KOTOR and EU

[Darth Fenix]

Here's someone's excuse of why KOTOR isn't canon. Is it right?

1.) The term Darth was not made until 3,000 years later with Darth Bane.

2.) The Master and Apprentice rule was not thought of until 3,000 years later with Darth Bane.

3.) Released years before were The Tales of the Jedi comica that take place 5,000-3,900 years before the movies. The game tramples over them like they never existed, despite them being established long before. Like so:

-------A. The technology in the game is too advanced for that time period in the Star Wars timeline because just 40 years eariler, which is when the comics take place the technology is a lot more ancient and primative (in comparison to the movies) while still having the Star Wars theme. KoTOR has tech the same as a period 4,000 years later.

-------B. In the comics the Sith Lord Exar Kun waged a war against the Jedi and eventually was defeated after a long and very costly conflict. In the EU timeline after the Exar Kun war which is know as "The Great Sith War" there is a time of relative everlasting peace that lasts for 3,000 years until Darth Bane. During this time there is no signifigant war, and the Sith are virtually wiped out. The next major war occurs with the Republic & Seperatists. In the movies.

-------C. The Mandolorians were wiped out. In the already established EU the Mandolorians are practically obliterated save for a few remaing ones and for just 20 years after Exar Kun's death for them to have a huge militay machine...well, it only happens in an Infinity.

-------D. Ok, what is the deal with all of the Jedi being wiped out save a few? There are so many reasons why that is wrong. It's still a great game, and set in the SW universe. But it contradicts many existing facts, and thus is an Infinity.

4.) Kolto is not right. In the Star Wars universe Bacta is the only widespread agent used for healing and used in med pacs, Bioware made up Kolto out of thin air.

5.) The planets are almost all completely wrong. Tatooine was not settled by outside people until many many years later. Korriban was screwed up, etc

6.) The Rakatan Empire: believe it or not the Star Wars timeline dates beack 10s of thousands of years before the movies. If such Rakatan Empire existed 25,000 years before the movies many races, species, governments, and empires would never have existed account to its "Infinate Empire" and its slavation to every other race.

Q: -I- just happen to prefer KotoR over the 40+ novels, and 10+ comica series.

A: You can choose to say, despite the evidence all around you, that KotoR happened within the timeline. You certainly have the right to be ignorant...which is what you are being. Just be aware you trample over long established EU story and parts of the very Sith culture established by George Lucas himself from the movies. Just cause he gets a few hundred thousand dollars and slaps a logo onto a game doesn't make it mesh. It makes it a SW-based game.

.

Finally, the official SW timeline is simple. Grab the Unifying Force from your bookstore. Look at the inside cover. Observe all the books laid out in a timeline. Now add all the comics, since they don't contradict this timeline. Now, some games do actually mesh. Keyan Farlander & Kyle Katarn are official EU....and they came from games that worked with it, instead of trampling over it. Sorry KotoR fans, while its a great game, it isn't EU.
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[Lord Revan]

Here's someone's excuse of why KOTOR isn't canon. Is it right?

snip

well I can't as I can't tell how much of this fact and not something he assumes to be fact.

[Vympel]

Here's someone's excuse of why KOTOR isn't canon. Is it right?

Problem #1: "canon" is a loaded term. I guess he means it's not part of the continuity.

1.) The term Darth was not made until 3,000 years later with Darth Bane.

Who's to say that's only as far as recorded history went, and Darth was actually used before this?

2.) The Master and Apprentice rule was not thought of until 3,000 years later with Darth Bane.

As above, though from my playing both KOTOR and KOTOR 2, I see no evidence of such a rule in existence. Sith take on one apprentice, but they have legions of followers, dark side force users.

3.) Released years before were The Tales of the Jedi comica that take place 5,000-3,900 years before the movies. The game tramples over them like they never existed, despite them being established long before. Like so:

-------A. The technology in the game is too advanced for that time period in the Star Wars timeline because just 40 years eariler, which is when the comics take place the technology is a lot more ancient and primative (in comparison to the movies) while still having the Star Wars theme. KoTOR has tech the same as a period 4,000 years later.

He must prove this assertion, not simply say it is so.

-------B. In the comics the Sith Lord Exar Kun waged a war against the Jedi and eventually was defeated after a long and very costly conflict. In the EU timeline after the Exar Kun war which is know as "The Great Sith War" there is a time of relative everlasting peace that lasts for 3,000 years until Darth Bane. During this time there is no signifigant war, and the Sith are virtually wiped out. The next major war occurs with the Republic & Seperatists. In the movies.

Who says there was a time of relative ever lasting peace? War turns the pages of history, not peace. Any actual *lack* of conflict mentioned in those 3,000 years should simply be chalked up to gaps in the historical record.

