Freespace vs. Homeworld

Antediluvian · Post by **Antediluvian** » 2002-07-23 03:54am

I don't know if this has been done here yet but...

The factions of Freespace vs. the factions from Homeworld.

All races and ships are allowed.

All the factions in each universe are allied with each other.

Who can prevail?

MagicHateBall · Post by **MagicHateBall** » 2002-07-23 03:57am

Does this include Homeworld: Cataclysm era capships and fighters?

Antediluvian · Post by **Antediluvian** » 2002-07-23 04:05am

MagicHateBall wrote:Does this include Homeworld: Cataclysm era capships and fighters?

Yes sir.

Also includes Silent Threat and FS2 capships, fighters, bombers, sentry guns, etc.

MagicHateBall · Post by **MagicHateBall** » 2002-07-23 04:28am

*is going to try very hard not to call upon the Super Acolyte and Plasma Guns in his debating*

I'm going to have to give this one to the Homeworld Universe, and yes, I've played both FS games.

The HW fighters have less total firepower than those in FS2 (I'm assuming that the mass drivers mounted on the interceptor and Acolyte are roughly equivalent to the Avenger cannon from FS1), but they're absolute speedsters, compared to the FS fighters. The HW1 Bomber zips along at a mere 600 m/s, while the fastest fighter in either FS game, the Vasudan Horus clocks in at 175 m/s while on afterburners. They're also more maneuverable, as the Interceptors and Acolytes can make 180s at top speed, while you'd be hard pressed to see even Shivan fighters pull off a similar feat.

Plus there's also the fact that Cata capships are overpowered vs. fighters: the Cata Destroyer and Dreadnought both pack missile banks, a shot or two from which rips into HW fighters.

There goes half of FS's abilty to project force right there.

Capships are about as evenly balanced: the fastest capship in FS can make about 50 m/s, while the Heavy Cruisers can go about five times that. This is made even more impressive by the fact that, going by scaling estimates from the Mothership, the Heavy Cruiser is about 8 km long, while most heavy capships in FS seem to be closer to two KM long. The weaponry, however, seems to be about equal: capships have more turrets, but they're meant for anti-fighter fire, while HW has fewer but larger turrets, meant for anti-capship battles.

If I was the HW commander, I wouldn't even bother deploying fighters. I'd rely on my massive speed advantage for hit-and-run attacks using Heavy Cruisers and Destroyers, using Dreadnaughts and Missile Destroyers as anti-fighter cover when the fleet decelerated to fire.

Easy vic for HW, unless the Shivans decided it was time to put their fleet of Sathanases (Sathanii?) to use.

MagicHateBall · Post by **MagicHateBall** » 2002-07-23 04:33am

I forgot to mention that engagements in HW tend to take place at 4-6 km range, while the average ranges in FS are >1 km.

RayCav of ASVS · Post by **RayCav of ASVS** » 2002-07-23 01:09pm

For that matter, the beam weapons in FS remind me of the Ion Cannon in HW. When I first saw the Lucifer, my first thought was, "Gee, how would they feel if they saw the Death Star?" My second thought was, "Gee, how would they feel if they saw an Ion Array Frigate?"

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-07-23 01:23pm

RayCav of ASVS wrote:For that matter, the beam weapons in FS remind me of the Ion Cannon in HW. When I first saw the Lucifer, my first thought was, "Gee, how would they feel if they saw the Death Star?" My second thought was, "Gee, how would they feel if they saw an Ion Array Frigate?"

My first throughts when I saw the lucifer were.

"That's it? That's the almighty superweapon? It's a bit... small."

RayCav of ASVS · Post by **RayCav of ASVS** » 2002-07-23 01:26pm

Damn, you're fast

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-07-23 01:41pm

Heh.

I can't really comment on the main topic, I didn't get very far on homeworld it was a bit repetitive and I only got to about mission 6 or something. Bit of a waste of cash really.

Antediluvian · Post by **Antediluvian** » 2002-07-23 04:58pm

MagicHateBall wrote:*is going to try very hard not to call upon the Super Acolyte and Plasma Guns in his debating*

I'm going to have to give this one to the Homeworld Universe, and yes, I've played both FS games.

