NecronLord: 17.28km AT-AT range is false

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-03-05 10:46pm

Taken from this thread

Now, the basic bone of contention is that visuals > dialog and that the troops in the shot where the AT-AT fires and the troops in the shot where the bolts strike the shield generator are the same troops, therefore there's no way it's 17.28km away and it must be referring to some other unit of distance.

Now, leaving aside other points of contention which seem to have been dealt with, there is one issue: do you think those are the same troops? I say no, he says yes. What do you think? My reasons for saying no are:

- no continuity of debris on the ground in either shot
- more troops in the second shot rather than the first (that's just the foreground)
- troops in the second shot aren't in the same position as we'd expect them to be if it was just a "continuing" cut from the first.

Go back to page 1 of the thread to see the relevant screenshot

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2005-03-05 11:20pm

Necron and Cap'n Hat seem to be basing their idiocy on the notion that there are Snowtroopers in either of those shots.

This just proves that Snowtroopers are capable of morphing their appearance to look just like Rebel Troopers! An amazing new capability of the Imperials has been discovered! From this evidence, I conclude that Imperial shape-shifting ability is superior to Changelings.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2005-03-05 11:41pm

Does anyone have a copy of the old Hoth minature game? I lost the e-book of the rulebook and supporting datum, but IIRC, the game mentions something about infantry elements raiding into the trenches from the AT-AT and lighter units, and then was supplemented by additional snowtroopers from the Executor.

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2005-03-06 01:08am

Did they also notice that the generator appears to have a cloaking device in one shot?

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2005-03-06 01:11am

Eh, didn't ITW put the shots Vears fired at 3 klicks, give or take?

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2005-03-06 01:31am

Sure looked that way, yeah. Doesn't really explain "one seven decimal two eight," and I'm having a lot of trouble matching up the terrain in each shot to determine where the walker(s) are. Forget the troops, you should be able to match up the rocks, snow, and debris, but I can't at any point, except the two identical shots, one with the generator and one without. Gonna go rewatch a couple times.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-03-06 01:45am

Chris OFarrell wrote:Eh, didn't ITW put the shots Vears fired at 3 klicks, give or take?

No- using the "5 miles" scale marker on the ITW, it actually looks like 10 miles- which is of course well within the order of magnitude for 17.28km.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2005-03-06 02:10am

Checking with someone who has ITW, they say its inside the 5 miles marker. Which would put it at 8 klicks. Nowhere near 17-18 klicks. Wonder if someone could scan the page in question and post it...

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-03-06 02:30am

Chris OFarrell wrote:Checking with someone who has ITW, they say its inside the 5 miles marker. Which would put it at 8 klicks. Nowhere near 17-18 klicks. Wonder if someone could scan the page in question and post it...

If I had a scanner, I would. But there's no way it's within that marker, I marked a piece of paper appropriately and lined them up. Unless they're going off the wrong thing- there's a line pointing to a point allong Blizzard 1's route (not the end of the route) labelled:

"Veers finally fires fatal blasts at Rebels' power generator".

I don't know how anyone could honestly say it was witin the 5 mile marker, that's absurd.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-06 05:55am

No. The "bone of contention" is that the rebels in screenshot one are part of the same group as the rebels in screenshot two. Aside from this being the rather obvious intent of the scene, several of them run past camera point one, and can be seemingly seen in camera point two, so unless they can run several kilometers in a matter of seconds (and last I heard, rebels aren't superman) the two images are indeed taken from roughly the same place.

I will present additional screenshots on this matter tonight, as I am going now.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-06 06:20am

SPOOFE wrote:I conclude that Imperial shape-shifting ability is superior to Changelings.

Aside from the fact that there are no snowtroopers. What the fuck does this have to do with Star Trek? Oh yes. That's right. Precisely nothing.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2005-03-06 06:30am

NecronLord wrote:
SPOOFE wrote:I conclude that Imperial shape-shifting ability is superior to Changelings.
Aside from the fact that there are no snowtroopers. What the fuck does this have to do with Star Trek? Oh yes. That's right. Precisely nothing.

I think he was being SLIGHTLY sarcastic....

