Why were there so few ships at the Battle of Endor

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Yeah, getting their first victory after nearly twenty years strikes me as absurd.

[Elfdart]

The EU writers are the opposite of what you accuse them of being here. They're hacks, but minimilist hacks. On screen evidence does not imply small fleets at all. You're jumping to conclusions.

No, I just realize that in order to reconcile the huge numbers cited in EU with what we see on screen, one has to jump through hoops.

Where was it stated that this was every ship they could muster? Furthermore, the Rebels did not count on the Imperials having much defenses. Their plan was for their capital ships to form a perimeter around the DS. They expected to be able to do this, which would have been impossible if there was a fleet there.

Mothma says the Death Star is "relatively unprotected". The reason they brought what large ships they could scrape together was in case there were any larger Imperial craft nearby. It's absurd to think that the Rebels come across a once-in-a-lifetime chance to thrash the Empire and possibly kill the Emperor at the same time -so they hold back capital ships. What are they saving them for?

That explains everything. No need to go further and contradict the EU.

I'll be the judge of that.

This is ludicrously minimilist. ISDs are the smallest Imperial capital ships seen in canon. There were two of them around just Tatooine.

Actually three -because Tattooine had something VERY important. They didn't have three at Bespin, Dagobah, Yavin, or Hoth (until Vader's squadron showed up).

The Death Stars are equivalent to millions of ISDs. There's no reason why the Empire can't build 25,000 ISDs, and lots of reasons why they should have been able to build much more.

You're confusing what they theoretically could have built with what they might have actually built. The Empire doesn't seem all that impoverished, so maybe it's not a barracks state like Sparta or North Korea where everything goes to the military. For a real world comparison, keep in mind that countries like Spain, Holland, Portugal and most recently Britain managed to rule vast empires with small numbers of dedicated warships and small armies. It's easier, cheaper and more effective to pick up an armed force and carry it to trouble spots than to have garrisons everywhere.

Maybe they were engaging the Empire in numerous small conflicts across the galaxy? Mon Mothma says that's why the Empire's forces were spread out so much.

Bullshit. She says the Imperial fleet is "spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us." They're looking for the Rebel fleet and fighter bases, not uprisings or skirmishes.

[Techno_Union]

Small fleet.

That was the biggest fleet ever in the Empires history.

Actually some odd years before ANH, Emperor Palpatine ordered a fleet of 500 Imperial Capital Ships to blockade the Thon Bonka Nebula. The RotJ fleet was small in comparison.

[Elfdart]

Yeah, getting their first victory after nearly twenty years strikes me as absurd.

That would depend on when the Rebellion actually took up arms against the Empire. If they spent fifteen years of being screwed by the Empire and/ or working up the nerve and the means to do something about it, it's not so farfetched. Anyway, the opening crawl on ANH disagrees with you:

It is a period of civil war.
Rebel spaceships, striking
from a hidden base, have won
their first victory against
the evil Galactic Empire.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Yeah, I suppose you're right. I was thinking victories to any degree at all for some reason. Nevermind.

[Gustav32Vasa]

Small fleet.

That was the biggest fleet ever in the Empires history.

Actually some odd years before ANH, Emperor Palpatine ordered a fleet of 500 Imperial Capital Ships to blockade the Thon Bonka Nebula. The RotJ fleet was small in comparison.

What is higher canon? The movie novels or.. eh wherever you got that from?

SW canon status is really complicated.

[Mange]

The Rebels' first win came right before ANH.

That was only the fighters from the Yavin base. Never said it was the first win for the entire Rebellion.

I'm pretty sure he referred to the event described in the opening crawl of ANH (correct me if I'm wrong).

[VT-16]

in order to reconcile the huge numbers cited in EU with what we see on screen

We never see the entire Galactic Empire and it´s combined forces on-screen.

Anyway, the opening crawl on ANH disagrees with you:

It is a period of civil war.
Rebel spaceships, striking
from a hidden base, have won
their first victory against
the evil Galactic Empire.

Where does it say these fighters and that one base constituted the entire Rebellion? Oh, that´s right, it doesn´t.

[Elfdart]

Small fleet.

That was the biggest fleet ever in the Empires history.

Actually some odd years before ANH, Emperor Palpatine ordered a fleet of 500 Imperial Capital Ships to blockade the Thon Bonka Nebula. The RotJ fleet was small in comparison.

What is higher canon? The movie novels or.. eh wherever you got that from?

SW canon status is really complicated.

I'm a bit of a fundamentalist when it comes to SW. It keeps things simple. If the SSD is listed as being only five times as long as an ISD, when my own two eyes tell me otherwise while watching ROTJ... See? Easy as cake.