The HW fighters have less total firepower than those in FS2 (I'm assuming that the mass drivers mounted on the interceptor and Acolyte are roughly equivalent to the Avenger cannon from FS1), but they're absolute speedsters, compared to the FS fighters. The HW1 Bomber zips along at a mere 600 m/s, while the fastest fighter in either FS game, the Vasudan Horus clocks in at 175 m/s while on afterburners. They're also more maneuverable, as the Interceptors and Acolytes can make 180s at top speed, while you'd be hard pressed to see even Shivan fighters pull off a similar feat.

Plus there's also the fact that Cata capships are overpowered vs. fighters: the Cata Destroyer and Dreadnought both pack missile banks, a shot or two from which rips into HW fighters.

There goes half of FS's abilty to project force right there.

Capships are about as evenly balanced: the fastest capship in FS can make about 50 m/s, while the Heavy Cruisers can go about five times that. This is made even more impressive by the fact that, going by scaling estimates from the Mothership, the Heavy Cruiser is about 8 km long, while most heavy capships in FS seem to be closer to two KM long. The weaponry, however, seems to be about equal: capships have more turrets, but they're meant for anti-fighter fire, while HW has fewer but larger turrets, meant for anti-capship battles.

If I was the HW commander, I wouldn't even bother deploying fighters. I'd rely on my massive speed advantage for hit-and-run attacks using Heavy Cruisers and Destroyers, using Dreadnaughts and Missile Destroyers as anti-fighter cover when the fleet decelerated to fire.

Easy vic for HW, unless the Shivans decided it was time to put their fleet of Sathanases (Sathanii?) to use.

I don't know if it would be an easy victory, but HW would prevail, especially if ships like the Bentusi Tradeships get involved.

I think the homing missiles that FS can employ would be a problem for HW, even with their superior speed and maneuverability.

Shields would have to even things somewhat for FS, and bombers would be a real threat to capships, especially to the larger ones like the Heavy Cruiser, with little pd ability.

FS caps could also micro-jump and help to negate that range advantage.

However this won't be enough to win the war, even with the Shivan's help.

I predict a bloody war, with HW winning because of special capabilities, the ability to construct ships much faster, bigger and more powerful ships, and superior speed/maneuverability, and generally superior rates of fire for fighters and capships. Plus the ever popular Infection Beam and Siege Cannon. Their FTL is also superior in jumping between systems since they don't need nodes, and they can also micro-jump.

The Lucifer might cast things into doubt for a little while. Maybe.

But not enough to win.

HW wins.

But HW

Antediluvian · Post by **Antediluvian** » 2002-07-23 04:58pm

MagicHateBall wrote:*is going to try very hard not to call upon the Super Acolyte and Plasma Guns in his debating*

I'm going to have to give this one to the Homeworld Universe, and yes, I've played both FS games.

The HW fighters have less total firepower than those in FS2 (I'm assuming that the mass drivers mounted on the interceptor and Acolyte are roughly equivalent to the Avenger cannon from FS1), but they're absolute speedsters, compared to the FS fighters. The HW1 Bomber zips along at a mere 600 m/s, while the fastest fighter in either FS game, the Vasudan Horus clocks in at 175 m/s while on afterburners. They're also more maneuverable, as the Interceptors and Acolytes can make 180s at top speed, while you'd be hard pressed to see even Shivan fighters pull off a similar feat.

Plus there's also the fact that Cata capships are overpowered vs. fighters: the Cata Destroyer and Dreadnought both pack missile banks, a shot or two from which rips into HW fighters.

There goes half of FS's abilty to project force right there.

Capships are about as evenly balanced: the fastest capship in FS can make about 50 m/s, while the Heavy Cruisers can go about five times that. This is made even more impressive by the fact that, going by scaling estimates from the Mothership, the Heavy Cruiser is about 8 km long, while most heavy capships in FS seem to be closer to two KM long. The weaponry, however, seems to be about equal: capships have more turrets, but they're meant for anti-fighter fire, while HW has fewer but larger turrets, meant for anti-capship battles.

If I was the HW commander, I wouldn't even bother deploying fighters. I'd rely on my massive speed advantage for hit-and-run attacks using Heavy Cruisers and Destroyers, using Dreadnaughts and Missile Destroyers as anti-fighter cover when the fleet decelerated to fire.

