SW vs ST combat ranges.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-02-23 12:52pm

I have been thinking and wouldn't short combat combat ranges (A.K.A. SW point blank)be worse for trek then typical SW combat Ranges.

Since typical SW ship to ship combat is (IIRC) in HTL/MTL range, while trek combat is so close it's in LTL/PDG range so an ISD hammer an federation ship with low yield shots (so power that feds would have any hope surviving, but not power enough to kill the target with one hit). I think this could cause other UFP to rout.

What do you think?

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-02-23 01:17pm

Uuh... I have no idea about combat ranges in SW. Trek ranges are something like 40.000km or there abouts. So what's point blank in SW?

-Gunhead

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2005-02-23 01:29pm

Point blank in SW is <1km. Onscreen evidence from TNG and DS9 suggests that typical ST starship combat range is <100km.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2005-02-23 01:32pm

I just realized my point blank assertion is mostly for fighters and that SW capital ship point blank is <20 or so km.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-02-23 01:36pm

100km?!?!?!

Well that 40kkm was from something some klingon said in a TNG episode.
Oh well. Don't really see point of this. Feddies would get annihilated even by the puniest TL SW has. Since power usually drops with range, they'd be uber fucked up close.

-Gunhead

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-02-23 04:51pm

Err-one of the points of DEW is that power does not significantly drop with range, thanks to very low beam dispersion. We're not exactly talking about flashlights here.

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2005-02-23 08:20pm

Moreover, on-screen evidence has shown acceleration of TL bolts with distance.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-02-23 08:52pm

When it comes to the Federation, they can fire BVR accurately enough to miss a Runabout by a handful of meters. This is at ranges of beyond 200km.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-02-24 02:28pm

Batman wrote:Err-one of the points of DEW is that power does not significantly drop with range, thanks to very low beam dispersion. We're not exactly talking about flashlights here.

That was the whole point, even if power did drop with range, TLs still make scrap out of fed ships. Being at point blank just assures the destruction.
They don't even get the chance to run.
I still don't get what Revan is after here.

-Gunhead

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-02-24 02:44pm

Gunhead wrote:
Batman wrote:Err-one of the points of DEW is that power does not significantly drop with range, thanks to very low beam dispersion. We're not exactly talking about flashlights here.
That was the whole point, even if power did drop with range, TLs still make scrap out of fed ships. Being at point blank just assures the destruction.
They don't even get the chance to run.
I still don't get what Revan is after here.

-Gunhead

what I mean that LTL/PDG range an ISD can use weapons that don't kill a starfleet ship with one shot, since it's probable that each SW weapon have min firepower under which they can't go (you can't fire blaster power shot from HTL (but fire a lot powerfull shot)). Since singe hit kill can rationalized, being torn apart can not be.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-02-24 04:46pm

I think I'm getting it now. Lord Revan, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but what I think you're getting at that at ranges where MTL/HTL are used one shot kills are inevitable due to the absurd firepower on the Wars side, because MTL/HTL can't be dialed down arbitrarily far. Whereas point-blank (whatever that means) gives Wars the ability to use low firepower weapons such as LTL, which enables them to take down Trek ships without vaporizing them. IOW they use the least available firepower they can bring to bear, and the still bitchslap Starfleet, which isn't exactly going to boost UFP morale once it's made known...
That about sum it up, Lord Revan?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-02-24 04:58pm

Batman wrote:I think I'm getting it now. Lord Revan, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but what I think you're getting at that at ranges where MTL/HTL are used one shot kills are inevitable due to the absurd firepower on the Wars side, because MTL/HTL can't be dialed down arbitrarily far. Whereas point-blank (whatever that means) gives Wars the ability to use low firepower weapons such as LTL, which enables them to take down Trek ships without vaporizing them. IOW they use the least available firepower they can bring to bear, and the still bitchslap Starfleet, which isn't exactly going to boost UFP morale once it's made known...
That about sum it up, Lord Revan?

pretty much so, after all one hit kills could rationalized or writen off as hit AM-pods, Warpcore or other critical systems a ship being torn apart with several hits with out being able to prevent it. If add this to some displays of greater firepower and the fact that imperial ships seem almost impossible to destroy (hight shield power combined with strong armor and no loop hole to use).

Striderteen · Post by **Striderteen** » 2005-02-26 02:32am

Right, psychological terror tactics.

The best way to make the Federation crap its pants in terror is to have a single ISD charge directly at a Federation battlefleet, contemptuously shrugging off everything they throw at it and not even bothering to fire back...until it reaches point-blank range, at which point it tears them apart with a hurricane of fire from its light guns.

Star-Blighter · Post by **Star-Blighter** » 2005-03-19 11:39pm

Alyeska wrote:When it comes to the Federation, they can fire BVR accurately enough to miss a Runabout by a handful of meters. This is at ranges of beyond 200km.

