Why were there so few ships at the Battle of Endor

[Elfdart]

There's another reason why this doesn't make sense. If ISDs are so few and uber, assigned only to protect the most vital assets or to elite roaming forces, it would be EXTREMELY obvious if all of them gathered up together in one area. If the USA gathered together the majority of its supercarriers, everyone in the world would notice. This was supposed to work when the object was to lead the Rebels into a trap? It makes far more sense if those ISDs were just from the local sector fleet, which is what the ROTJ novelization says.

A strawman sprinkled with horseshit -oh joy!

I'm not talking all-or-nothing for the Empire. It's just a catch-22: If the Empire has 25,000 ISDs, they could skim a few here and a few there across the galaxy, double/triple/quadruple the number of ISDs at Endor -and still have 24,800-24,900 ISDs left for other duties. If, on the other hand, the Empire has only say, 1000 or fewer ISDs and most other ships are much smaller varieties, then maybe the 30+ ISDs at Endor (sector fleet of 24 + Vader's squadron from TESB) really were all Palpatine could spare and still defend key areas, AND not give away what he was up to.

For the Rebels, it's more cut and dried. The whole notion that they were holding back large ships to create mischief if the Endor attack succeeded is looney, because if the attack failed, those ships were wasted when they might have made a difference in the actual battle.

[Elfdart]

How many ISDs are needed to keep order in 10,000 worlds?

Ahem, one million worlds, at the least.

I was referring to Raynor's 5 ISDs to 10,000 worlds.

[Elfdart]

So in ANH, why didn't the Empire send a SINGLE FUCKING ISD to kill EVERY MOTHERFUCKER ON YAVIN in MINUTES before the rebels KNEW WHAT WAS HAPPENING? Why wait for the DS? Why wait for the power buildup, the dogfights on the surface? HMMMMMMMMMMM?

Using the DS was the POINT. Yavin was a target because the leaders were there: if the Rebels were smart their ships would be hidden all over the place until needed, not in the same place all the beardy generals live. The Emperor (and Tarkin, its likely) enjoyed the thought of using the DS to destroy the rebellion - they both use this phrase - and not the starfleet. Maybe it was political. Admiral Petulant certainly didn't seem to get on with Death Star Advocate #2 in the council scene in ANH.

Honestly, the whole question is stupid anyway. The Emperor obviously had a clue about the rebellion: he probably knew approximately their force composition. The ships at Endor were more than enough to fuck the rebels in the ass - why bring more? As has been said, the Emperor really didn't give a shit about the rebellion, just the Skywalkers.

Maybe the Rebels had a shield at Yavin like the one on Hoth -a shield rendered useless by the superlaser.

[Jim Raynor]

A strawman sprinkled with horseshit -oh joy!

I'm not talking all-or-nothing for the Empire. It's just a catch-22: If the Empire has 25,000 ISDs, they could skim a few here and a few there across the galaxy, double/triple/quadruple the number of ISDs at Endor -and still have 24,800-24,900 ISDs left for other duties. If, on the other hand, the Empire has only say, 1000 or fewer ISDs and most other ships are much smaller varieties, then maybe the 30+ ISDs at Endor (sector fleet of 24 + Vader's squadron from TESB) really were all Palpatine could spare and still defend key areas, AND not give away what he was up to.

You're fucking full of shit. In your previous post, you suggested that the 30 or so ISDs at Endor were the BULK of the Empire's finest ships. That means most of them, not skimming a few here and there. Stop lying to cover your ass.

For the Rebels, it's more cut and dried. The whole notion that they were holding back large ships to create mischief if the Endor attack succeeded is looney, because if the attack failed, those ships were wasted when they might have made a difference in the actual battle.

The Rebels did NOT expect any meaningful opposition. They expected to quickly rout any defense the Empire might have had at Endor, since their very plan called for their cruisers to form a perimeter around the Death Star. There was no reason for them to think that they might fail. How hard is this to understand?

[Star-Blighter]

The combined firepower of both the Deathstar surface guns and the Stardestroyer Turbolasers would have utterly shreded an unsupported strike-craft attack, not to mention the massive amount of TIE fighters. Those rebel capital ships were acting as cover, forcing the Imperials to engage them AS WELL as the fighters.