[Stofsk]

What is higher canon? The movie novels or.. eh wherever you got that from?

SW canon status is really complicated.

No, it isn't. A heirarchy is quite simple to understand: what's on top is better than what's bellow. At the same time, what's below supports what's on top.

So in this case. Everything is canon, unless something from below is out-of-synch with what's on top. Then that becomes apochryphal. But that hasn't happened in this case. In order for the Empire to build the Death Star, it MUST have the resource and industrial capacity to build many thousands of ISDs. At the very least the capability is there in the film and can be inferred from it.

Why did the Emperor need to have hundreds of ISDs at Endor, exactly? His battlestation outmassed anything the rebels could ever hope to throw at him, and it was protected by a powerful energy shield. I suspect that if you reduced the Battle of Endor to the level of RISK, when it came to the Emperor's turn he rolled snake eyes. Repeatedly.

[Gunhead]

That "first victory" is IMHO correct. It's the first rebel victory that counts for something. Rebel raids and such are easily swept up under the rug as common pirates and such. With the destruction of the DS they showed the empire "yes we can hurt you". In the EU the rebels also used it to show the rest of the galaxy the Empire is not invulnerable.
Technically the first victory would be stealing the DS plans, but huge exploding Death Stars are more media sexy.

-Gunhead

[Gustav32Vasa]

What is higher canon? The movie novels or.. eh wherever you got that from?

SW canon status is really complicated.

No, it isn't. A heirarchy is quite simple to understand: what's on top is better than what's bellow. At the same time, what's below supports what's on top.

So in this case. Everything is canon, unless something from below is out-of-synch with what's on top. Then that becomes apochryphal. But that hasn't happened in this case. In order for the Empire to build the Death Star, it MUST have the resource and industrial capacity to build many thousands of ISDs. At the very least the capability is there in the film and can be inferred from it.

Why did the Emperor need to have hundreds of ISDs at Endor, exactly? His battlestation outmassed anything the rebels could ever hope to throw at him, and it was protected by a powerful energy shield. I suspect that if you reduced the Battle of Endor to the level of RISK, when it came to the Emperor's turn he rolled snake eyes. Repeatedly.

The Empire can build millions of ISD, that is clear from the existence of DS2, but in RotJ novel it says that the fleet was the biggest in the history of the Empire. Unless the info you got is higher canon then the movie novels, its wrong.

[Elfdart]

We never see the entire Galactic Empire and it´s combined forces on-screen.

We never see 25,000 ISDs either.

Where does it say these fighters and that one base constituted the entire Rebellion? Oh, that´s right, it doesn´t.

The Rebel bases are the center of the Empire's attention in ANH and TESB. Either they've only used small craft because that's all they have at this point or the fighters represent some kind of trump card for the Rebellion -the one advantage they have over the Empire.

[Stofsk]

The Empire can build millions of ISD, that is clear from the existence of DS2, but in RotJ novel it says that the fleet was the biggest in the history of the Empire. Unless the info you got is higher canon then the movie novels, its wrong.

The novels are below the movies, and therefore if the movies imply something significant, then the movies prevail. If the movies show us a large scale, 900km diameter long battlestation being built by an empire remotely (IE, not in orbit of a major industrial world), then we can infer from that impressive industrial resources; if the novels say differently, then they are wrong, because their place is in support of the movies and they are no longer doing that.

If the novelisation said that the Imperial Fleet is the largest in the history of the Empire, a few possibilities occur:

1. Hyperbole

2. Historical error (for Suspension of Disbelief we assume these texts are 'historical' for the purposes of in-universe discussions)

3. 'technically' true, or a half truth. It's possible this actually was the largest gathering of ISDs for a fight up until that point, but this doesn't state even bigger fleets aren't possible. How big is the USN compared to it's Seventh Fleet? Perhaps the Endor fleet was the biggest fleet, but not the biggest organisation of Imperial ships up until that point (so IOW, a fleet could be something different to, say, a squadron or Sector Group).

Can you provide the quotation from the novel in question?

[Stofsk]

We never see the entire Galactic Empire and it´s combined forces on-screen.

We never see 25,000 ISDs either.

We don't have to. The Death Stars outmass 25K ISDs, which tells us the industrial capacity is there.

[The Original Nex]

I always took the "command ships" line to mean ships known to carry seniormost Imperials like Vader. Vader himself is seen on both versions of Imperator-class ISDs and the Executor.

I always felt that Han's line, in reponse to Luke, directly implies Executor class ships, not just any old Imperial Ship with senior officers/officials.

