NecronLord: 17.28km AT-AT range is false

[YT300000]

Its possible, although highly unlikely, that the measurement wasn't even in metres. Perhaps in furlongs or cables?

[Alan Bolte]

Look at the direction the bolts are traveling and the angles from which the scanner and the camera in the last shot see the generator. The group near the ATAT is running nearly perpendicular to the group seen in front of the generator.

[NecronLord]

Look at the direction the bolts are traveling and the angles from which the scanner and the camera in the last shot see the generator. The group near the ATAT is running nearly perpendicular to the group seen in front of the generator.

The group of three? They visibly change direction as they run. I suppose I could get you more screenshots when I get home tomorrow, but until then, I ask that you take my word for it.

[SPOOFE]

Dude, look at Image 1. There are two dozen Rebels running away. You want us to believe that your magical eyes can pick out three distinct ones from that blob of unidentifiable people?

Bull and shit, chuckles. Bull and shit.

[Cal Wright]

I do not see the point. The size of the power generator seems to be unknown, so I can't see what good it would do.

Well, yall are trying to measure a distance between two points. You're using a group of figures as the midpoint. So, scaling them against the AT AT and get the distance from them to the walker gets you part of the distance. Then scaling them to the generator gets the rest. Alas, you are right on one account. I searched what few resources I have, and never found a reference to the size of the generator.

[Moonshadow]

a little off topic but where did we get Blizzard One as a name for the AT-AT?

[Vympel]

a little off topic but where did we get Blizzard One as a name for the AT-AT?

It's an EU thing. The ITW OT refers to Blizzard 1 through Blizzard 8.

[NecronLord]

Dude, look at Image 1. There are two dozen Rebels running away. You want us to believe that your magical eyes can pick out three distinct ones from that blob of unidentifiable people?

Unfortunately, you once more spectacularly fail to get the point. Regardless of the similarities between the groups of rebels, the alternate assumption is that there are two seperate groups of rebels, kilometers apart, fleeing the trenches, under the line of fire from Blizzard One. This additionally means that the rebel defences at Hoth were several kilometers thick. Did they look it to you?

I note that Vympel has still not bothered to answer on the question of whether there is a ten mile marker. Even if there isn't, use of a ruler and ITW would be able to prove wheter Blizzard One was within ten miles of the Generator or not when it fired. Because, if it's inside a ten mile radius of the target, which, given his previous statements (it's outside the five mile marker) sounds likely, then it is within sixteen kilometers, and the 17.28 figure can indeed be dismissed as the Imperials using some other form of measurement.

[Vympel]

Unfortunately, you once more spectacularly fail to get the point. Regardless of the similarities between the groups of rebels, the alternate assumption is that there are two seperate groups of rebels, kilometers apart, fleeing the trenches, under the line of fire from Blizzard One. This additionally means that the rebel defences at Hoth were several kilometers thick. Did they look it to you?

They were. See OT: ITW. There are multiple defence lines marked:

Organized by distance from base (furthest first):

1. "Rebel sentry stations and forward trenches"

2. "Beta Outpost Artillery trenches"

3. "P-Tower battery (similar batteries distributed throughout ice plain)"

4. "Blizzards 6, 9 and 8 fire on retreating remnants of hangar defence trenches"

These markings are km apart.

I note that Vympel has still not bothered to answer on the question of whether there is a ten mile marker. Even if there isn't, use of a ruler and ITW would be able to prove wheter Blizzard One was within ten miles of the Generator or not when it fired.

If there was one, I would've said so man- would've made things easier

Because, if it's inside a ten mile radius of the target, which, given his previous statements (it's outside the five mile marker) sounds likely, then it is within sixteen kilometers, and the 17.28 figure can indeed be dismissed as the Imperials using some other form of measurement.

Ah shit, I got the measurement wrong. The entire line is 10km long, the 5 mile marker is of course the appropriate place along that 10km line. The point at which Veers fired is therefore under 5km by my revised reckoning- probably 4.5km, not 3. What possible translation "1 7 decimal two eight" could have to distance to conform to that is unknown.

[NecronLord]

They were. See OT: ITW. There are multiple defence lines marked:

Organized by distance from base (furthest first):

1. "Rebel sentry stations and forward trenches"

2. "Beta Outpost Artillery trenches"

3. "P-Tower battery (similar batteries distributed throughout ice plain)"

4. "Blizzards 6, 9 and 8 fire on retreating remnants of hangar defence trenches"

These markings are km apart.

Curious. I always considered it a single trench with a support trench and then the heavy weapons, around the base and the generator. Damn. I'm wrong. I hate being wrong.

Ah shit, I got the measurement wrong. The entire line is 10km long, the 5 mile marker is of course the appropriate place along that 10km line. The point at which Veers fired is therefore under 5km by my revised reckoning- probably 4.5km, not 3. What possible translation "1 7 decimal two eight" could have to distance to conform to that is unknown.