Unsupported fighters<fighters supported by heavier capships.

The DSII had more guns than the DSI, but I still doubt the density of turbolasers on its surface was very high. There's also the fact that a whole third of the station was incomplete and exposed to attack. The fighters could go in on that side, completely ignoring all the guns on other parts of the station. There weren't that many Star Destroyers there either, before the fleet came in to surprise the Rebels. I think it's far more likely that the capital ships were there to prevent escape.

No matter which side you attack on, until you get to practicaly point-black range (near the surface) you'd still be well within line of site of enough turbolasers to shred a decent sized strikeforce by shear volume of fire. Even assuming a single turbolaser per kilometer, the Deathstar is STILL so large that the number of TL's would be in the hundreds of thousands.

In fact let's test that:

A sphere with a diameter of 900 km would have a surface area of roughly
3,180,862 KILOMETERS if I'm not mistaken (I really could be). Put 2 and 2
together and you have a SHIT LOAD of Turbolasers.

Your also forgetting the TIE's.

[Jim Raynor]

How many ISDs are needed to keep order in 10,000 worlds?

Ahem, one million worlds, at the least.

I was referring to Raynor's 5 ISDs to 10,000 worlds.

What if a dozen of those worlds started revolting at the same time, and the crappy little ships you think made up the bulk of the navy weren't enough to take them down? This is a scifi universe where a single shield generator can withstand bombardment from the baddest squadron of ships in the Empire, and a single ground-to-space artillery piece is capable of completely disabling an ISD in a few shots (The Empire Strikes Back, CANON). You think 5 ISDs can cover all of them at the same time? While hunting down Rebel forces on the move? With 1 or 2 of them probably inactive and undergoing repairs or maintenance? Give up on your minimilist bullshit. It's not only completely unsupported, but contradicted by numerous canon and EU sources.

[Star-Blighter]

There's another reason why this doesn't make sense. If ISDs are so few and uber, assigned only to protect the most vital assets or to elite roaming forces, it would be EXTREMELY obvious if all of them gathered up together in one area. If the USA gathered together the majority of its supercarriers, everyone in the world would notice. This was supposed to work when the object was to lead the Rebels into a trap? It makes far more sense if those ISDs were just from the local sector fleet, which is what the ROTJ novelization says.

A strawman sprinkled with horseshit -oh joy!

I'm not talking all-or-nothing for the Empire. It's just a catch-22: If the Empire has 25,000 ISDs, they could skim a few here and a few there across the galaxy, double/triple/quadruple the number of ISDs at Endor -and still have 24,800-24,900 ISDs left for other duties. If, on the other hand, the Empire has only say, 1000 or fewer ISDs and most other ships are much smaller varieties, then maybe the 30+ ISDs at Endor (sector fleet of 24 + Vader's squadron from TESB) really were all Palpatine could spare and still defend key areas, AND not give away what he was up to.

For the Rebels, it's more cut and dried. The whole notion that they were holding back large ships to create mischief if the Endor attack succeeded is looney, because if the attack failed, those ships were wasted when they might have made a difference in the actual battle.

What part of TRAP don't you understand retard! It wouldn't be much of a TRAP if the rebels never attacked because there was a fleet 800 times larger then the one at Endor waiting for them. Believe me, hiding 30 ships is one thing, hiding 24 THOUSAND ships is a WHOLE DIFFERENT BALLGAME.

And must I remind you again that the standing orders were to CONTAIN the rebels so the Deathstar could pick off the capships with it's superlaser. the imperial ships at Endor could have shitcanned the rebel forces on their own if they didn't hold back.

[Stark]

Maybe the Rebels had a shield at Yavin like the one on Hoth -a shield rendered useless by the superlaser.

Thanks for addressing the points, Elfdart! See you next time!

I'm not sure why people think there should have been more ships at Endor. They already had enough to pwnz0r Akbars lameass fleet: any more would've been wasteful.