-------C. The Mandolorians were wiped out. In the already established EU the Mandolorians are practically obliterated save for a few remaing ones and for just 20 years after Exar Kun's death for them to have a huge militay machine...well, it only happens in an Infinity.

He must prove this, not simply assert it is so.

-------D. Ok, what is the deal with all of the Jedi being wiped out save a few? There are so many reasons why that is wrong. It's still a great game, and set in the SW universe. But it contradicts many existing facts, and thus is an Infinity.

So many reaons why that is wrong ... but ... not one named?

4.) Kolto is not right. In the Star Wars universe Bacta is the only widespread agent used for healing and used in med pacs, Bioware made up Kolto out of thin air.

This guy's rapidly turning into an idiot. Just because they make up another widespread healing agent does not mean it is not part of the continuity. EU authors make up shit all the time. This guy is one of those typical fanatics, who has his own set view of what the SW history is and anything that changes that view is attacked as "false" simply because that's not what he thought.

And besides, to assert that bacta is the ONLY widespread agent used for healing is incredibly dumb on its face.

5.) The planets are almost all completely wrong. Tatooine was not settled by outside people until many many years later. Korriban was screwed up, etc

Unsupported assertion. Again. KOTOR specifically tates that Tatooine was settled, abandoned, and resettled many, many times. Any appeals to "but Tatooine wasn't settled until later"- which are unproven- must take this fact into account.

6.) The Rakatan Empire: believe it or not the Star Wars timeline dates beack 10s of thousands of years before the movies. If such Rakatan Empire existed 25,000 years before the movies many races, species, governments, and empires would never have existed account to its "Infinate Empire" and its slavation to every other race.

This guy IS a bloody idiot. That obviously DID NOT happen, firstly, and second, the Ratakan Empire was not some massive galaxy spanning organization. It controlled barely a hundred or so systems, IIRC. This guy simply says "I think this fallen Empire would have this effect" and expects us to treat that as reasoning.

Q: -I- just happen to prefer KotoR over the 40+ novels, and 10+ comica series.

A: You can choose to say, despite the evidence all around you, that KotoR happened within the timeline. You certainly have the right to be ignorant...which is what you are being. Just be aware you trample over long established EU story and parts of the very Sith culture established by George Lucas himself from the movies. Just cause he gets a few hundred thousand dollars and slaps a logo onto a game doesn't make it mesh. It makes it a SW-based game.

As shown, this guy is the ignorant one. He simply has his own personal vision, and anything new that upsets that vision, he attacks.

Finally, the official SW timeline is simple. Grab the Unifying Force from your bookstore. Look at the inside cover. Observe all the books laid out in a timeline. Now add all the comics, since they don't contradict this timeline. Now, some games do actually mesh. Keyan Farlander & Kyle Katarn are official EU....and they came from games that worked with it, instead of trampling over it. Sorry KotoR fans, while its a great game, it isn't EU.

It is EU until explicitly stated otherwise. I suggest he check Leland Chee (maintainer of the EU holocron) comments about C-canon. Unless it has an INFINITIES label, it's C-canon. Period.

[Lord Revan]

BTW is any evidence (of any kind) that Darth Bane was "the first" to use term the "Darth". At least TPM novelization said only that took the name Darth Bane, but it doesn't say what was his masters name or his own "true" name.

[Lord Revan]

-------C. The Mandolorians were wiped out. In the already established EU the Mandolorians are practically obliterated save for a few remaing ones and for just 20 years after Exar Kun's death for them to have a huge militay machine...well, it only happens in an Infinity.

doesn't KOTOR happen 40 years after the death of Exar Kun (give or take few years and the sith war starts just 2,5 years before KOTOR).

[Ghost Rider]

-------C. The Mandolorians were wiped out. In the already established EU the Mandolorians are practically obliterated save for a few remaing ones and for just 20 years after Exar Kun's death for them to have a huge militay machine...well, it only happens in an Infinity.

doesn't KOTOR happen 40 years after the death of Exar Kun (give or take few years and the sith war starts just 2,5 years before KOTOR).

Maybe a little less, but then again it's referred to as most the older people entering said war, then anyone young.

Nonetheless the idjits claims all in all are of the level of rabid idiot, because he's purposefully shoehorning shit to fit his argument.

As for the Bane argument...Bane was the one said to have instituted the Rule of two, not the Darth Rule actually.

[Petrosjko]

To address a couple of points here.

First of all, the Master and Apprentice business. The latest EU has done some examination on the difference between Sith and Dark Jedi. It has been explicitly stated, for example, that Assaj Ventress is a Dark Jedi and not Sith.

