How would one eliminate fundamentalism?

[HemlockGrey]

Ok. Don't accept my point of view. If you want to be horribly, horribly wrong, it's your choice.

[Darth Wong]

It doesn't explicitly say 'the earth is flat square/rectangle/quadrilteral.' 4 corners can easily be interpreted as a poetical thing. You're grasping at straws.

Taking passages at face value is "grasping at straws"?

It is when you do it. When he does it, it's "objective evidence".

[Ghost Rider]

Please Durandal...who knows where the soul comes from let alone life...since he claimed my parents were only a part of the equation (this I still want to see his evidence)

As for the second...they were heathens...thus deserving of death.

Overall...it funny to see how far he'll keep spouting the bible...and claiming I've made no ad hominems...etc.

[Ghost Rider]

Thanks, but I'd rather take it from Jesus that all scripture is god breathed. I think he's more of an authority on it

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Sorry no words for that aside from damn...I have some land that been blessed by God in the Gobi desert...you up for it?

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

We have a new Fundamentalist Moron? Excellent.

What ever happened ot the other three? I know Priesto's still around saying random dumb things.

[Wicked Pilot]

Thanks, but I'd rather take it from Jesus that all scripture is god breathed. I think he's more of an authority on it

HOLY FUCK! Someone give this guy the Pulitzer for stupidity!

[Darth Wong]

-eats popcorn-
Jon, for future reference: Biblical literalism = bad. Take it from a fellow Christian.

Thanks, but I'd rather take it from Jesus that all scripture is god breathed. I think he's more of an authority on it

Hee hee hee ... and he calls it a "strawman" to accuse him of circular logic!

I love this. He knows that the Bible is literally true because it's "god-breathed". He knows it's "god-breathed" because Jesus said so. He knows that Jesus is infallible and said those words because the Bible says so and it's ... literally true.

And yes, when he reads this, he will undoubtedly deny yet again that he has been using circular logic, and complain about my "strawman attacks". Perhaps he feels that a more accurate description is elliptical logic ...

[Durandal]

Please Durandal...who knows where the soul comes from let alone life...since he claimed my parents were only a part of the equation

There is no evidence for the existence of a soul, so asking where it comes from is essentially useless. Life comes from a man and a woman having sex and procreating. Haven't you reached the 7th grade yet?

Perhaps he feels that a more accurate description is elliptical logic ...

Elliptical logic, that's goin' in the act.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Actually, the Biblical God's existence is is conflict with the facts, insofar as the Bible's factual accuracy is simply laughable. The Vague God's existence is not necessarily in conflict with the facts. But then again, he might be Buddha, or Odin.

Yay! I'm sorry, as SD.net's only (and thus official) Asatruar, even an off-hand not-entirely-serious mention of Odin by the site admin makes me happy for some dumb reason.

[Darth Wong]

Yay! I'm sorry, as SD.net's only (and thus official) Asatruar, even an off-hand not-entirely-serious mention of Odin by the site admin makes me happy for some dumb reason.

Hey, I read my Thor comics when I was a kid. I've always wondered how accurate they were to the real Norse myths, with his mighty war hammer Mjolnir, his half-brother Loki and Hel and her great ship made of the fingernails of the dead. Odin was cool.

[Justforfun000]

Jonathan, you are being impossible. You have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are not thinking rationally. You keep contradicting yourself over and over. On one side you say that your personal beliefs should be just as valuable as anyone else's and that subjective reality is equal to objective reality because we can't prove it's NOT true. Then you turn around and do a 360 with your actions and start trying to prove that the Bible is correct by saying that "you know" that it is, and that it is supposedly borne out by the best objective evidence possible.

BULLSHIT.

It is NOT borne out by evidence. A great DEAL of evidence shows there to be many contradictions, and HUNDREDS of fallacies. Every time someone points out something we KNOW to be wrong by our scientific evidence today, you automatically call it "allegorical" or "symbolic". This is YOUR justifiation, and you have no right to state this as fact. but you do anyway. I'm truly amazed how blind you are. The sad thing is that you are so entrenched in thinking the Bible MUST be right, that you will make up any excuse whatsoever to explain away the obvious mistakes and contradiction therein. Of COURSE some things are going to be true, because it was written by living people and their decriptions of lands and rulers and lifestyles and so forth are also going to be described in their writing. But NONE of the "Evidence" that you for some strange reason believe exists has anything to do with the supernatural claims attributed to God, Jesus, or any of the prophets. STORIES ARE NOT OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE. They are *drumroll*, ANECTDOTAL.

