Werewolves or vampires?

[SirNitram]

In the old World of Darkness mythos....

Heh. The Vampires were the bitches of the WoD. I think the only group they'd reliably trounce would be a Changeling.

[Steven Snyder]

In the old World of Darkness mythos....

Heh. The Vampires were the bitches of the WoD. I think the only group they'd reliably trounce would be a Changeling.

A lone Hunter probably would get creamed, but the Changelings were definately not a combat oriented group. I can't think of any other group that can be killed by 'imaginary' weapons.

[Dooey Jo]

If you want to go by some myths, you can unmake a werewolf by simply saying its real name to it three times, or just chopping off a limb. Like vampires, and all other evil creatures, they can't cross running water. They can also only exist once a month. Most of the time, they look just like slightly larger, but otherwise normal, wolves and attack cattle.

Whereas some vampire myths depicts vampires as killable only by exorcism, and I'd like to see a werewolf do that
As for vampires being killed by the sun, I think the old movie Nosferatu invented that one. What need would people have to exhume and stake a vampire if all you need to do was to put it in the sunlight?

My point is, using myths and legends, you can pretty much attribute anything to vampires and werewolves, because they are so common elements of so many cultures, and they are different in every single one of them.

I find vampires a lot cooler. And they're way sexier than big hairy beasts (I'm think classic romantic vampires here, and not the slimy revenant/ghoul types)


Oh, a wtf was that about pirates > ninjas?! I certainly don't know that!

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Werewolves all the way. Werewolves kick ass.

[Miles Teg]

I guess one question should be answered:

It's commonly held (AFAIK) that vampires become stronger with age. Is this also true with werewolves?

My thoughts come from the movie Underworld really. Not exactly great cinema (but K. B. in a bodice? Does it for me!). Anyway, in that movie it showed the younger vamps getting killed fairly easily (though not without at least a small chance) by just about any werewolf, whereas the elder vampires could butcher the werewolves without hardly any effort.

Seems to me this model makes sense.

Young Vampire < Werewolf
Elder Vampire >> Werewolf

Of course, I don't recall any stories ever talking about the subject of strength vs. age for werewolves. Any help?


Miles Teg

[Bob the Gunslinger]

One word. Arucard.

That means vampires win. As for the angst thing, that's really a more modern development, and a sad one at that. Damn angst, ruining a perfectly good myth.

So is the uberness. It came in just after the angst crap.

Original vampires were practically zombies. Mindless, obsessive-cumpulsive undead who shambled through the night to prey on their families. The old stories have vamps dying from all kinds of stupid things, like getting caught in thorns and dying in the sun, stopping to count mustard seeds and dying in the sun (I think that and the previous one were eastern european stories), hearing a rooster crow at midnight and dying of fright (I think that one came from England?), being confused by two men sleeping upside-down to each other (so the vampire found feet at both ends) and then killing itself in rage.
That's pretty dumb.

And they were used to explain away outbreaks of illness in a village. You feel week? A vampire must be feeding on you. Here's some garlic.

Werewolves laugh at that shit. They don't play around. Even the ancient Romans had werewolf stories where the beasts could wipe out whole villages. And often people wanted to be werewolves in these stories, so that they could have the freedom and the power to ravage the countryside. Add to that the Japanese Fox-women creatures and their ubersexy prowess and mystical powers and you've got the (original) vamps beaten on every level.

Stupid Ann Rice changed all that when she decided to write poncy angsty funboi vampires with uber powers of angsty homoerotic doom.
And I suppose Dracula had something to do with the escalation of vamp abilities, too, but it just doesn't piss me off like Lestat does. Stupid Ann Rice gothybois.

[Captain Cyran]

So is the uberness. It came in just after the angst crap.

Original vampires were practically zombies. Mindless, obsessive-cumpulsive undead who shambled through the night to prey on their families. The old stories have vamps dying from all kinds of stupid things, like getting caught in thorns and dying in the sun, stopping to count mustard seeds and dying in the sun (I think that and the previous one were eastern european stories), hearing a rooster crow at midnight and dying of fright (I think that one came from England?), being confused by two men sleeping upside-down to each other (so the vampire found feet at both ends) and then killing itself in rage.
That's pretty dumb.

And they were used to explain away outbreaks of illness in a village. You feel week? A vampire must be feeding on you. Here's some garlic.

Werewolves laugh at that shit. They don't play around. Even the ancient Romans had werewolf stories where the beasts could wipe out whole villages. And often people wanted to be werewolves in these stories, so that they could have the freedom and the power to ravage the countryside. Add to that the Japanese Fox-women creatures and their ubersexy prowess and mystical powers and you've got the (original) vamps beaten on every level.

