I Jedi

[consequences]

now why is the Lusankya battle wankery?
One SSD
versus
2 Isds
1 and a half squadrons
A load of freighters

Let me put it this way: An SSD has 100+ times the volume of an ISD, with an equivalent amount of guns and shielding.

NO NOT TRUE not 100 times as many. the SSD has 250 heavy turbolasers, 250 turbolasers, 250 heavy ion cannons and 250 assault concusion missile launchers. A Imp Star Deuce 50 heavy turbolasers, 50 turbolasers and 50 heavy ion cannons. meaning it has 3 and a third times more firepower than the two Imp Star Deuces at the battle.

You know, I'm going to ignore everything else, and just point out that those weapons numbers of yours are based on the erroneous EU Super class star destroyer, which is less than half the length of the Executor as scaled from the movies. The same movie shows at least three hundred eighty plus HTL turrets where the ISD has eight.

That, and you couldn't even get the EU ISD weapons numbers right, that's supposed to be twenty Ion cannons on an Impstar deuce

[Cabwi Desco]

well thats not what all my material says concerning the Imp star deuce. and anyway, all the numbers in the books pertaining to that series and battle say 1000 for the SSD. so im going with what the book said for their battle, because like it or not whats there pertains more than what an after the fact book says. and whats an ITW? what i have are ICSs, EGs, and SOTG

[consequences]

well thats not what all my material says concerning the Imp star deuce. and anyway, all the numbers in the books pertaining to that series and battle say 1000 for the SSD. so im going with what the book said for their battle, because like it or not whats there pertains more than what an after the fact book says. and whats an ITW? what i have are ICSs, EGs, and SOTG

Inside the Worlds. The fact remains, that the material you are using is wrong, as it is overriden by the movies themselves.

[Cabwi Desco]

Regardless if it is erroneous, for the book thats what they put it at, its not reverse compatible, you can't throw out what people wrote for what is supposedly 'fact', just like you cant (unfortunately) throw out everything KJA did...

and hell even for ISD numbers they change from source to source, and evertime its new and 'updated' the numbers change. in the Original EGTV&V its actually 60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons, then in SOTG its the numbers i mentioned before, they all conflict. we can not accurately state how many weapons are on an SSD or an ISD

but one last thing, its still not 100+ times as many or as much in terms of firepower, and dont say its just an expression.

[Cabwi Desco]

oh come on what can you ACTUALLY see in the movies, a bunch of turbolaser bolts flying randomly, no real definition of guns to speak of, and if you want to zoom in really close all you still see is a blur.

I tell you what, you give me an up-close and detailed blueprint of an SSD that shows over 1000 guns and ill believe you.

in fact i think the only guns in the SW trillogy ive ever seen totally visible on any imperial warship are those 8 big assed turrets on the sides of an ISD

[consequences]

Regardless if it is erroneous, for the book thats what they put it at, its not reverse compatible, you can't throw out what people wrote for what is supposedly 'fact', just like you cant (unfortunately) throw out everything KJA did...

and hell even for ISD numbers they change from source to source, and evertime its new and 'updated' the numbers change. in the Original EGTV&V its actually 60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons, then in SOTG its the numbers i mentioned before, they all conflict. we can not accurately state how many weapons are on an SSD or an ISD

but one last thing, its still not 100+ times as many or as much in terms of firepower, and dont say its just an expression.

Actually, given the size of the Executor model, and the various hull protrusions that scale to the same size as a HTL battery, the executor has potentially 118 times the heavy weaponry of an ISD.


The Executor model is literally too small for anything that size to be easily distiunguished. Read here if you want to learn something instead of mouthing off on things you have no real knowledge of.

[Cabwi Desco]

oh come on dont give me the no real knowledge crap...

yeah ive read saxtons stuff and i think the mans a bloody genius but fact remains, even his published material says that there are only 8 heavy turbolasers on an ISD when practically EVERY OTHER SOURCE says it has more.

now you cant go with selective reasoning, either its all there or its not, unless of course youre being hypocritical...

hell with that in mind how can we even aknowledge the pure existence of starship Ion cannons outside what we see on y-wings and b-wings?

you said film so im talkin film. ion cannons shoot blue bolts, i, not once have seen blue bolts flying between capital ships in the battle of endor.

argue all you want but nearly all of the 'facts' between the books and movies and even videogames seem to contradict at times.