[Vympel]

Where in the ROTJ novelization does it say the Imperial fleet was the largest ever assembled? I've read it more than once, I don't recall that whatsoever. Now then:

- the ROTJ radio drama says its the Imperial sector fleet, not the novelization. There is *no* support for the absurd notion that this cluster of ISDs constituted the bulk of the Empire's ISDs
- the Rebel fleet is stated in the novelization to extend beyond the range of human vision, which meshes quite well with the fact that we see many more ships at the end of the battle than we observe at the start
- the novelization states that the Rebel fleet was the entirety of the Rebel fleet.

I mean shit, I contributed to the ROTJ canon database on the main page months ago. Please read it.

[Stofsk]

I mean shit, I contributed to the ROTJ canon database on the main page months ago. Please read it.

*hugs Vympel*

It's ok man. I read it.

[Civil War Man]

The Imperial fleet at Endor, as many people have pointed out, was that particular size because they wanted a big enough number to beat up Rebel fleets that arrive, while being small enough so as not to be easily detected by spies.

What's to say that the Rebel fleet was not the same? The Rebels wanted it to be a surprise attack. They needed the fleet to be big enough to be able to take down the Death Star, but they couldn't risk gathering every single Rebel ship because then the Imperial spynet would detect them and the whole Imperial fleet would be sitting at Endor waiting for the Rebels.

They were aware of Alliance fleet movements. Vader had received reports of "the Rebel fleet amassing near Sullust".

Seems to me that both the Imperial and Rebel fleets at Endor were organized to be only large enough to have the ability, in the eyes of the commanders, to get the jobs done. Anything larger may have blown their respective covers.

[Elfdart]

What part of TRAP don't you understand retard! It wouldn't be much of a TRAP if the rebels never attacked because there was a fleet 800 times larger then the one at Endor waiting for them. Believe me, hiding 30 ships is one thing, hiding 24 THOUSAND ships is a WHOLE DIFFERENT BALLGAME.

I didn't say "use 24,000 ships", peckerbreath. I was explaining why Palpatine might have settled on 30+ ISDs, speculating that maybe the 25,000 ISD figure is suspect and the ships he had at Endor were what he had available. He had no guarantee the Rebels would take the bait, did he? No go fuck yourself.

And must I remind you again that the standing orders were to CONTAIN the rebels so the Deathstar could pick off the capships with it's superlaser. the imperial ships at Endor could have shitcanned the rebel forces on their own if they didn't hold back.

I don't need to be reminded of anything by a trolling palmfucker like you.

[Stark]

Actually, since he can see the future and was feeding the Rebel intelligence services I'd say he knew damn well the Rebels would take the bait.[/b]

[Elfdart]

What if a dozen of those worlds started revolting at the same time, and the crappy little ships you think made up the bulk of the navy weren't enough to take them down? This is a scifi universe where a single shield generator can withstand bombardment from the baddest squadron of ships in the Empire, and a single ground-to-space artillery piece is capable of completely disabling an ISD in a few shots (The Empire Strikes Back, CANON).

What makes you think most if not every single planet carries planetary defense shields and giant ion cannons?

You think 5 ISDs can cover all of them at the same time? While hunting down Rebel forces on the move? With 1 or 2 of them probably inactive and undergoing repairs or maintenance? Give up on your minimilist bullshit. It's not only completely unsupported, but contradicted by numerous canon and EU sources.

Nah, a revolt in several star systems couldn't possibly be put down by "crappy little ships" like Victory-class or smaller.

[Star-Blighter]

What part of TRAP don't you understand retard! It wouldn't be much of a TRAP if the rebels never attacked because there was a fleet 800 times larger then the one at Endor waiting for them. Believe me, hiding 30 ships is one thing, hiding 24 THOUSAND ships is a WHOLE DIFFERENT BALLGAME.

I didn't say "use 24,000 ships", peckerbreath. I was explaining why Palpatine might have settled on 30+ ISDs, speculating that maybe the 25,000 ISD figure is suspect and the ships he had at Endor were what he had available. He had no guarantee the Rebels would take the bait, did he? No go fuck yourself.

I also provided a reasonable explanation for 30 ships at Endor. That they were enough to curbstomp the rebel fleet without sticking out LIKE A SORE FUCKING THUMB YOU STUPID MOTHERFUCKER!