Stupid Ann Rice changed all that when she decided to write poncy angsty funboi vampires with uber powers of angsty homoerotic doom.
And I suppose Dracula had something to do with the escalation of vamp abilities, too, but it just doesn't piss me off like Lestat does. Stupid Ann Rice gothybois.

"Original" vamps? Dude, if you want to get into the original vamps, we're getting into when they were literally dieties. Original vampires were fucking powerful, as for them being only zombies, wrong again. While many myths have them as zombies, this was mainly in Europe. In Africa and the East vampires are demons. Then there are of course the Indus (I think) who had a vampire-like god that they worshiped, and if I remember correctly they weren't the only ones. In Europe vampires got pussified.

You also make the mistake of throwing all of the vampire weaknesses on vampires. Weaknesses of vampires changed between TOWNS. There are literally hundreds of different ways to kill a vampire, and they have thousands of different powers. Anne Rice had nothing to do with the escalation of vampire powers. She simply bothybois'd them... Which I will never forgive her for.

An added scaryness of vampires is the fact that there are people today claiming to be them, and people of the past that did things attributed to vampires. (The countess of Blood anyone?)

[SirNitram]

The VampWanking is getting pretty silly.

No, 'Nosferatu' didn't make up the daylight weakness. It is in passages I've translated from Latin. It might not be 'Burst into flame', but it's been there even in the legends of the flying head vampires of Japan.

Cyran, you need a smack around the skull. One instance of a deity which shared traits with the suckheads, does not instantly mean 'Ancient vamps were deities!' European vamps during Rome were still the bitches of an educated man with something to hold the sucker down with.

[Captain Cyran]

The VampWanking is getting pretty silly.

No, 'Nosferatu' didn't make up the daylight weakness. It is in passages I've translated from Latin. It might not be 'Burst into flame', but it's been there even in the legends of the flying head vampires of Japan.

Agreed, sunlight is actually a common weakness, be it them starting on fire or, as is actually more common, they return to their dead state, where they were burned soon after by the villagers.

Cyran, you need a smack around the skull. One instance of a deity which shared traits with the suckheads, does not instantly mean 'Ancient vamps were deities!' European vamps during Rome were still the bitches of an educated man with something to hold the sucker down with.

No shit, think I don't know that. As the world got more educated, vampires powers got weaker and weaker. In roman, greek, or medeival times yes. Vampires were the bitches of the educated man. But the "original" vampires were badasses, most often as dieties or close to it. Which was my argument.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

EDIT: This was a double post. Oops.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Thank you, Sir Nitram, that was elegantly stated.

Cyran, I think you are confusing various other monsters with vampires. Vampires are revenants in human bodies who drink the blood of the living, and as such cannot possibly be gods.

And as frightening as Elizabeth Bathory and Vlad the Impaler are, whenever a madman did something truly gruesome, it was blamed on a werewolf.

[Captain Cyran]

Thank you, Sir Nitram, that was elegantly stated.

Cyran, I think you are confusing various other monsters with vampires. Vampires are revenants in human bodies who drink the blood of the living, and as such cannot possibly be gods.

By the European definition, you are exactly right. That's what they were. I'm not arguing that. But in China they sucked out your soul, and were demons. In Africa some stole peoples skin, and were demons. And in India, there was a dark god who drank blood. Different vampires existed all over the place of varying levels of power, that power diminishing over time.

[Captain Cyran]

And as frightening as Elizabeth Bathory and Vlad the Impaler are, whenever a madman did something truly gruesome, it was blamed on a werewolf.

Any examples of this? I can't think of any famous ones off the top of my head.

[SirNitram]

The VampWanking is getting pretty silly.

No, 'Nosferatu' didn't make up the daylight weakness. It is in passages I've translated from Latin. It might not be 'Burst into flame', but it's been there even in the legends of the flying head vampires of Japan.

Agreed, sunlight is actually a common weakness, be it them starting on fire or, as is actually more common, they return to their dead state, where they were burned soon after by the villagers.

Cyran, you need a smack around the skull. One instance of a deity which shared traits with the suckheads, does not instantly mean 'Ancient vamps were deities!' European vamps during Rome were still the bitches of an educated man with something to hold the sucker down with.

No shit, think I don't know that. As the world got more educated, vampires powers got weaker and weaker. In roman, greek, or medeival times yes. Vampires were the bitches of the educated man. But the "original" vampires were badasses, most often as dieties or close to it. Which was my argument.

Ah yes.. And these 'original' vampires are from where, the depths of your ass?