However, in the era of KOTOR, you have a full-fledged Sith Academy on Korriban that teaches Sith lore, while still depicting the existance of Sith master/apprentice relationships.

Therefore, this does not contradict the 'there are always two, master and apprentice' policy of the relatively modern era. If anything, it shows that policy as an outgrowth of the old Sith model as depicted in the game, where they did have multiple masters and apprentices in the Jedi fashion.

Which takes us back to the commonly accepted view that the Sith chopped numbers down to only two to cut down on the intrigue and backstabbing that prevented them from overcoming the Jedi. Then they simply use Dark Jedi in the prequel era as their disposable cannon fodder.

But apparently this guy thinks that having a treacherous master/apprentice dynamic at all in KOTOR is somehow contradictory. It's not. It's just a snapshot of the a different period in the evolution of Sith culture.

On the matter of kolto vs. bacta, the dark side ending of the Mannan storyline implies that the kolto supply has been at the very least damaged and quite possibly destroyed.

If one accepts that ending as the one that becomes incorporated into continuity, then kolto simply becomes unavailable and bacta becomes the primary form of medicine for the GFFA.

Or simply enough refinements in the processing and production of bacta may have made it a better treatment, or more economical to use. The existance of kolto in the game in no way contradicts anything to do with bacta, as has been stated.

Damned fool.

Edit- Occurred to me that there might be somebody out there who hasn't played the game through, so spoiler has been downsized.

[Ghost Rider]

And just because I have the time now.

1.) The term Darth was not made until 3,000 years later with Darth Bane.

No, the Rule of two was. Darth bane took up that name, but it was never said in TPM that he was the absolute first to think up of Darth as his title.

2.) The Master and Apprentice rule was not thought of until 3,000 years later with Darth Bane.

Like Petro pointed, but here's even more clearly. KoTOR never violates this.

Revan and Malak were apprentice and master. Malak gained mastery and made an apprentice, the Sith academy was a training ground for someone new to take it from Malak. They were never the apprentices of Malak...at best disposable fodder lackeys.

3.) Released years before were The Tales of the Jedi comica that take place 5,000-3,900 years before the movies. The game tramples over them like they never existed, despite them being established long before. Like so:

Bullshit given the amount of infor, but let's see his proof.

-------A. The technology in the game is too advanced for that time period in the Star Wars timeline because just 40 years eariler, which is when the comics take place the technology is a lot more ancient and primative (in comparison to the movies) while still having the Star Wars theme. KoTOR has tech the same as a period 4,000 years later.

Supposition, and unfounded.

-------B. In the comics the Sith Lord Exar Kun waged a war against the Jedi and eventually was defeated after a long and very costly conflict. In the EU timeline after the Exar Kun war which is know as "The Great Sith War" there is a time of relative everlasting peace that lasts for 3,000 years until Darth Bane. During this time there is no signifigant war, and the Sith are virtually wiped out. The next major war occurs with the Republic & Seperatists. In the movies.

That because we know of the history decade after decade after the war with Exar Kun because...wait a minute SW never went into that era EXCEPT with Bane which happened millenia afterwards.

-------C. The Mandolorians were wiped out. In the already established EU the Mandolorians are practically obliterated save for a few remaing ones and for just 20 years after Exar Kun's death for them to have a huge militay machine...well, it only happens in an Infinity.

Sorta funny given JANGO had to get their ideals somewhere

And I love how he think because in Exar Kun that Mandalore didn't die that must mean the rest of mandalorians were wiped out.

Just him getting annoyed that they noticed something he didn't.

-------D. Ok, what is the deal with all of the Jedi being wiped out save a few? There are so many reasons why that is wrong. It's still a great game, and set in the SW universe. But it contradicts many existing facts, and thus is an Infinity.

Just more yabbering, and he's not trying to prove something here.

4.) Kolto is not right. In the Star Wars universe Bacta is the only widespread agent used for healing and used in med pacs, Bioware made up Kolto out of thin air.

Like the Mandalorians...gotta love the hubris on this one.

5.) The planets are almost all completely wrong. Tatooine was not settled by outside people until many many years later. Korriban was screwed up, etc

Starting to rate up there with Pablo the moron.

6.) The Rakatan Empire: believe it or not the Star Wars timeline dates beack 10s of thousands of years before the movies. If such Rakatan Empire existed 25,000 years before the movies many races, species, governments, and empires would never have existed account to its "Infinate Empire" and its slavation to every other race.

Given their Empire was about at most 1000 star systems(in a galxy where the GE was a million and Han notes TWELVE MILLION)...someone needs to brush up on something.