There IS a reason why in medicine, they consider anectdotal evidence to be worthless. BECAUSE IT IS NOT PROOF. It may LOOK like proof, it may walk like proof, it may APPEAR to be borne out by observation, but it is NOT proof. Many things people assumed were true anectdotally, even in the case of THOUSANDS of examples, have later been shown to be WRONG.

Honestly, there are just so many flaws in your thinking that I really don't even know where to start if I wish to specifically pick out your quotes.

To start with though, you did not even come close to making sense when you were trying to weasel out of the reason why God would allow babies to be borne and then slaughtered. You said that we are born with FREE WILL to choose to follow God and that he does not wish any soul should perish. So tell me genius, what free will did a baby have to sin? Or to do ANYTHING for that matter. A baby is not ABLE to sin because it isn't even capable of proper thought, let alone taking care of themselves and actually committing sinful acts. That you cannot see that this is so self-evident just proved to me more than anything else you have said that you are unwilling to ever allow your mind to entertain the idea that the Bible, OR your belief on what God is and how he works, is wrong. With that attitude, you have automatically conceded that you are not using logic or objective evidence to form your beliefs, because you HAVE to be open-minded as to what the evidence you see actually SHOWS you is real. As in REALITY. What we can see and measure. The biggest cop out I've seen is that no matter what God is described as being or doing in the Bible, you blindly assume regardless of how repugnant the act, that God MUST be all perfect and good so anything he does is perfectly just. Never mind that any rational, compassionate and SANE person would consider immoral and cruel.

You are the pot calling the kettle black. What you are accusing people of doing is EXACTLY what you ARE doing. We have laid out tons of valid rebuttals to your points, and don't remember you answering a SINGLE ONE of them logically. You THINK you're using logic, but it is FALSE logic. You simply do not see that you are not truly versed in what is real logic. Please, do us all a favour and take some courses in science and logic so that you at least may learn the correct way to reason. You are trying to use some of the tools, but because you obviously don't comprehend it's totality, you are MIS-using rationality.

I'm not hear to flame you. Lots of people here love to do that, but I really feel for people like you that are willfully blinding themselves. Obviously the average Christian is a decent person, and they are simply acting out what they believe is good. But you have to realize that when Christians act out their beliefs towards other people in ANY way, whether it's telling homosexuals that they are sinning if they ever have sex with another of the same gender, or telling impressionable young children that masturbation is a sin and they will suffer for it, and on and on and on, you are RESPONSIBLE for your behaviour and the effect it is having on other people.

So THIS is why people get so angry with the ones who choose to believe something without even opening their mind to the POSSIBILITY that their belief is irrational, based on innaccurate information, or just simply WRONG.

Like it or not, certain things are unequivocably wrong in the Bible. We know that. You try to explain it away unsuccessfully. All you are doing is being willfully rejectful of truth and reality as we can measure it. You are ignoring any piece of TRUE evidence on concepts and instead placing your belief as HAVING to be right as the first and last conclusion. Period. Until you can honestly have a look at the truth that the Bible is inerrant, there is little point having a debate with you. A debate has to be based on logic and truth, and you cannot use the concept of your belief as evidence for your side. You are no different than Shirley MacLaine whose main cop out was the simple phrase, "well that's my reality". Uh uh. She BELIEVED that it was reality. That does not make reality. She could believe with all her heart and mind that she could float off a cliff and lower herself down 1000 feet if she jumped off it, but would that be the TRUE reality? I think a little thing called "gravity" would show her just how truly her beliefs would be borne out in the real world.

This is not reason. This is delusion.