[consequences]

oh come on dont give me the no real knowledge crap...

yeah ive read saxtons stuff and i think the mans a bloody genius but fact remains, even his published material says that there are only 8 heavy turbolasers on an ISD when practically EVERY OTHER SOURCE says it has more.

now you cant go with selective reasoning, either its all there or its not, unless of course youre being hypocritical...

hell with that in mind how can we even aknowledge the pure existence of starship Ion cannons outside what we see on y-wings and b-wings?

you said film so im talkin film. ion cannons shoot blue bolts, i, not once have seen blue bolts flying between capital ships in the battle of endor.

argue all you want but nearly all of the 'facts' between the books and movies and even videogames seem to contradict at times.

Yes, but the movies win whenever this happens. Which means that we can throw all of WEG's star destroyer numbers into the garbage, along with everything derived from them.

For Ion Cannons shooting blue, did the blatantly red bolts fired by the Rebels Ion Cannon on Hoth in any way resemble the color blue?

As a side note, each of the eight HTL batteries has eight individual barrels, bringing the ISD's heavy weapon count up to 64 by strict movie evidence, depending upon how you count the weapons..

[Praxis]

NO NOT TRUE not 100 times as many. the SSD has 250 heavy turbolasers, 250 turbolasers, 250 heavy ion cannons and 250 assault concusion missile launchers. A Imp Star Deuce 50 heavy turbolasers, 50 turbolasers and 50 heavy ion cannons. meaning it has 3 and a third times more firepower than the two Imp Star Deuces at the battle.

Have you been reading the Essential Guide or some other non-canon TM?

[Cabwi Desco]

I already said that. and one last thing. I thought that ALL books are cannon or are we taking that back as well.

okay, fine, according to CONJECTURE, Ion cannons are blue. the one on HOTH was a high powered planetary model.

explain to me one thing with 100 percent accuracy with movie or cannon evidence and i will relinquish my claims, why are rebel (or NR) turbolasers (and lasers) red and imperial green? and dont say "thats how the SFX department made 'em for differentiation" that wont fly becuase its different in the books too.

[consequences]

I already said that. and one last thing. I thought that ALL books are cannon or are we taking that back as well.

okay, fine, according to CONJECTURE, Ion cannons are blue. the one on HOTH was a high powered planetary model.

explain to me one thing with 100 percent accuracy with movie or cannon evidence and i will relinquish my claims, why are rebel (or NR) turbolasers (and lasers) red and imperial green? and dont say "thats how the SFX department made 'em for differentiation" that wont fly becuase its different in the books too.

All books are canon, unless contradicted by higher canon(i.e., movies and their novelisations). Since the WEG numbers for weapons mounted on a SD are contradicted by the movies, they can be tossed.

Target identification in close quarters. In a point-blank starship melee, with fighters darting every which way, you want to know that the fighter you are trying to peg that just took a shot at you is really an enemy, and not a friendly who missed the shot he was lining up on another fighter that evaded. Because there is no time to do a full verificztion on a fighter's identity in that environment, and that lets the point defense gunners fire by reflex, and at eat have half a chance of accomplishing something without worrying unduly about potting their own guys. This is also supported by the heavy levels of jamming that are routinely encountered in SW, where anything other than visual detection methods could be rendereduseless. This is speculation, but speculation that is consistent with the environment shown.

[Praxis]

I already said that. and one last thing. I thought that ALL books are cannon or are we taking that back as well.

okay, fine, according to CONJECTURE, Ion cannons are blue. the one on HOTH was a high powered planetary model.

explain to me one thing with 100 percent accuracy with movie or cannon evidence and i will relinquish my claims, why are rebel (or NR) turbolasers (and lasers) red and imperial green? and dont say "thats how the SFX department made 'em for differentiation" that wont fly becuase its different in the books too.

All books are canon, unless contradicted by higher canon(i.e., movies and their novelisations). Since the WEG numbers for weapons mounted on a SD are contradicted by the movies, they can be tossed.

Target identification in close quarters. In a point-blank starship melee, with fighters darting every which way, you want to know that the fighter you are trying to peg that just took a shot at you is really an enemy, and not a friendly who missed the shot he was lining up on another fighter that evaded. Because there is no time to do a full verificztion on a fighter's identity in that environment, and that lets the point defense gunners fire by reflex, and at eat have half a chance of accomplishing something without worrying unduly about potting their own guys. This is also supported by the heavy levels of jamming that are routinely encountered in SW, where anything other than visual detection methods could be rendereduseless. This is speculation, but speculation that is consistent with the environment shown.