Where does this come from? And the ability to "almost hit" a target is not to impressive.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-03-20 07:41pm

Star-Blighter wrote:
Alyeska wrote:When it comes to the Federation, they can fire BVR accurately enough to miss a Runabout by a handful of meters. This is at ranges of beyond 200km.
Where does this come from? And the ability to "almost hit" a target is not to impressive.

This comes straight from Wayne's Trek Miss video. And when you consider the context of the example, almost hit is very impressive. If you can fire accurately enough at a range of 200km that you miss a Runabout by 2 meters, this means you will be hitting something the size of a Galor class cruiser 100% of the time at this range.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-03-20 08:36pm

Alyeska wrote:And when you consider the context of the example, almost hit is very impressive. If you can fire accurately enough at a range of 200km that you miss a Runabout by 2 meters, this means you will be hitting something the size of a Galor class cruiser 100% of the time at this range.

So why don't they?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-03-20 10:24pm

Darth Servo wrote:
Alyeska wrote:And when you consider the context of the example, almost hit is very impressive. If you can fire accurately enough at a range of 200km that you miss a Runabout by 2 meters, this means you will be hitting something the size of a Galor class cruiser 100% of the time at this range.
So why don't they?

If they didn't, my example would not exist. BVR combat examples do exist. I've mentioned them repeatedly and typicaly most people ignored them. Many people even argued flat out that 10km was max range for Trek ships. Then I found an example of BVR combat on Wayne's very own Trek Miss video, and the whole argument against BVR combat kinda dried up.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2005-03-21 12:59am

Alyeska wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:
Alyeska wrote:And when you consider the context of the example, almost hit is very impressive. If you can fire accurately enough at a range of 200km that you miss a Runabout by 2 meters, this means you will be hitting something the size of a Galor class cruiser 100% of the time at this range.
So why don't they?
If they didn't, my example would not exist. BVR combat examples do exist. I've mentioned them repeatedly and typicaly most people ignored them. Many people even argued flat out that 10km was max range for Trek ships. Then I found an example of BVR combat on Wayne's very own Trek Miss video, and the whole argument against BVR combat kinda dried up.

I think he means, why don't they hit 100% of the time at this range like you say, not why don't they hit.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-03-21 10:16am

When it comes to Federation ships and beam phasers, they hit very near 100% of the time. I already detailed the target envolope at 200+ km and that ensures ~100% hit ratios against ships the size of a Galor or larger.

Scrubula · Post by **Scrubula** » 2005-03-27 09:54am

Where does this come from? And the ability to "almost hit" a target is not to impressive.

Try telling that to a Warsie who is arguing that 'The stormtroopers were trying to miss!!!!' in the DS escape scene. Suddenly all those misses the stormtroopers were racking up are 'superior skill and training' to 'make it look good but still not hit'. I've heard this from dozens of warsies on this and other sites.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2005-03-27 10:14am

Scrubula wrote:
Where does this come from? And the ability to "almost hit" a target is not to impressive.
Try telling that to a Warsie who is arguing that 'The stormtroopers were trying to miss!!!!' in the DS escape scene. Suddenly all those misses the stormtroopers were racking up are 'superior skill and training' to 'make it look good but still not hit'. I've heard this from dozens of warsies on this and other sites.

Hey, assgobbler, how the hell does someone escape to lead you to their base if you've blown their head off?

I'm predicting a very short stay for you here if you try the same shit you get away with elsewhere, boyo.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-03-27 11:27am

Gunhead wrote:100km?!?!?!

Well that 40kkm was from something some klingon said in a TNG episode.
Oh well. Don't really see point of this. Feddies would get annihilated even by the puniest TL SW has. Since power usually drops with range, they'd be uber fucked up close.

-Gunhead

Erm lets not exaggerate. An Acclamator laser cannon has 6MT per shot firepower. A Star Trek ship should be able to withstand that surely. It's the larger, visible TLs that get into the "dead in a shot" range.

Hawkwings · Post by **Hawkwings** » 2005-03-27 01:19pm

well, laser cannons are anti-fighter weaponry. An ISD may not have those, as it's specialized for taking out other capships.

However, if you *really* want to scare the federation, have a Lancer frigate(specialized anti-fighter) run through the battlefleet and blow stuff up with an ISD just sitting there, watching.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-03-27 01:30pm

Hawkwings wrote:However, if you *really* want to scare the federation, have a Lancer frigate(specialized anti-fighter) run through the battlefleet and blow stuff up with an ISD just sitting there, watching.

well the fed don't know that a Lancer is Anti-fighter, if really want gloat just have shielded fighters strafe fed ships untill their shield give in (shielded, since they can't take fed shield down in single run). infact an Interdictor cuiser would be best as it powerfull to be not danger and might prevent use of warp drive.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2005-03-27 01:36pm

Seismic mines, deployed by the smallest shielded platform capable of carrying them. Truly and utterly whore the Feddies. Or you could just drop a few thousand of them on a course that takes them into the Feds silly little Wall of Battle.