Until you can refute the CANON 25 thousand ISD's per sector fleet than you are wasting my time and everyone else's.

And must I remind you again that the standing orders were to CONTAIN the rebels so the Deathstar could pick off the capships with it's superlaser. the imperial ships at Endor could have shitcanned the rebel forces on their own if they didn't hold back.

I don't need to be reminded of anything by a trolling palmfucker like you.

A worthless piece of shit like you makes me look like a saint.

So....

GO.

FUCK.

YOUR.

SELF.

[Jim Raynor]

What makes you think most if not every single planet carries planetary defense shields and giant ion cannons?

The shield in TESB was only a partial theater shield, and both it and the ion cannon were guarding a tiny Rebel base on a barren, frozen rock. There is no evidence that these were rare, uber defenses. A real planet, with a population in the billions or trillions, and cities over most if not all of its surface, not only has a lot more that needs protecting, but would need many such shield generators, turbolasers, and ion cannons to cover its entire surface. Even Alderaan, a nonmilitarized planet with a population of merely billions, had a full shield capable of withstanding the Death Star's superlaser for a fraction of a second.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Contrary to what Elfdart thinks, you need tens of millions of ships to manage a fifty-one million world empire. Direct him to Publius' essay, someone.

A more pressing concern is simply friendly fire. The 40 odd SDs and the Exec pinning the Rebels for smashing by the superlaser was judged invincible. Other ships would simply have required more C4I abilitiy and coordination than may have been available and provided no more a complete englobement of the Rebels. It would've produced a larger, more cumbersome force while draining military resources from elsewhere.

[Elfdart]

[snip]
- the novelization states that the Rebel fleet was the entirety of the Rebel fleet.

So much for the idea that the Rebels were holding back cruisers for Raynor's Raids, which existed only in his imagination.

"Bulk of" the ISDs? Maybe a bad choice of words on my part. But if Palps had 25,000 ISDs, he could have easily doubled or tripled his ambush force at Endor with no chance whatsoever that the Rebels would even inflict serious losses -and kept up the defense of the Empire. If the Rebels tried to claw their way into the Imperial line (as they did in ROTJ), they would have been crushed anyway by the larger fleet. The extra ISDs could have altered the outcome simply by launching fighters and hanging back. My conclusion: He didn't have so many ISDs and the 25,000 ISD figure is flawed.

Of course hiding 60-100 ships is just sooooo much harder than 30-40 ships.

Actually, since he can see the future and was feeding the Rebel intelligence services I'd say he knew damn well the Rebels would take the bait.

Palps' track record with prophesies isn't so good. He missed the part about getting bodyslammed by Vader. Or losing to a bunch of teddy bears. He could have fed them information, but there's no guarantee the Rebels would go for it.

[Elfdart]

Until you can refute the CANON 25 thousand ISD's per sector fleet than you are wasting my time and everyone else's.

Per sector fleet? You are one dumb twat. The Imperial Sourcebook from the RPG only claims 25,000 ISDs for the whole Empire. Nice attempt at trolling, asshole.

[Elfdart]

Contrary to what Elfdart thinks, you need tens of millions of ships to manage a fifty-one million world empire. Direct him to Publius' essay, someone.

Tens of millions of SDs? There's a difference between police, fire department and Coast Guard boats and Navy warships.

A more pressing concern is simply friendly fire. The 40 odd SDs and the Exec pinning the Rebels for smashing by the superlaser was judged invincible. Other ships would simply have required more C4I abilitiy and coordination than may have been available and provided no more a complete englobement of the Rebels. It would've produced a larger, more cumbersome force while draining military resources from elsewhere.

They could have simply held back, launched fighters and waited for any attempt to break out or engage in a free-for-all by the Rebels. As it turned out, the Rebels managed to inflict serious losses on the Empire at Endor. A larger ambush fleet could have crushed the Rebels anyway.

[Jim Raynor]

Tens of millions of SDs? There's a difference between police, fire department and Coast Guard boats and Navy warships.

This is an Empire with over 51 MILLION worlds to watch over, and is based on military power. There's nothing wrong with having 10s of millions of ISDs, when you consider the fact that the more heavily defended worlds could be guarded by dozens of them.