And just for the record, I myself happen to believe in God. But unlike you, I admit that the belief is simply that. A belief. I think personal experiences are the only thing that can have any bearing on this as it relates to YOU but I'm sorry, no matter what happens to make you believe in anything spiritual, it does not automatically make the Bible, or the Koran any more correct.

My beliefs are not dependant on any written word. I believe in INSPIRED writing, but not infallible. There is a BIG difference. The simple reason I believe that there is a God is that I personally feel that there has to be a reason to life. The fact that order exists, even the CONCEPT of order and that we have laws of physics and reality is in itself enough to lean me towards believing that a driving force behind the universe exists. But I DEFINITELY do not believe that God is identical, or even likely very close to the one presented in Judaism or any of its offshoots.

In any case, I admit that my beliefs are irrational because I cannot produce any evidence of this force existing. I believe it's reasonable to think that it is possible, and even likely because I feel that something has to be holding the basic laws of nature in existence. Otherwise to my mind if nothing had a "why" to it, I would think that existence would be hopelessly random. Trees could turn to birds and change place with something 10 light years away, then vanish, return, etc. The fact that life has consistent ORDER to it is the main reason for my belief. So you are not the only person who has beliefs other than atheism here, but you have to realize that what they are saying to you in regards to evidence existing, and contradictions and fallacies existing in the Bible, is RIGHT. You are deliberately blinding yourself if you do not comprehend this.

[Ghost Rider]

Now Durandal...he claims to be studying at Oxford...as an aspiring scienctist...I'm sure he knows about the birds and the bees.


Well I'm presuming...

[Nova Andromeda]

--On a more serious note why do you guys bother with people like Jonathan??? Don't they just piss you off or do you enjoy butting heads with them? Please tell me you don't actually think you will ever get through to them. Wouldn't arguing with slightly more rational people over truly disputed things be more fun? For instance, one could argue with Darth Wong about how much sexual pleasure it would take to compensate for the loss of brain cells due to reading Jonathan's posts.

[jegs2]

-eats popcorn-

Jon, for future reference: Biblical literalism = bad. Take it from a fellow Christian.

Thanks, but I'd rather take it from Jesus that all scripture is god breathed. I think he's more of an authority on it

I admire your guts, but I've a mental picture of a cow being slowly lowered into a lake filled with starving pirranah... Christianity is based on faith alone, but you already know that.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Okay, even I know that's incorrect. If JHVH-1 (lol) loves all countries and all peoples equally, why does that Bible state (several times) that the people of Isreal, specifically, are God's "chosen people"?

Because prior to Jesus, they were his people and had special status. Now we are all his people. We are all anew Israel effectively. there's a lot of symbolism about it in Mark 3 for instance. Jesus calling 12 apostles to lead his ministry and found a new Israel c.f. 12 tribes of original Israel.

And thanks for asking a question without chucking in a random insult or sneering remark. It makes pleasant change

That still leaves a whole lot of people out, Jonathan. Why, for example, did Jesus appear in the middle east? God is still showing favor here. What about Africans, Asians, aboriginal tribes in Australia, New Zealand and the Americas? If they were all at that point God's People as well, shouldn't there have been a Jesus born on every continent?

[Darth Wong]

Jegs2 is a cool dude.

[Ghost Rider]

That still leaves a whole lot of people out, Jonathan. Why, for example, did Jesus appear in the middle east? God is still showing favor here. What about Africans, Asians, aboriginal tribes in Australia, New Zealand and the Americas? If they were all at that point God's People as well, shouldn't there have been a Jesus born on every continent?

Not enough virgins

[Justforfun000]

Mike, is it really possible that this guy can be a scientist? I find it unfathomable that he could be versed in the scientific method and not realize how completely OPPOSITE his train of thought is when it comes to the subject of religion. How can anyone POSSIBLY be so obtuse to not see his error in thinking?

It really frightens me to realize that people can be this way. I seriously fear for mankind when people in the highest offices of power (namely - President), are in some ways in line of thinking with people like Boyd.

I guess if there is any excellent proof how strong imprinting is even in the human family, this is it.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

-eats popcorn-

Jon, for future reference: Biblical literalism = bad. Take it from a fellow Christian.

