made transition throughout the statement from each of these to the other.

My point was there's no basis for disregarding the Sourcebook over novel dialogue in the Cerasi quote.

Why is Thrawn's opinions infalliable? Even if we love the character, he was not their during the events he described and several other sources including those from the non-biased 3rd person omniscient perspective propose alternative explanations in direct contrast.

Moreover, we place Trek character quotes in context all the time, and the most famous example of hyperbole on thier part is the "Outrageous Okana" quote on lasers.

Why is the same fitting-into-context (with other sources and the situation) of this quote so abominable?

[Publius]

Interestingly, Admiral Thrawn's conclusion -- that the Emperor's death did cause a significant psychological effect upon the Imperial forces -- is partially supported by superior evidence:

For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding Destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos.

Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblins came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruptions of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel cruisers -- smelling fear in the enemy -- merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive.

For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected -- this was simply where it led.

Confusion.

Desperation.

Damp fear.

The preceding passage is quoted from Ch. IX of Return of the Jedi; while it provides evidence in support of Admiral Thrawn's conclusion, it does tend to refute his reasoning. The novelisation indicates that the pyschological breakdown of the Imperial forces at Endor was caused by the diffusion of the dark side, no longer controlled by the Emperor, rather than the loss of coordinated influence by the Emperor.

It appears, then, that based on this passage, Admiral Thrawn's reasoning was faulty. That does not, however, mean that his conclusion is also incorrect; it is possible for poor reasoning to result in a valid conclusion.

That is not to say, however, that the Emperor is unable to do what Admiral Thrawn supposed he did; remember that, according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook, the Emperor was actively siphoning off life energy (a fairly nebulous concept) from the 19.7 billions of inhabitants of Byss. Strictly speaking, it is likely that if he were able to sustain such an effort on that order of magnitude, it should be possible for him to have done what Admiral Thrawn supposed.

Of course, strictly speaking, it is also possible to interpret the cited text as being supportive both of Admiral Thrawn's reasoning and of his conclusion. The reference to the Emperor as the "cohesive force to the Empire" could very easily be taken either as supporting the institutional failsafe idea or the borg-implant idea.

And, logically, there is no reason that one, both, or either is true, or that one, both, or either is untrue. It is perfectly possible that the Empire collapsed because it was designed to do so, and because it lacked the sustaining influence of the Emperor.

Publius

[Illuminatus Primus]

The voice of reason. I concede to Publius.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I do however believed that Palpatine's death was the reason for the Empire's collapse.

I just didn't agree with the "Borg-implant" concept for it.

[Vympel]

How did this become a debate about canon anyway? I couldn't really spot it.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Don't you know all starwars vs. star trek debates eventually decend into either cannonicity, or Discussions about the tits of (Amidalia, Seven of Nine, Dax or Hoshi)

[JAKJ]

1. Genesis Torpedo. Sure its a pity that the planet self destructs, but that doesn't change the fact that one small torpedo can reform the matter of a planet, or death star.

2. Trilithium Torpedo. I know Generations wasn't that great, and Malcolm McDowell hasn't been doing to much since Caligula , But one torpedo can take out any star, making the deat star look like a waste of time. And no crap about them not being able to build one, Geordi and Data took detailed scans of the Torpedo.

3. Delivery- Pegasus Phase cloak.
Ok Star Wars claims to have the ability to detect cloaked vessels. So what!! then can look at a phased cloaked ship all they like... well right up until is launches either of the above to weapons. Infact, why not a phase cloak on the weapons themselves. In the Peagasus episode the cloaking device was small, and only a prototype. So you could have the weapons phase cloaked right before they hit their target, no chance of shooting them down.

Pity about your lovely empire, wasting so much time on massive dinasaurs, which are rendered obsolete by a few little torpedos.

[Isolder74]

1. Genesis Torpedo. Sure its a pity that the planet self destructs, but that doesn't change the fact that one small torpedo can reform the matter of a planet, or death star.

2. Trilithium Torpedo. I know Generations wasn't that great, and Malcolm McDowell hasn't been doing to much since Caligula , But one torpedo can take out any star, making the deat star look like a waste of time. And no crap about them not being able to build one, Geordi and Data took detailed scans of the Torpedo.

3. Delivery- Pegasus Phase cloak.
Ok Star Wars claims to have the ability to detect cloaked vessels. So what!! then can look at a phased cloaked ship all they like... well right up until is launches either of the above to weapons. Infact, why not a phase cloak on the weapons themselves. In the Peagasus episode the cloaking device was small, and only a prototype. So you could have the weapons phase cloaked right before they hit their target, no chance of shooting them down.