Easy vic for HW, unless the Shivans decided it was time to put their fleet of Sathanases (Sathanii?) to use.

I don't know if it would be an easy victory, but HW would prevail, especially if ships like the Bentusi Tradeships get involved.

I think the homing missiles that FS can employ would be a problem for HW, even with their superior speed and maneuverability.

Shields would have to even things somewhat for FS, and bombers would be a real threat to capships, especially to the larger ones like the Heavy Cruiser, with little pd ability.

FS caps could also micro-jump and help to negate that range advantage.

However this won't be enough to win the war, even with the Shivan's help.

I predict a bloody war, with HW winning because of special capabilities, the ability to construct ships much faster, bigger and more powerful ships, and superior speed/maneuverability, and generally superior rates of fire for fighters and capships. Plus the ever popular Infection Beam and Siege Cannon. Their FTL is also superior in jumping between systems since they don't need nodes, and they can also micro-jump.

The Lucifer might cast things into doubt for a little while. Maybe.

But not enough to win.

HW wins.

Antediluvian · Post by **Antediluvian** » 2002-07-23 05:00pm

Grr. Stupid double post.

Antediluvian · Post by **Antediluvian** » 2002-07-23 05:02pm

Blockading Jump Nodes would also be a valuable and feasible strategy for the HW forces.

MagicHateBall · Post by **MagicHateBall** » 2002-07-23 10:58pm

I was trying not to get any of the uber-tech involved. That would just make it even more unfair.

FS Missiles: The missles wouldn't be a problem for the fighters to dodge, but the capships would have problems. The HC may be able to outrun the missiles, but if it needed to accelerate from a standstill, an Interceptor or a Hornet would be able to impact before the Cruiser could get up to speed.

Bombers would only be a threat if the capship could be caught away from friendly missile launchers or Multi-Ion Frigates. Plus, the only way I could think of for FS fighters to take down a lone HC or Destroyer would be to pack subsystem disruptors, and use repeated microjumps to catch up the the enemy capship. They'd have to target and disable the engines before friendly bomber assets could be called in to destroy the target using heavy weapons. This is, of course, assuming that the Destroyer or Cruiser in question didn't just jump away first.

Meghel · Post by **Meghel** » 2002-07-24 06:41am

Hmm, this is going to be a walkover for the FS factions.

Especially since Antediluvian said:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by MagicHateBall:
Does this include Homeworld: Cataclysm era capships and fighters?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes sir.

Also includes Silent Threat and FS2 capships, fighters, bombers, sentry guns, etc.

60+ Sathanas, anyone.

And FS-2 Beamweapons are not to be laughed at.

And this does not even include the Terrans and the Vasudans.

This is going to be easy for the Freespace Factions. Noting in the Homeworld Universe can standup against a Sathanas or agains the Colossus.

Cheers,

Meghel

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2002-07-24 06:58am

I belive HW would win with sheer numbers alone. The motherships and carrier will be the most important ships in this war for FW factions since they can build more ships of their own.

Antediluvian · Post by **Antediluvian** » 2002-07-25 12:31am

Meghel wrote:Hmm, this is going to be a walkover for the FS factions.

Especially since Antediluvian said:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by MagicHateBall:
Does this include Homeworld: Cataclysm era capships and fighters?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes sir.

Also includes Silent Threat and FS2 capships, fighters, bombers, sentry guns, etc.
60+ Sathanas, anyone.

And FS-2 Beamweapons are not to be laughed at.
And this does not even include the Terrans and the Vasudans.

This is going to be easy for the Freespace Factions. Noting in the Homeworld Universe can standup against a Sathanas or agains the Colossus.

Cheers,

Meghel

I know a HW ship that can stand up to a Sathanas or Colossus.

The Bentusi Trade Ship.

Or the Naggarok.

Or the Somtaaw Dreadnought.

Or the Hiigaran/Taidan/Beast Heavy Cruiser.

Or the Beast Mothership.

Or the Kuun-Lan (Siege Cannon, anyone?)

MagicHateBall · Post by **MagicHateBall** » 2002-07-25 01:04am

Antediluvian wrote: I know a HW ship that can stand up to a Sathanas or Colossus.

The Bentusi Trade Ship.

Or the Naggarok.

Or the Somtaaw Dreadnought.