Roman/Greek legends are the first sign of European suckheads. They were pussies.

African bloodsuckers weren't all that impressive. They lacked the utter pussification of 'Can't hurt you if you don't consent!', but had no 'divine' powers. They were monsters, not undead humans, and they struck fast, but that was about it. Oh, I think they also spread disease.

Orient? Forget it. They were so low on the totem pole they rated below insect spirits.

[SirNitram]

Thank you, Sir Nitram, that was elegantly stated.

Cyran, I think you are confusing various other monsters with vampires. Vampires are revenants in human bodies who drink the blood of the living, and as such cannot possibly be gods.

By the European definition, you are exactly right. That's what they were. I'm not arguing that. But in China they sucked out your soul, and were demons. In Africa some stole peoples skin, and were demons. And in India, there was a dark god who drank blood. Different vampires existed all over the place of varying levels of power, that power diminishing over time.

You're actually.. Exactly wrong. Vampires started as pussies. They were 'temptor monsters'. Put one up against a Minotaur, for example, and you have flat suckhead. In ancient cultures, they were a minor worry compared to the great beasts which didn't screw around, leaping straight to the 'Kill you' part.

It was Victorian society that revitalized the Suckhead and tried to cram every legend of a temptor monster into the archetype and ramp up their power. Hence why Dracula somehow had powers that would smoke any Roman vamp.

[Captain Cyran]

Ah yes.. And these 'original' vampires are from where, the depths of your ass?

I got the information from a book called "The Vampire Encyclopedia" unfortuanately it's at home and I'm at college so I can't get exact dates and civilizations.

Roman/Greek legends are the first sign of European suckheads. They were pussies.

(Scratch that. I'd misread)

African bloodsuckers weren't all that impressive. They lacked the utter pussification of 'Can't hurt you if you don't consent!', but had no 'divine' powers. They were monsters, not undead humans, and they struck fast, but that was about it. Oh, I think they also spread disease.

Still better than the European vampires, correct?

Orient? Forget it. They were so low on the totem pole they rated below insect spirits.

I did not know that, still, better than European zombies with half a brain.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Thank you, Sir Nitram, that was elegantly stated.

Cyran, I think you are confusing various other monsters with vampires. Vampires are revenants in human bodies who drink the blood of the living, and as such cannot possibly be gods.

By the European definition, you are exactly right. That's what they were. I'm not arguing that. But in China they sucked out your soul, and were demons. In Africa some stole peoples skin, and were demons. And in India, there was a dark god who drank blood. Different vampires existed all over the place of varying levels of power, that power diminishing over time.

Cyran, are you lumping multiple creatures together under one name?

The "Chinese Vampire" hops, breathes, rapes, has the p'ai or p'o or whatever minimal soul thing and hardly looks like its human host--it has pale blue skin, red eyes, malformed clawlike hands and a long-ass tongue. Even if that still falls into the vampire camp, you can stop it with rice, a yellow Post-it note to the forehead or by tripping it. I'm sooo shaking.

The african creature you describe simply isn't a vampire any more than a ghoul is a vampire. And Kali? Not a vampire. If you want to talk about gods who fit the bill for these creatures, how many gods have been known to change their shape in a manner similar to a werewolf? All the tough ones.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

And as frightening as Elizabeth Bathory and Vlad the Impaler are, whenever a madman did something truly gruesome, it was blamed on a werewolf.

Any examples of this? I can't think of any famous ones off the top of my head.

Well, there is the Beast of Gevaudin (sp?), some famous murderers in England... Damn. I can't remember the names, but I can get them for you in a matter of weeks (my mythology books are all in boxes in my parents' garage). Until then, nevermind.

[SirNitram]

Ah yes.. And these 'original' vampires are from where, the depths of your ass?

I got the information from a book called "The Vampire Encyclopedia" unfortuanately it's at home and I'm at college so I can't get exact dates and civilizations.

Roman/Greek legends are the first sign of European suckheads. They were pussies.

Source?

You can start naming sources for this 'Ancient vamps are badasses' shit before I start hauling out page numbers from textbooks in the attic.

African bloodsuckers weren't all that impressive. They lacked the utter pussification of 'Can't hurt you if you don't consent!', but had no 'divine' powers. They were monsters, not undead humans, and they struck fast, but that was about it. Oh, I think they also spread disease.

Still better than the European vampires, correct?

Not really, outsider of the plaguebringer-esque things. And considering the things in Africa, there's alot of shit that's worse than these. They also shared aversion to sunlight.

Orient? Forget it. They were so low on the totem pole they rated below insect spirits.