Incorrect, the Essential Guide is non-canon.

Only the ICS is considered canon.

In SW, tech manuals are not canon.

The Novels are EU (canon unless contradicted), the TM's are not.

[consequences]

I already said that. and one last thing. I thought that ALL books are cannon or are we taking that back as well.

okay, fine, according to CONJECTURE, Ion cannons are blue. the one on HOTH was a high powered planetary model.

explain to me one thing with 100 percent accuracy with movie or cannon evidence and i will relinquish my claims, why are rebel (or NR) turbolasers (and lasers) red and imperial green? and dont say "thats how the SFX department made 'em for differentiation" that wont fly becuase its different in the books too.

All books are canon, unless contradicted by higher canon(i.e., movies and their novelisations). Since the WEG numbers for weapons mounted on a SD are contradicted by the movies, they can be tossed.

Target identification in close quarters. In a point-blank starship melee, with fighters darting every which way, you want to know that the fighter you are trying to peg that just took a shot at you is really an enemy, and not a friendly who missed the shot he was lining up on another fighter that evaded. Because there is no time to do a full verificztion on a fighter's identity in that environment, and that lets the point defense gunners fire by reflex, and at eat have half a chance of accomplishing something without worrying unduly about potting their own guys. This is also supported by the heavy levels of jamming that are routinely encountered in SW, where anything other than visual detection methods could be rendereduseless. This is speculation, but speculation that is consistent with the environment shown.

Incorrect, the Essential Guide is non-canon.

Only the ICS is considered canon.

In SW, tech manuals are not canon.

The Novels are EU (canon unless contradicted), the TM's are not.

I thought that the TMs were C-level canon except where contradicted? If not, then oh well, I stand corrected.

[Praxis]

I already said that. and one last thing. I thought that ALL books are cannon or are we taking that back as well.

All novels, not books in general. Tech Manuals are not considered part of the EU, nor canon, with the exception of ICS (the only one that actually worked with Lucas on writing it).

okay, fine, according to CONJECTURE, Ion cannons are blue. the one on HOTH was a high powered planetary model.

Ion Cannons are blue according to EU.

[Praxis]

All books are canon, unless contradicted by higher canon(i.e., movies and their novelisations). Since the WEG numbers for weapons mounted on a SD are contradicted by the movies, they can be tossed.

Target identification in close quarters. In a point-blank starship melee, with fighters darting every which way, you want to know that the fighter you are trying to peg that just took a shot at you is really an enemy, and not a friendly who missed the shot he was lining up on another fighter that evaded. Because there is no time to do a full verificztion on a fighter's identity in that environment, and that lets the point defense gunners fire by reflex, and at eat have half a chance of accomplishing something without worrying unduly about potting their own guys. This is also supported by the heavy levels of jamming that are routinely encountered in SW, where anything other than visual detection methods could be rendereduseless. This is speculation, but speculation that is consistent with the environment shown.

Incorrect, the Essential Guide is non-canon.

Only the ICS is considered canon.

In SW, tech manuals are not canon.

The Novels are EU (canon unless contradicted), the TM's are not.

I thought that the TMs were C-level canon except where contradicted? If not, then oh well, I stand corrected.

I'm fairly certain that TM's outside the ICS are not canon, but it's my word vs yours until someone with more experience shows up here.

I'll do a quick search of the main site though.

[Praxis]

By SD.net:

According to Lucasfilm, this is the Star Wars canon hierarchy:

1.

The movies
2.

The movie novelizations, screenplays, radio dramas, and DK companion materials (Visual Dictionary, Incredible Cross-Sections, Inside the Worlds)
3.

The rest of the "Expanded Universe". This is to be treated in much the same way as we treat real-life history books, so there is more uncertainty about events which take place long ago, ie- farther away from the movies on the timeline, and sources can be legitimately evaluated on the basis of their apparent quality of research or editorial bias. For example, the obvious anti-Empire bias among historians in the immediate post-Endor era can be credited for such outlandishly cretinous statements as the KJA claim that the construction of the Executor (an insignificant speck compared to either Death Star) "nearly bankrupted the Empire".

Don't see TM's in there, and I don't believe they count as part of the EU (or we'd have 8 KM SSD's as canon...*shiver*).