They knew Vader had an Executor-class ship. Luke said that the ship they were cruising on by was indeed Vader's ship. Han said, they can't know that for certain because there are lots of "Commandships," by that, I believe he meant "there are alot of ships of that class." That makes the most sense to me at least.

[Gustav32Vasa]

3. 'technically' true, or a half truth. It's possible this actually was the largest gathering of ISDs for a fight up until that point, but this doesn't state even bigger fleets aren't possible. How big is the USN compared to it's Seventh Fleet? Perhaps the Endor fleet was the biggest fleet, but not the biggest organisation of Imperial ships up until that point (so IOW, a fleet could be something different to, say, a squadron or Sector Group).

I would think thats the correct one. Atleast thats what I thought when I read it.

[The Original Nex]

We never see 25,000 ISDs either.

I think that was the point.

Also consider that the last three films (Epi. IV-VI) take place entirely in the Outer Rim, on planets of relatively no consequence. There's no reason for there to be a huge Imperial presence in these areas of space.

[Star-Blighter]

1) ROTJ implies that this is an all-or-nothing gamble for the Rebellion, so every large ship they can muster is used. That's why their fleet at Endor is mostly made up (numberswise) of frigates, blockade runners and transports -ships that are completely outclassed by any model of Star Destroyer.

That always kinda bothered me. Why bring capital ships at all if only fighters were capable of destroying the Death Star?

The combined firepower of both the Deathstar surface guns and the Stardestroyer Turbolasers would have utterly shreded an unsupported strike-craft attack, not to mention the massive amount of TIE fighters. Those rebel capital ships were acting as cover, forcing the Imperials to engage them AS WELL as the fighters.

Unsupported fighters<fighters supported by heavier capships.

[Jim Raynor]

Elfdart wrote:
No, I just realize that in order to reconcile the huge numbers cited in EU with what we see on screen, one has to jump through hoops.

There is NOTHING to reconcile except your own unsupported notions. The only thing wrong with the EU numbers is that they're probably way too CONSERVATIVE. There might be 25,000 ISDs, but Dark Empire states that there are over 12 million inhabited worlds, and the Imperial Sourcebook says that there are 1 million member worlds and 50 million colonies, territories, protectorates, etc. Using the lower Dark Empire number, that comes out to only about 2 ISDs for every thousand worlds in the Empire. That's not a lot at all. If we go by the ISB's numbers, then you only have about 5 ISDs for every 10,000 worlds.

Mothma says the Death Star is "relatively unprotected". The reason they brought what large ships they could scrape together was in case there were any larger Imperial craft nearby. It's absurd to think that the Rebels come across a once-in-a-lifetime chance to thrash the Empire and possibly kill the Emperor at the same time -so they hold back capital ships. What are they saving them for?

The Rebels needed to have ships all over the galaxy to quickly take advantage of the Emperor's demise. They didn't expect any resistence at Endor. Thre is no reason for them to bring more ships than they needed to do the job.

I'll be the judge of that.

There is absolutely NO reason to stick with a position when an alternate explanation exists that is both completely valid AND doesn't contradict the EU.

Actually three -because Tattooine had something VERY important. They didn't have three at Bespin, Dagobah, Yavin, or Hoth (until Vader's squadron showed up).

Bespin, Dagobah, Yavin, and Hoth aren't under Imperial control. Three of those don't even have any civilization, and Bespin only had one small floating city. There's no reason for there to have been ships there.

You're confusing what they theoretically could have built with what they might have actually built. The Empire doesn't seem all that impoverished, so maybe it's not a barracks state like Sparta or North Korea where everything goes to the military. For a real world comparison, keep in mind that countries like Spain, Holland, Portugal and most recently Britain managed to rule vast empires with small numbers of dedicated warships and small armies. It's easier, cheaper and more effective to pick up an armed force and carry it to trouble spots than to have garrisons everywhere.

The Empire is a military dictatorship based on fear and force. Every source describes it as having garrisons everywhere. It needs to maintain a presence on every world, many of which aren't particularly fond of it.

Bullshit. She says the Imperial fleet is "spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us." They're looking for the Rebel fleet and fighter bases, not uprisings or skirmishes.

That could very well mean that they're chasing Rebel forces around, or that the Rebels are keeping them busy with hit and runs. The

[Jim Raynor]

The combined firepower of both the Deathstar surface guns and the Stardestroyer Turbolasers would have utterly shreded an unsupported strike-craft attack, not to mention the massive amount of TIE fighters. Those rebel capital ships were acting as cover, forcing the Imperials to engage them AS WELL as the fighters.

Unsupported fighters<fighters supported by heavier capships.