Q: -I- just happen to prefer KotoR over the 40+ novels, and 10+ comica series.

A: You can choose to say, despite the evidence all around you, that KotoR happened within the timeline. You certainly have the right to be ignorant...which is what you are being. Just be aware you trample over long established EU story and parts of the very Sith culture established by George Lucas himself from the movies. Just cause he gets a few hundred thousand dollars and slaps a logo onto a game doesn't make it mesh. It makes it a SW-based game.

This one you have to love given the derth of mistakes he's made, he presumes he's not ignorant

.

Finally, the official SW timeline is simple. Grab the Unifying Force from your bookstore. Look at the inside cover. Observe all the books laid out in a timeline. Now add all the comics, since they don't contradict this timeline. Now, some games do actually mesh. Keyan Farlander & Kyle Katarn are official EU....and they came from games that worked with it, instead of trampling over it. Sorry KotoR fans, while its a great game, it isn't EU.

Like a yabbering chicken who never grasped how Offical works.

[Petrosjko]

Q: -I- just happen to prefer KotoR over the 40+ novels, and 10+ comica series.

A: You can choose to say, despite the evidence all around you, that KotoR happened within the timeline. You certainly have the right to be ignorant...which is what you are being. Just be aware you trample over long established EU story and parts of the very Sith culture established by George Lucas himself from the movies. Just cause he gets a few hundred thousand dollars and slaps a logo onto a game doesn't make it mesh. It makes it a SW-based game.

This one you have to love given the derth of mistakes he's made, he presumes he's not ignorant

Especially given his obvious failure to understand how the canon hierarchy works, if the contradiction he claims exists was actually there.

[nightmare]

KOTOR is canon, as in part of continuity. Yes, the game has raised some questions, some of which have been addressed, but just because there are some inconsistencies doesn't mean it all go out, and mind you, most of the "apparent" inconsistencies aren't when you start to check out the details. I would discard almost the entire list you have there right off the bat.

For example, Kolto plants were known as a strong healing agent on Thyferra, the main bacta manufacturer, thousands of years after KOTOR. There is a blank in between. Maybe kolto emigrated to Thyferra on a ship or something. *shrug* The point is that there is no inconsistency. Addendum: only the lightside ending is official part of continuity.

[Lord Revan]

only conflict I've found is KOTOR 2 were there's 7 lightsaber forms, but in other C-canon material it's said thast 7th form was invented by Mace Windu (of course this isn't very bad counterdiction as lots of thing can happen in 4,000 years).

[Stofsk]

The Hero's Guide did *not* state that Mace Windu invented Form VII, only that it was his chosen style of combat. That is the only RPG source I know that covers it, and really all it says is "Form VII, difficult to master, very unpredictable, Mace Windu's chosen style."

I don't see a problem, unless there's another source that contradicts this one.

[Lord Revan]

The Hero's Guide did *not* state that Mace Windu invented Form VII, only that it was his chosen style of combat. That is the only RPG source I know that covers it, and really all it says is "Form VII, difficult to master, very unpredictable, Mace Windu's chosen style."

I don't see a problem, unless there's another source that contradicts this one.

the Clone wars novel Shatterpoint. In it's that not only did Mace Windu invent said form, but there's only two(and after the novel one) Jedi who had mastered Form VII.

[Meest]

KOTOR 2 Darkside spoiler:

Two Sith Lords "dethrone" and literally remove their master's power from her. If this is a true recollection I'm not sure, that character is a known manipulator.

Though this cutscene may happen for Lightside character too. (only played darkside so far)

[Mange]

KOTOR 2 Darkside spoiler:

Two Sith Lords "dethrone" and literally remove their master's power from her. If this is a true recollection I'm not sure, that character is a known manipulator.

Though this cutscene may happen for Lightside character too. (only played darkside so far)

Hmm, I think you should reduce the font size even more, Meest. Simply exchange the 7 for e.g. 3.

[Darwin]

4.) Kolto is not right. In the Star Wars universe Bacta is the only widespread agent used for healing and used in med pacs, Bioware made up Kolto out of thin air.

This guy's rapidly turning into an idiot. Just because they make up another widespread healing agent does not mean it is not part of the continuity. EU authors make up shit all the time. This guy is one of those typical fanatics, who has his own set view of what the SW history is and anything that changes that view is attacked as "false" simply because that's not what he thought.

And besides, to assert that bacta is the ONLY widespread agent used for healing is incredibly dumb on its face.

And something bad could easily happen (and did) to disrupt Kolto production. Far as I can tell, Kolto is superior to Bacta in many ways. Too bad there isn't any left!!

Here's what happened to its source, the planet Manaan: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=st ... 0205manaan