I did not know that, still, better than European zombies with half a brain.

When did I say anything about that? Roman ones had human-level cunning and intelligence.. They are temptor monsters.

The problem is you're looking to one dark god who drank blood and using this as a basis, instead of recignizing it's an outgrowth of the vast powers many ancient cultures ascribed to blood.

[Captain Cyran]

Thank you, Sir Nitram, that was elegantly stated.

Cyran, I think you are confusing various other monsters with vampires. Vampires are revenants in human bodies who drink the blood of the living, and as such cannot possibly be gods.

By the European definition, you are exactly right. That's what they were. I'm not arguing that. But in China they sucked out your soul, and were demons. In Africa some stole peoples skin, and were demons. And in India, there was a dark god who drank blood. Different vampires existed all over the place of varying levels of power, that power diminishing over time.

Cyran, are you lumping multiple creatures together under one name?

The "Chinese Vampire" hops, breathes, rapes, has the p'ai or p'o or whatever minimal soul thing and hardly looks like its human host--it has pale blue skin, red eyes, malformed clawlike hands and a long-ass tongue. Even if that still falls into the vampire camp, you can stop it with rice, a yellow Post-it note to the forehead or by tripping it. I'm sooo shaking.

The african creature you describe simply isn't a vampire any more than a ghoul is a vampire. And Kali? Not a vampire. If you want to talk about gods who fit the bill for these creatures, how many gods have been known to change their shape in a manner similar to a werewolf? All the tough ones.

Point taken. I will conceed that vampires are, for most of history until the Romance era, pussies.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

See, that wasn't so bad.

And you still have your wanked-out anime vampires that can go all supa sayan pawa-ahpu hentai over young schoolgirls to keep you happy. You can keep them.

[Captain Cyran]

You can start naming sources for this 'Ancient vamps are badasses' shit before I start hauling out page numbers from textbooks in the attic.

Been there, done that. Oh, and I found the source, kinda. I have some notes from the book on my computer. The Vampire Encyclopedia states that 'vampires' in their earliest stages go back to Assyrian Empire era (~3000 B.C.). And here's a direct quote from the book involving that dark god.

Like death itself, the vampire god is found in the earliest, blackest, and most dreadful memories of humanity. The terror of the night, of blood-drinking divinities, and of loosing one’s life to an utterly evil creature are found in countries all over the world. Such gods probably helped give substance to legends and to circulating tales of vampires, … They were normally depicted with fangs, red eyes, and an insatiable appetite for blood and were dressed with such adornments as human heads, skulls, and other organs. … The vampire god epitomizes the eternal nature of the undead and the general powerlessness of primitive man to oppose them

Not really, outsider of the plaguebringer-esque things. And considering the things in Africa, there's alot of shit that's worse than these. They also shared aversion to sunlight.

Alright.

When did I say anything about that? Roman ones had human-level cunning and intelligence.. They are temptor monsters.

You didn't but Bob did. You are right though.

The problem is you're looking to one dark god who drank blood and using this as a basis, instead of recignizing it's an outgrowth of the vast powers many ancient cultures ascribed to blood.

I did say that it was a good example for some of the original vampires, a la Babylon/Assyria. Beyond that I admit vampires are very weak. And doesn't the fact that it was an outgrowth of the vast power many ancient cultures ascribed to blood help my argument not hinder it?

[Captain Cyran]

See, that wasn't so bad.

And you still have your wanked-out anime vampires that can go all supa sayan pawa-ahpu hentai over young schoolgirls to keep you happy. You can keep them.

And you still have your furry fetish.

Actually my favorite vampires come from WoD (minus the angst... yeah I know that takes a lot out of it). Where, as Nitram said, they are pretty much everybodies bitch.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Cyran, that quote doesn't seem to be anything more than evocative prose to help get readers into the mood to me. They don't give any names, but by using the phrase "vampire god" they are pretty much admitting that it is not a vampire but rather a deity that shares some descriptive characteristics with vampires.

And the zombie comment was really more on an old vampire's speed and strength than his intelligence. Obviously they were able to count and think to some degree. They had to persuade their victims to invite them in, after all.

[frigidmagi]

A vampire falls to anyone with minium prep time. Just add wood or better yet don't invite the sucker into your home.

A Were on the other hand. In Celt legend Werewolves were Shamens who were granted that power by the spirits and gods. In Norse folktale men blessed by Odin with battle madness became unkillable Bears. In India a were tiger was royality. In Japan Were Foxes slew princes. In North America the Wendigo would terrorize whole tribes.

Before the Victorians got ahold of them, vamps were pests. What you really feared was a were-creature.