The DSII had more guns than the DSI, but I still doubt the density of turbolasers on its surface was very high. There's also the fact that a whole third of the station was incomplete and exposed to attack. The fighters could go in on that side, completely ignoring all the guns on other parts of the station. There weren't that many Star Destroyers there either, before the fleet came in to surprise the Rebels. I think it's far more likely that the capital ships were there to prevent escape.

[Jim Raynor]

Elfdart wrote:
Maybe those thirty or so ISDs were the bulk of his top-of-the-line ships. Maybe Palpatine didn't have tens of thousands of ISDs and in fact, most of the Empire's fleet was made up of much smaller ships with the heaviest, most powerful ships assigned to guard key areas and to form roaming strike forces. With hyperdrive that can cover the entire galaxy in hours and weapons that can wipe out the surfaces of most planets, and the only real resistance coming from two score assorted Rebel ships, why build 25,000 ISDs and enough SSDs that any hack EU writer can pull one out of his ass in a futile attempt to give his lame story some credibility?

There's another reason why this doesn't make sense. If ISDs are so few and uber, assigned only to protect the most vital assets or to elite roaming forces, it would be EXTREMELY obvious if all of them gathered up together in one area. If the USA gathered together the majority of its supercarriers, everyone in the world would notice. This was supposed to work when the object was to lead the Rebels into a trap? It makes far more sense if those ISDs were just from the local sector fleet, which is what the ROTJ novelization says.

[Stark]

So in ANH, why didn't the Empire send a SINGLE FUCKING ISD to kill EVERY MOTHERFUCKER ON YAVIN in MINUTES before the rebels KNEW WHAT WAS HAPPENING? Why wait for the DS? Why wait for the power buildup, the dogfights on the surface? HMMMMMMMMMMM?

Using the DS was the POINT. Yavin was a target because the leaders were there: if the Rebels were smart their ships would be hidden all over the place until needed, not in the same place all the beardy generals live. The Emperor (and Tarkin, its likely) enjoyed the thought of using the DS to destroy the rebellion - they both use this phrase - and not the starfleet. Maybe it was political. Admiral Petulant certainly didn't seem to get on with Death Star Advocate #2 in the council scene in ANH.

Honestly, the whole question is stupid anyway. The Emperor obviously had a clue about the rebellion: he probably knew approximately their force composition. The ships at Endor were more than enough to fuck the rebels in the ass - why bring more? As has been said, the Emperor really didn't give a shit about the rebellion, just the Skywalkers.

[Elfdart]

There is NOTHING to reconcile except your own unsupported notions. The only thing wrong with the EU numbers is that they're probably way too CONSERVATIVE. There might be 25,000 ISDs, but Dark Empire states that there are over 12 million inhabited worlds, and the Imperial Sourcebook says that there are 1 million member worlds and 50 million colonies, territories, protectorates, etc. Using the lower Dark Empire number, that comes out to only about 2 ISDs for every thousand worlds in the Empire. That's not a lot at all. If we go by the ISB's numbers, then you only have about 5 ISDs for every 10,000 worlds.

How many ISDs are needed to keep order in 10,000 worlds? Not many when you factor in hyperdrive, other ships and the possibility that like any other empire, the GE probably uses local quislings to keep order on all but the most important or troublesome worlds.

The Rebellion pulled together as many of their ships as they could to attack the second Death Star. If they had cruisers to spare, they wouldn't have blockade runners and transports making up such a large part of their strike force at Endor, would they?

The Rebels needed to have ships all over the galaxy to quickly take advantage of the Emperor's demise. They didn't expect any resistence at Endor. Thre is no reason for them to bring more ships than they needed to do the job.

Have you considered a career as a proctologist? You really are pulling it out of your ass at this point

There is absolutely NO reason to stick with a position when an alternate explanation exists that is both completely valid AND doesn't contradict the EU.

If the overinflated numbers of Imperial and Rebel capital ships described in the EU are correct, both the Rebellion and the Empire are run by imbeciles with all the strategy and tactics of a game between the Browns and 49ers.

Bespin, Dagobah, Yavin, and Hoth aren't under Imperial control. Three of those don't even have any civilization, and Bespin only had one small floating city. There's no reason for there to have been ships there.

There's a very good reason for Imperial ships to be searching those planets: The Rebels.

The Empire is a military dictatorship based on fear and force. Every source describes it as having garrisons everywhere. It needs to maintain a presence on every world, many of which aren't particularly fond of it.

Any system -even a totalitarian one- has to have the support, consent or indifference of the people. As you've seen so far in Episodes 1 and 2, many if not most people in the galaxy want a strongman to come in and clean house.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

How many ISDs are needed to keep order in 10,000 worlds?

Ahem, one million worlds, at the least.