Pity about your lovely empire, wasting so much time on massive dinasaurs, which are rendered obsolete by a few little torpedos.

How does simply scanning something allow you to know how to build it? even the best scan can't tell you how the cicuitry is set up. I know alort about reverse engineering and it is practically impossible to reverse engineer anything with out taking it apart. BTW I'm a Real engineer

[His Divine Shadow]

1. Genesis Torpedo. Sure its a pity that the planet self destructs, but that doesn't change the fact that one small torpedo can reform the matter of a planet, or death star.

It's also lost technology, it's also unknown wheter it could hurt a Deathstar, given that a DS has shields, and therefore no matter for the genesis reaction to interact with.

2. Trilithium Torpedo. I know Generations wasn't that great, and Malcolm McDowell hasn't been doing to much since Caligula , But one torpedo can take out any star, making the deat star look like a waste of time. And no crap about them not being able to build one, Geordi and Data took detailed scans of the Torpedo.

Which means what? Nothing, thats right.
So they don't have it, who cares, the Empire has it's quantum resonance torpedoes, unlike the trilithium torpedoes

In the Peagasus episode the cloaking device was small, and only a prototype. So you could have the weapons phase cloaked right before they hit their target, no chance of shooting them down.

No proof it'll go through shielding, there is still gravitational and chemical and EM interaction with the real universe, there is also a phasing rate, which was supposed to be adequate to get through rock, can't see it going through dense warship armor or shields, or being totally invulnerable to enemy fire either since it interacts, alibeit limitedly with realspace energies.

Pity about your lovely empire, wasting so much time on massive dinasaurs, which are rendered obsolete by a few little torpedos

Pity that your communist regime's little non-existant toys aren't going to help it survive.
A real pity you had to end with a useless insult you little fucktard.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Speaking about this torpedo envy problem with the feds

oh, yeah we have millions of these lost tech phascloaked trilithium genisis torpedo
fap,fap,fap.fap.*groan* "oh seven", fap, fap, fap. fap.fap.fap.*Splort*


Clean up isle three.

lost tech doesn't count.

The AQ powers are scred so many different ways that the only hope they have are:

Tholian Web Fields should be able to interdict, but their ships have worse then the one shot one kills the Empire or any Pirate group could get on the AQ powers.

The Orions or the Ferengi would probably make a deal, and the Alpha Quad criminal enterprises would continue. (Like the CSA in the Empire)

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I just find it funny that he managed to mispell "dinosaurs".

[The Yosemite Bear]

Yeah, given the apparent age judging by the post content, grammer and spelling, my refrance to an X-rated subject may have just blown his mind and sent him running back to mommy.

[Frank Hipper]

Speaking about this torpedo envy problem with the feds

oh, yeah we have millions of these lost tech phascloaked trilithium genisis torpedo
fap,fap,fap.fap.*groan* "oh seven", fap, fap, fap. fap.fap.fap.*Splort*


Clean up isle three.

Brav-o, I'm still laughing. Considering his username, it's funnier still.

[NecronLord]

He probably thinks that trek could beat the Necrons and C'tan.

[His Divine Shadow]

He probably thinks that trek could beat the Necrons and C'tan.

Sure they could, ewoks too!

[Darth PhysBod]

The canonicity hierarchy is valid though, as Sansweet said, a perfect example would the ICS and Darksaber incident that so many 'tards use to try and disprove 200GT TL's.
The ICS is based directly of the movie, the Darksaber is an EU novel thats incredibly far from the movies in contrast.
If you want to claim a contradiction, that means Darksaber, not ICS, get's shafted.

I'snt the Nar Shaddaa operation in the Darksaber novel?.

If so then that's the one where using 3 dreadnoughts and 4 Bulkcruisers, the Imperials were going to "raze the entire moon" in an operation lasting only 15 minutes (the only reason they didn't is due to revised orders, ordering them to fail the operation).

I remember a lot of people on Sb.com focusing on the "mop up operations" it mentions, ignoring that Nar Shaddaa has a population of 72-95 Billion (Sw Encylopedia) and is completely covered with a "vertical city" with multi Km structures "protected by often-malfunctioning shields."

That doesn't contradict ICS it actually supports it

[NecronLord]

He probably thinks that trek could beat the Necrons and C'tan.

Sure they could, ewoks too!

You are joking right, tell me you are joking?

[haas mark]

*dons flame-retardant suit*

Berman & Braga