Or the Hiigaran/Taidan/Beast Heavy Cruiser.

Or the Beast Mothership.

Or the Kuun-Lan (Siege Cannon, anyone?)

I'd like to point out that I was not including many of those in my arguements for a damn good reason -- it makes it *quite* unfair, as uber-ships seem to abound in the HW universe.
Besides, you forgot the Nomad Moon.

And, when it comes down to it, can a Sathanas- or a Colossus-class dreadnaught stand up to strafing runs done by Super Acolytes at 900 m/s? Remember, Super Acolytes are packing two Ion Cannons, each of which is approximately half as powerful as the one mounted on the Kushan Firelance-class ion frigate.
I doubt their turrets can even *track* something the size of a fighter going 900 m/s.

MagicHateBall · Post by **MagicHateBall** » 2002-07-25 01:12am

Oh, BTW, i'm drawing all my info on speeds, acceleration times, and relative firepowers of HW ships from http://www.well-of-souls.com/homeworld/hws/index.html
Note: damage from ion cannons and damage from mass drivers cannot be compared, as the game seems to treat damage from the different weapons, well, differently.
For example: the Heavy Cruiser's ion turrets are listed as doing 30-33 damage, while the heavy mass drivers are listed as doing 100-150. This suggests that the mass drivers do more damage than the ion cannons, when the inverse is true -- the ion cannons pack more of a punch.

Antediluvian · Post by **Antediluvian** » 2002-07-25 01:47am

MagicHateBall wrote:
Antediluvian wrote: I know a HW ship that can stand up to a Sathanas or Colossus.

The Bentusi Trade Ship.

Or the Naggarok.

Or the Somtaaw Dreadnought.

Or the Hiigaran/Taidan/Beast Heavy Cruiser.

Or the Beast Mothership.

Or the Kuun-Lan (Siege Cannon, anyone?)
I'd like to point out that I was not including many of those in my arguements for a damn good reason -- it makes it *quite* unfair, as uber-ships seem to abound in the HW universe.
Besides, you forgot the Nomad Moon.
And, when it comes down to it, can a Sathanas- or a Colossus-class dreadnaught stand up to strafing runs done by Super Acolytes at 900 m/s? Remember, Super Acolytes are packing two Ion Cannons, each of which is approximately half as powerful as the one mounted on the Kushan Firelance-class ion frigate.
I doubt their turrets can even *track* something the size of a fighter going 900 m/s.

I don't think I would consider the Nomad Moon a ship, but there's something else that can take a Colossus or Sathanas.

And Super Acolytes are just nasty.

Speaking of using websites, Tech Freespace is a good site for FS tech data.

On the subject of ships, a Kadeshi Mothership would give a Sathanas or Colossus plenty of trouble also. (Ramming and Ions anyone?)

And if they have trouble targeting a Super Acolyte, I would hate to see them try to target Swarmers and Advanced Swarmers!

As for holding back on the Uber stuff, I figured if that Meghel could bring out the big guns for FS, the gloves were off.

Antediluvian · Post by **Antediluvian** » 2002-07-25 01:51am

Homeworld Shipyards is an excellent site, but I don't think he (the web author) will finish it anytime soon.

MagicHateBall · Post by **MagicHateBall** » 2002-07-25 02:13am

Nomad Moon: Well, it's about as much of a ship as the Death Star is.

Oh, and Tech Freespace pegs the length of the Colossus at 6.5 km. Guess which HW ships are bigger.

Yeah, he still hasn't gotten up all the info on The Beast... he did make vague rumblings about HW2, though...

Antediluvian · Post by **Antediluvian** » 2002-07-25 02:16am

MagicHateBall wrote:Nomad Moon: Well, it's about as much of a ship as the Death Star is.

Oh, and Tech Freespace pegs the length of the Colossus at 6.5 km. Guess which HW ships are bigger.

Yeah, he still hasn't gotten up all the info on The Beast... he did make vague rumblings about HW2, though...

I bet HW2 will be kickass.

Can't wait.

MagicHateBall · Post by **MagicHateBall** » 2002-07-25 02:18am

Ditto. Pity no info will be released until next year...

MagicHateBall · Post by **MagicHateBall** » 2002-07-25 03:15am

Oh, another ship that would be capable of taking down a Colossus:
The Junkyard Dog.