[Alyeska]

TMs fall under the expanded universe.

[Praxis]

TMs fall under the expanded universe.

Even the Essential Guide and all its horrible minimalism?

[Lone_Prodigy]

Don't see TM's in there, and I don't believe they count as part of the EU (or we'd have 8 KM SSD's as canon...*shiver*).

Just remember: the movies override them. Thank god for that....

[The Original Nex]

TMs fall under the expanded universe.

Even the Essential Guide and all its horrible minimalism?

Yep, fortunately higher sources override all the bad shit.

[Connor MacLeod]

I already said that. and one last thing. I thought that ALL books are cannon or are we taking that back as well.

All novels, not books in general. Tech Manuals are not considered part of the EU, nor canon, with the exception of ICS (the only one that actually worked with Lucas on writing it).

AFAIK the Essential guides are official but not canon (and thus in the "EU" category). This hasn't changed even with the added clarifications (that whole GCSN nonsense.)

[Connor MacLeod]

By SD.net:

According to Lucasfilm, this is the Star Wars canon hierarchy:

1.

The movies
2.

The movie novelizations, screenplays, radio dramas, and DK companion materials (Visual Dictionary, Incredible Cross-Sections, Inside the Worlds)
3.

The rest of the "Expanded Universe". This is to be treated in much the same way as we treat real-life history books, so there is more uncertainty about events which take place long ago, ie- farther away from the movies on the timeline, and sources can be legitimately evaluated on the basis of their apparent quality of research or editorial bias. For example, the obvious anti-Empire bias among historians in the immediate post-Endor era can be credited for such outlandishly cretinous statements as the KJA claim that the construction of the Executor (an insignificant speck compared to either Death Star) "nearly bankrupted the Empire".

Don't see TM's in there, and I don't believe they count as part of the EU (or we'd have 8 KM SSD's as canon...*shiver*).

And yet Mike cites the Essential guides as part of his proof on the site (Like on the TL firepower page.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Didn't you see in RotJ how the Imperial Fleet could've mopped the floor with the Rebels, but were ordered to only attempt to contain them?

By the time the Executor was under fire, those orders were irrelevent. Furthermore, if the SSD had uber shields, shouldn't it have been able to withstand the attack for a long time? Unless you also believe the Emperor ordered all Imperial ships to turn off their shields...

The first point is somewhat debatable, since there really IS no chance the Rebels could have stood up to the Imperial fleet (comprising ships that were not only far better warships with heavier weapons and defenses than their rebel counterparts, but also outnumbered their opponents. Lets also not forget that a significant portion of the Rebel fleet was comprised of ships smaller than an ISD - Corellian corvettes, escort frigates, and whatnot.)

However, that does not mean they were holding back completely, since the Imperial Communications ship destroyed a Rebel cruiser that was bombarding it (and of course we saw them returning fire in the movies.) In fact the novel makes it apparent they WERE clearly fighting back to some degree, but its unlikely they were fighting at FULL capacity.

The second point is the real stickler though. The largest ships in the Rebel fleet were only several miles long (the Home One types, probably the Corellian battleships, etc.) and these didnt make up a significant fraction of the alliance fleet (lighter and medium vessels did.) They had nothing that was even CLOSE to the firepower of the Executor in their fleet. So explaining the loss while justifying the supposedly immense durability of the ship is difficult at best. ("Bacta War's Lusankya incident is much easier to explain IMHO, since the incident involved dozens of capital-scale warheads of an unknown yield.)

[The Original Nex]

The second point is the real stickler though. The largest ships in the Rebel fleet were only several miles long (the Home One types, probably the Corellian battleships, etc.) and these didnt make up a significant fraction of the alliance fleet (lighter and medium vessels did.) They had nothing that was even CLOSE to the firepower of the Executor in their fleet. So explaining the loss while justifying the supposedly immense durability of the ship is difficult at best. ("Bacta War's Lusankya incident is much easier to explain IMHO, since the incident involved dozens of capital-scale warheads of an unknown yield.)

If every ship in range of the Executor opened up with all weapons at around the same time, concentrating on the power generators, the shields would fail in time, normally the shields would recharge quickly, but the Rebel Fighters took out a Scanner and Comm dome which also housed the Bridge Deflector Shield Projectors, so even after the shield power was restored, it could not be brought to use as the projectors were destroyed.

The shields only needed to fail for a short time in order for the fighters to press the advantage.