The vs. of Values and Tactics

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-02-21 04:25pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Actually, it is their strategic concepts on how to use force. Don't blame the change in tech level for things like the Federation's well known lack of such concepts as combined arms. That is a huge, pervasive weakness, which you choose to either ignore or minimize in favor of local errors.

And how do we know the TOS Federation doesn't know about combined arms? Because Starfleet doesn't have them? Why in God's name SHOULD a NAVY have combined arms? It's totally unneccessary! Does anybody today complain about how the US Navy doesn't have tanks and heavy artillery (aside from their ship-mounted guns) at its disposal?
The problem with the TNG Federation isn't that Starfleet lacks combined arms, it's that Starfleet is used to perform duties that anybody remotely sane would tell you was the Army's job.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-21 07:55pm

TNG Federation isn't that Starfleet lacks combined arms

Um, no.

DS9 Federation in AR-559 using Federation "troops" couldn't hold off a charge by Jem'Hadar running through a narrow opening.

If that had been TOS Federation, they would have had at the very least more powerful phasers (TOS phasers blow holes through metal, TNG phasers seem to have problems with this). Also, there is alluding to an HMG from Tracy killing "thousands of Yangs". And, they may have even have photon grenades. TOS Federation would have made short work of Jem'Hadar, mines or no mines.

Brian

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-02-21 08:48pm

brianeyci wrote:DS9 Federation in AR-559 using Federation "troops" couldn't hold off a charge by Jem'Hadar running through a narrow opening.

TNG Starfleet officers are actually adequately armed for what they're supposed to be doing, namely piloting spacecraft. They should never have been used the way they were at AR-559. That was a job the army.

Rhoades · Post by **Rhoades** » 2005-02-21 08:51pm

Junghalli wrote: TNG Starfleet officers are actually adequately armed for what they're supposed to be doing, namely piloting spacecraft. They should never have been used the way they were at AR-559. That was a job the army.

But they were, which brings up the question: Where is the 'Federation Army'?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-21 09:00pm

Junghalli wrote: TNG Starfleet officers are actually adequately armed for what they're supposed to be doing, namely piloting spacecraft. They should never have been used the way they were at AR-559. That was a job the army.

The soldiers in AR-559 were referred to as "Federation troops" and "troop replacements". This is the Federation's army alright. Even if it isn't, the point is made that a navy being used in place of an army is an army except by name. TOS "army" would have kicked those Jem'Hadar's ass.

Brian

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-02-22 04:07am

brianeyci wrote:
TNG Federation isn't that Starfleet lacks combined arms
Um, no.

DS9 Federation in AR-559 using Federation "troops" couldn't hold off a charge by Jem'Hadar running through a narrow opening.

If that had been TOS Federation, they would have had at the very least more powerful phasers (TOS phasers blow holes through metal, TNG phasers seem to have problems with this). Also, there is alluding to an HMG from Tracy killing "thousands of Yangs". And, they may have even have photon grenades. TOS Federation would have made short work of Jem'Hadar, mines or no mines.

Brian

Yes. The TOS federation would have slaughtered the Jems at AR-559. It is pretty much a given that Tracy was able to kill the Yangs by sweeping the beam from side to side on kill, simulating an automatic weapon and that this is part of their training. Furthermore, photon mortars would have cleared that valley nicely, and given the lack of cover approaching the base, the Jem Hadar would have been slaughtered horribly.

The only question is really, would they have been able to do anything about the houdinis.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-02-22 07:33am

I don't put much faith in SF military leadership, or to attemps to compare leaders specially if said leaders are from different settings. I've always hated how in every fucking time our rebellious "I don't need no regulations" young hot shot is always saving the day, or the fact that people go around disobeying orders every two seconds, and are not punished for it.
It shows most writers don't have the slightest clue how militaries are supposed to work.

-Gunhead

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-22 08:58am

NecronLord wrote:The only question is really, would they have been able to do anything about the houdinis.

TOS morale would not be so shitty that fifty to a hundred losses over several months would be fatal. If Kirk going after the Gorn is standard SF military training, TOS military would have gone on the offensive after realizing defending was ridiculous because of the mines.

Brian

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-02-22 09:11am

Gunhead wrote:I don't put much faith in SF military leadership, or to attemps to compare leaders specially if said leaders are from different settings. I've always hated how in every fucking time our rebellious "I don't need no regulations" young hot shot is always saving the day, or the fact that people go around disobeying orders every two seconds, and are not punished for it.
It shows most writers don't have the slightest clue how militaries are supposed to work.

-Gunhead

This is not true of either the Empire or Starfleet.