They could have simply held back, launched fighters and waited for any attempt to break out or engage in a free-for-all by the Rebels. As it turned out, the Rebels managed to inflict serious losses on the Empire at Endor. A larger ambush fleet could have crushed the Rebels anyway.

They didn't need a larger fleet. The fleet they had was just fine, and was pulled from local sector forces. The Rebels only won through a combination of luck, Palpatine's arrogance, and Vader's betrayal.

[Lone_Prodigy]

1 million "member" worlds, tens of millions of colony worlds, and billions of uninhabitated star systems to patrol.

[Vympel]

So much for the idea that the Rebels were holding back cruisers for Raynor's Raids, which existed only in his imagination.

"Bulk of" the ISDs? Maybe a bad choice of words on my part. But if Palps had 25,000 ISDs, he could have easily doubled or tripled his ambush force at Endor with no chance whatsoever that the Rebels would even inflict serious losses -and kept up the defense of the Empire. If the Rebels tried to claw their way into the Imperial line (as they did in ROTJ), they would have been crushed anyway by the larger fleet. The extra ISDs could have altered the outcome simply by launching fighters and hanging back. My conclusion: He didn't have so many ISDs and the 25,000 ISD figure is flawed.

Predicated on the false assumption that this was some sort of fleet ambush. It was not. Again:

"We're in attack position now sir."

"Hold here."

"We're not going to attack?"

"I have my orders from the Emperor himself, he has something special planned for them. We only need to keep them from escaping."

The plan was always for the fleet to stop the Rebels from escaping (ie. "we saw it, all craft prepare to retreat!") so that the Death Star could destroy the fleet in detail. Palpatine *wasn't interested* in summoning a sufficient fleet to wipe out the Rebel fleet (the fleet there was already sufficient), he wanted the Death Star to do it, and as we know the Death Star couldn't reliably target the Rebel ships when they were mixing it up with the Imperial fleet. Also, if you'd read the ROTJ novelization analysis in the main page canon database, you'd see that the only reason the Imperials lost was because of the death of the Emperor- a fact that is also referred to in Heir to the Empire by Admiral Thrawn.

Of course hiding 60-100 ships is just sooooo much harder than 30-40 ships.

In the case of pulling a convincing trap, it is. The more ships hiding at Endor, the greater the liklihood the Rebels simply wouldn't take the bait. They didn't even expect the sector fleet that was there to be there. To argue that the 25,000 figure is "flawed" on this basis is simply ignoring what the plan was, not to mention throwing out a perfectly good reason for why the Imperial fleet didn't take the initiative and attack- arrogance. This is a man who used himself as bait. You don't get to declare an oft-cited figure non-canon, as you are trying to do, based on your specific, and flawed, interpretation of the battle.

[Jim Raynor]

So much for the idea that the Rebels were holding back cruisers for Raynor's Raids, which existed only in his imagination.

Nice little jab, asshole. I was unaware that the novelization stated that the entire Rebel fleet was there. Now that it's been said, I fully accept it. You, on the other hand, carry on with your imaginary minimilist bullshit.

"Bulk of" the ISDs? Maybe a bad choice of words on my part. But if Palps had 25,000 ISDs, he could have easily doubled or tripled his ambush force at Endor with no chance whatsoever that the Rebels would even inflict serious losses -and kept up the defense of the Empire. If the Rebels tried to claw their way into the Imperial line (as they did in ROTJ), they would have been crushed anyway by the larger fleet. The extra ISDs could have altered the outcome simply by launching fighters and hanging back. My conclusion: He didn't have so many ISDs and the 25,000 ISD figure is flawed.

There has never been any evidence for the tiny fleets that you want, and think can be inferred from the movies. Your continual insistence that the Emperor could have called in more ships shows a complete lack of understanding as to what was going on in the movie.

Of course hiding 60-100 ships is just sooooo much harder than 30-40 ships.

You're basically doubling the size of the fleet at Endor, and pulling all these ships from other sectors. So yes, it would be a lot harder. Just the Executor + local sector fleet doesn't require any massive shifting of naval forces.

[Enforcer Talen]

http://www.daltonator.net/fanfics/essays/impfleet.txt

many, many ships.