Thanks, but I'd rather take it from Jesus that all scripture is god breathed. I think he's more of an authority on it

I admire your guts, but I've a mental picture of a cow being slowly lowered into a lake filled with starving pirranah... Christianity is based on faith alone, but you already know that.

Well, he should know that... but sometimes if your faith is shaky, you try to justify it. Hell, Jon, I won't knock you for believing -- anybody here can tell you I believe some pretty odd stuff myself. But the minute you try to justify an illogical belief with logic, these ladies and gents around here get a trifle upset. I'm starting to pick up the habit myself, albeit slowly.

[Vympel]

I just like watching the fundies flail.

[Darth Wong]

Mike, is it really possible that this guy can be a scientist? I find it unfathomable that he could be versed in the scientific method and not realize how completely OPPOSITE his train of thought is when it comes to the subject of religion. How can anyone POSSIBLY be so obtuse to not see his error in thinking?

The Internet is full of people claiming to be scientists, particularly when it comes to discussions involving creationism or Star Trek. There is simply no way this guy is a legitimate scientist; even the tiny minority of scientists that subscribe to creationism (eg- Behe) are smart enough not to subscribe to Biblical literalism.

It really frightens me to realize that people can be this way. I seriously fear for mankind when people in the highest offices of power (namely - President), are in some ways in line of thinking with people like Boyd.

Yes, it's very disturbing. I was quite irritated when some idiot fundie ran for office in my country and people got upset at me because I dismissed his competence based on this fact. They accused me of religious intolerance for pointing out that a man with moronic, self-contradictory beliefs is obviously an idiot.

I guess if there is any excellent proof how strong imprinting is even in the human family, this is it.

The power of childhood indoctrination is strong. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

[Coyote]

Hello, Jonathan. I've been darting in and out of this and thought I'd let you know a few things. The phrase "Chosen People" for the Jews is not "Chosen to be better". It is not a master race ideology. The Jews are "Chosen" to perform the role of the priesthood in the World to Come. In heaven, whenever a religious service is to be performed, it will be a Jew who will be the officiator at the ceremony. And among the Jews, it will be a Cohen or a Levite who are the High Priests.

Women are exempt from the duties of the Priesthood since they were wise enough to hang onto their gold and not donate it for the making of the Golden Calf. Cohens and Levite have special favor for the same reasons.

As for other stuff:

Where did you prove that God's actions were inconsistent with what he had defined as just?

Everyone who is a believer (myself included) insists that God is a being of love, justice, and compassion. Yet he carried out or ordered acts of mass murder. I myself cannot make sense of this; hence my beliefs that the Bible is almost entirely the work of Man, used to rationalize evuil acts of genocide as "God-sanctioned".

Where did you prove that Jesus was not God?

Christianity claims legitimacy from Hebrew prophesy. To that extent, it leans heavily on the Old Testament. Yet in the Torah (OT) it specifically warns against false prophets that will try to lure the Jews from God. These prophets will perform real miracles but they are not the Messiah. The Messiah will be descended from the line of David; yet both Luke and Matthew cannot agree on the lineage-- they cannot even agree on who Jesus's Grandfather was.

Where did you prove that the Bible was false?

There are enough inconsistencies to lead us to this conclusion. If God is a being of good, love, compassion and justice, then why does the Bible portray him as a cruel, spiteful, smiting and killing being?

Does God want a world of harmony and love? Then why does the Bible not portray this? Strife and hate create a disharmonious world, that is obvious. Something's not matching up.

And you never answered my question-- what historical evidence?

[Darth Servo]

This Jonathan guy, I've got an idea how we could have some real fun with guys like him. I'll get back on this when I've collected enough of his BS.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Yo, HAS ANYONE noticed that two polar opposites can not see the same flaws inthemselves yet see it clearly in their counterparts on the other extreme.

This could explain why I usually stay the fuck out of this forum.

[Darth Wong]

Yo, HAS ANYONE noticed that two polar opposites can not see the same flaws inthemselves yet see it clearly in their counterparts on the other extreme.

This could explain why I usually stay the fuck out of this forum.

Are you implying that both sides are using the same logical fallacies? I dare you to back that up.