The idea with Kirk is that he is far away from his CO, not that he is insubordinate. Starfleet command is rarely in contact with him, he operates beyond Federation space. When he actually does disobey orders, you will note that he is demoted several ranks for it, even though he managed to save earth and keep Genesis data away from the Klingons.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-02-22 09:13am

brianeyci wrote:TOS morale would not be so shitty that fifty to a hundred losses over several months would be fatal. If Kirk going after the Gorn is standard SF military training, TOS military would have gone on the offensive after realizing defending was ridiculous because of the mines.

Brian

They have to defend it, in order to analyse the communications terminal.

And I'm not sure how much it actually is standard training, as you will note that Spock disputed his actions.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-22 09:26am

NecronLord wrote:They have to defend it, in order to analyse the communications terminal.

Once you go on the offensive and kill all the Jem'Hadar, you can analyse all you want.

And I'm not sure how much it actually is standard training, as you will note that Spock disputed his actions.

Spock is a pacifist, and even he said "then we must make sure they do not reach their home base."

Brian

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-02-22 09:54am

brianeyci wrote: Once you go on the offensive and kill all the Jem'Hadar, you can analyse all you want.

The minefield is still there. Which is kind of the point. TOS doesn't have the technobabble to reveal the mines.

Spock is a pacifist, and even he said "then we must make sure they do not reach their home base."

Brian

A better example of TOS aggressiveness is The Alternative Factor, where they conclude that a dangerous artifially created spacial phonomenon is likely a prelude to invasion.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-22 10:14am

NecronLord wrote:The minefield is still there. Which is kind of the point. TOS doesn't have the technobabble to reveal the mines.

The mines sucked.

Main Site wrote:The Federation unit lost a total of 107 soldiers over five months (roughly 150 days) while walking around in the minefield! If you do the math, you'll find that the attrition rate was roughly 0.7 soldiers per day, from both the minefield and repeated Jem'Hadar attacks! If the enemy can hold territory against enemy attacks and suffer less than 1 casualty per day, he should consider himself lucky. This attrition rate does not speak well of either Jem'Hadar soldiers or the minefield.

So unless the Jem'Hadar have a way to remote detonate the mines like the Feds did in the cavern, it wouldn't hurt the Federation attack. Besides, the only reason AR-558 troops were able to disable the mines is because of the character shields of the mains. They didn't have any engineers with them. Since DS9 had Ezrai, TOS gets Scotty. TOS still has subspace, and the mines were hidden in subspace.

Also they get Kirk instead of Sisko. Preferably the ripped shirt version.

A better example of TOS aggressiveness is The Alternative Factor, where they conclude that a dangerous artifially created spacial phonomenon is likely a prelude to invasion.

Good.

Brian

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-02-22 02:14pm

brianeyci wrote:The mines sucked.
So unless the Jem'Hadar have a way to remote detonate the mines like the Feds did in the cavern, it wouldn't hurt the Federation attack. Besides, the only reason AR-558 troops were able to disable the mines is because of the character shields of the mains. They didn't have any engineers with them. Since DS9 had Ezrai, TOS gets Scotty. TOS still has subspace, and the mines were hidden in subspace.

They still pose a threat to teams working on the communications system, though not a significant military threat.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-02-22 02:28pm

Junghalli wrote:
brianeyci wrote:DS9 Federation in AR-559 using Federation "troops" couldn't hold off a charge by Jem'Hadar running through a narrow opening.
TNG Starfleet officers are actually adequately armed for what they're supposed to be doing, namely piloting spacecraft. They should never have been used the way they were at AR-559. That was a job the army.

Show that the Federation even has an army, every single instance, from TOS to VOY shows that Starfleet is the be all and end all of the Federation military. The pajama clad yellow shirts are what passes for an army. There is not a single instance of Federation heavy artillery, heavy or light armored vehicles, their air support are Hoppers as best we can tell, and their troops lack even such basics as body armor.

Go watch TMP and you will see Enterprise security personnel in full body armor. That disappears between TOS and TNG.

The Dominion War is where we should see the Federation militray in action and what do we see? Starfleet. When Cardassia is occupied what do we see? Starfleet officers. When Earth is occupied in the coup attempt what do we see? Starfleet cadets in the streets with rifles.

There is no army. There is no air force. Starfleet is it.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-02-23 02:32am

This is not true of either the Empire or Starfleet.

The idea with Kirk is that he is far away from his CO, not that he is insubordinate. Starfleet command is rarely in contact with him, he operates beyond Federation space. When he actually does disobey orders, you will note that he is demoted several ranks for it, even though he managed to save earth and keep Genesis data away from the Klingons.

Oh yeah, that's true.
Maybe it's just me, but I do get the feeling it's always the hot shot know it alls that prove themselves correct over conventional military thinking. This specially annoys me in SW where the Empire has taken hold of the galaxy, which to me kinda says in addition to having the resources they also have superior doctrine. This little gripe goes hand in hand with "must invent a loophole so the good guys can win". I'd like to see the good guys getting their asses handed to them every once and a while. Not in this "First the baddies are winning but then our heroes save the day from the brink of destruction" kinda way.