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-06 10:45am

Now, here's a question. Does this map in ITW have a ten mile marker? If so, is the point where 'Blizzard One' fires on the generator within that marker?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-06 12:32pm

Image 1:

The main group of retreating rebel troops.

Image 2:

The view from General Veers' Scope

Image 3:

(Click for Large Version)

Retreating rebels in the foreground, Blizzard One in the background.

Image 4:

The rebel scum run past the camera. You will note that Blizzard One is now aiming directly over the heads of the small group of three rebels closest to .the camera.

Image 5:

Blizzard One's auxiliary guns have just killed (well, knocked over) a Rebel, and it is about to fire its main guns.

Image 6:

This is one of the previous screenshots. The tightly clustered group of three rebels who ran past the camera are now behind it, and the bolts are passing over to the left of the camera.

Image 7:

(Click for Large Version)

The Bolt in flight to the generator. It is passing directly over another tightly clustered group of rebel soldiers. Once more there are three of them. They are carrying the same pistol or submachine gun weapons that the group in images three and four (as opposed to the rifle of the dying rebel in image 5). The rebel on the far left of image seven carries a weapon on a strap over his right shoulder, possibly a rifle, or some form of shoulder missile launcher) This strap is partially visible on the shoulder of the foreground rebel in Image 3. If they are not the same group, they are uncannily similar.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2005-03-06 01:18pm

I just watched the scene. Even though the "maximum firepower" bolts seem to fly slower than regular bolts, I would say that bolt flight speed makes that supposition impossible. Unless you want to claim they at least a magnitude slower for some reason. I'm not going to claim any certainties without measurements, however.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-06 01:29pm

It has already been established that blaster bolts have no set speed. Even the same weapons, such as the Falcon's guns, vary their velocity wildly.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-06 01:42pm

The bolts fire at 32:08 and impact at 32:09. taking around 8 frames for all three to impact the generator. They appear with the AT-AT in the background for no less than five frames. The bolt that kills the trooper in Image 5 only appears for a single frame.

However, you will note that Blizzard One fires several bolts, which reduces the flight time of each bolt. The first bolt is only visible for three frames, the first of which it is a simple dot on the gun, and the third of which only half of it is visible. This doesn't seem to be an appreciable difference in speed from the bolt that killed the rebel soldier. As mentioned above, this is a phonomenally bad way to time anything.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2005-03-06 03:23pm

Quick question...the equipment the Rebel troops carrying "looking uncannily similar" doesn't say much...you expect a certain level of standard outfits and loadouts for troops, no?

I personally have no objection to your line of reasoning, but I'm sure this point would've been brought up eventually...

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-06 03:40pm

It's not just the idea of them having the same equipment, it's that it's a group of three, who are directly under Blizzard One's blaster bolts, with two pistol weapons, one man with a rifle on his shoulder in the far left postion (as viewed from behind) some distance from a larger cluster of men.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-03-06 04:15pm

I don't recall the exact dialouge, could it be a bearing rather than a range?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-06 04:19pm

"Distance to power generators?"

"One Seven Decimal Two Eight."

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-03-06 04:39pm

NecronLord wrote:"Distance to power generators?"

"One Seven Decimal Two Eight."

Never mind then.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2005-03-06 04:45pm

Has anyone scaled the height of the troopers against not only the AT AT in that shot, but against the Shield Gen?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-06 04:47pm

I do not see the point. The size of the power generator seems to be unknown, so I can't see what good it would do.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2005-03-06 04:51pm

Do we have to assume a meter in starwars is the same as a meter in our world? I was counting the meters per frame traveled in the DS trench and realized the fighters were traveling a great many meters per second (forgot how many, maybe 800-1000 ish) which struck me as well above the speed they appeared to move at, from the subjective look of the trench walls flying back that is.

It was something like ~1000 or so meters per second (I may be very off though so don't quote me) while the fuzzy details on the wall seemed to be moving past at more like <=500 mph (220 m/s). If I am anywhere NEAR accurate then a starwars meter may be ~1/3-1/4 a normal meter. Which is makes 17-18 km much more like 5 of our km.

Just a thought, if anyone wishes more I can actually look up the real numbers and develop this more.