-Gunhead

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-02-23 09:07am

Gunhead wrote:Oh yeah, that's true.
Maybe it's just me, but I do get the feeling it's always the hot shot know it alls that prove themselves correct over conventional military thinking. This specially annoys me in SW where the Empire has taken hold of the galaxy, which to me kinda says in addition to having the resources they also have superior doctrine. This little gripe goes hand in hand with "must invent a loophole so the good guys can win". I'd like to see the good guys getting their asses handed to them every once and a while. Not in this "First the baddies are winning but then our heroes save the day from the brink of destruction" kinda way.

-Gunhead

The empire took over the galaxy because there were no effective rivals, and those who could have stood up to Palpy were too war-weary to care. Military doctrine doesn't come into it.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2005-02-23 11:09am

NecronLord wrote: The empire took over the galaxy because there were no effective rivals, and those who could have stood up to Palpy were too war-weary to care. Military doctrine doesn't come into it.

So the Jedi and Separatists weren't effective rivals? And don't give me any BS about them being defeated so they must not have been because they were defeated by the Old Republic/Empire's superior military doctrine.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-02-23 11:21am

Actually scaring people into submission without actually fighting is an excellent doctrine. I think Tarkin said it first "Rule by threat of force rather than by force". This conserves troops, and with continuous build up you can intimidate anyone. Downside is of course you end up with an inexperienced sluggish force that can't respond quickly. By the time of New Hope your junior officers are all inexperienced because there isn't an enemy to fight.

Would explain why the rebels were so successful at eluding the empire. Small force, lots of action.Weeds out the non hackers. Those who survive lear pretty quickly.

-Gunhead

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-02-23 11:50am

NRS Guardian wrote:So the Jedi

Largely dead by the time of the New Order

and Separatists

Run by Palpatine. Also dead by the proclamation of the New Order.

Any questions?

Mad · Post by **Mad** » 2005-02-23 11:52am

The topic has kind of drifted, but I wanted to address this:

NecronLord wrote:Okay. Name me an Imperial Victory against an opponent they don't hideously outnumber and hold all the technical advantages against. In fact, name me an Imperial Victory other than Hoth.

Nothing explicit, but there is the opening crawl to A New Hope:

A New Hope wrote:Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.

Unless this was their first conflict, that would mean that none of the prior conflicts can be considered a victory for the Rebellion. (At least, none of the major ones.)

We also have the opening crawl to ESB:

The Empire Strikes Back wrote:It is a dark time for the Rebellion [...] Imperial troops have driven the Rebel forces from their hidden base and pursued them across the galaxy.

Continually being pursued, again, suggests that the Rebels again faced a string of defeats and retreats.

Now, it is possible that all the conflicts mentioned were lose-lose situations for everyone involved. But, considering that an Imperial argued that the Rebellion is "more of a threat than you realize," it would seem that at least until the destruction of the first Death Star, there haven't been much in the way of Imperial losses.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-02-23 12:11pm

They hideously outnumbered and outgunned the rebellion.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-02-23 12:31pm

Back to topic.

In space combat higher tech and superior numbers carry the day, if you can get both that's a bonus. Where in land combat you can even the odds by use of terrain and so on, in space there usually is no terrain to speak of. Planets and other stellar objects can be used to hide stuff, but once the shooting starts he who has more has the edge.

-Gunhead

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2005-02-23 02:13pm

A comment about the under-militarization of the Galactic Empire. Historically, I don't think there has been a single Empire that hasn't been under-militarized. I f you can think of one tell me. Here's a few examples: the Persian empire had 70 million people, yet their military was only about a million men at best. The Roman Empire ruled 80-100 million yet at its height only had a military of 300,000-500,000 men. The Macedonians conquered the 70 million people of the Persian empire with only 50,000-100,000 men. So it is actually quite common for empires to be "under-militarized" because they don't have any real competition. Few or no external threats means less need for there to be a massive, costly, fully mobilized military, especially when you can be nearly as safe with a much smaller force.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-02-23 02:22pm

I think when people think of uber-militirization it is in comparison to the Old Republic. This was a body that had little to no military at all. Think about it, the Trade Federation was reduced to converting cargo haulers into battleships because they had no indigenous naval force. They did not hijack Old Republic naval vessels stationed in their system nor did they have their own naval force.

The OR seemed to completely rely on the Jedi as force projection. Windu had to remind the Chancellor that they were Peace Keepers not soldiers so they couldn't fight a war.

The creation of the Grand Army of the Republic in AOTC seems to suggest that there was little to no standing army in the Republic. The Separatists seemed to be under the impression that they could dictate terms with the army they had on Geonosis.

So when you look at it in those terms the GE is an uber-militarized Empire in comparison to its predeccessor.