Ah-hah! *Points and gloats*

[Vympel]

Curse you! *shakes fist*

[NecronLord]

"♫ ♪ I was right and you were wrong!
I'm going to sing the I was right song! ♪ ♫"

[vakundok]

Emm, isn't it possible that that "One-seven, decimal two- eight." answer actually gave both direction and distance? (I know that Veers asked specifically about the distance, but still ...)

Moonshadow: The Galactic Battlegrounds called them Blizzards. Possibly, the name is even older.

[NecronLord]

4.5 kilometer = 17.2413793 estadio [Portugal] The Imperial Ground forces are Portugese.

[SPOOFE]

Regardless of the similarities between the groups of rebels, the alternate assumption is that there are two seperate groups of rebels, kilometers apart, fleeing the trenches, under the line of fire from Blizzard One. This additionally means that the rebel defences at Hoth were several kilometers thick. Did they look it to you?

So your claim is that it's improbable that the Rebels had a couple dozen forward troops staggered several kilometers apart? Sounds perfectly reasonable within the assumption of a long-distance strike... if the Rebels knew that AT-AT's could fire from 17 kilometers away, of COURSE they'd want to have a thick line of defense.

It's not like the individual soldiers would do anything to an AT-AT anyway, which would mean they'd be support for the BIG guns... but what good is the support if they're right nex to said big guns, unable to do anything?

More quibbles: How long, at that point, had the retreat order been in effect? They wouldn't all just break lines and run... they'd stagger their departure in order to help provide covering fire.

Another possibility: During the battle, some Rebels had moved forward to help with downed speeder pilots.

The point is that your "evidence" is far too flimsy to justify the conclusion you've made.

[NecronLord]

I don't need to. The ITW evidence is much better, thus, I shall use that.

The only number in a canon source for the range that has an attached unit is 4.5 kilometers. The imperials were using some other unit.

There. Suck it up.

[nightmare]

The only number in a canon source for the range that has an attached unit is 4.5 kilometers. The imperials were using some other unit.

There is actually a second source for AT-AT fire range that no one takes seriously: WEG, in which it is 3 km.

Sidequestion: is this ITW book also the one with ridiculously short (and canonically disproven) ranges for turbolasers?

I don't recall any other unit that metric ever being used as galatic standard in any material save for BTUs and Space Units, neither of which are applicable.

You also sidestepped my comment on the bolt velocity.Sure, bolt speeds in general varies, even from the same weapons. Velocity in the scene in question is however applicable.. except for that we had a cut, so it can't be right, only establish a minimum.

In short, I don't see that you have enough evidence to disprove the dialogue. You either use movie only - in which you end up 17.28 km because you can't disprove it with the screenshots alone, or you use additional material and still have to make it jive with that number somehow, but this doesn't involve inventing a unit for it out of nowhere. I don't think there is any to dig up, either.

[The Original Nex]

Sidequestion: is this ITW book also the one with ridiculously short (and canonically disproven) ranges for turbolasers?

No, that's the "New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels."

[NecronLord]

I don't recall any other unit that metric ever being used as galatic standard in any material save for BTUs and Space Units, neither of which are applicable.

And? Maybe Cardian units are the accepted norm in the Imperial Ground Forces.

You also sidestepped my comment on the bolt velocity.Sure, bolt speeds in general varies, even from the same weapons. Velocity in the scene in question is however applicable.. except for that we had a cut, so it can't be right, only establish a minimum.

I did indeed adress it. Not perfectly, true, but I gate rough estimates of the time taken from B1's guns to impact/passing over the camera.

In short, I don't see that you have enough evidence to disprove the dialogue. You either use movie only - in which you end up 17.28 km because you can't disprove it with the screenshots alone, or you use additional material and still have to make it jive with that number somehow, but this doesn't involve inventing a unit for it out of nowhere. I don't think there is any to dig up, either.

Tell you what. Go watch the film, and when you find them saying kilometer at the end of that line, you come back. 'Kay?

It's implied that they are using Kilometers, but it is not certain, not by a long way. The Empire does indeed have made up units. Point five past lightspeed anyone?

On your comments about ITW, I doubt it, ITW is at the same level as the ICS. Hence why I called it canon. It is G-level. Any other material is likely C-level. You're probably thinking of some WEG or EGTVV material.

[nightmare]

And? Maybe Cardian units are the accepted norm in the Imperial Ground Forces.

Maybe, but unless you actually have a statement of that..

I did indeed adress it. Not perfectly, true, but I gate rough estimates of the time taken from B1's guns to impact/passing over the camera.

Fair enough, but I mean we should measure what distance we can get out of it. It doesn't have any relevance to your theory, I'm fairly certain the result will be even lower since it's a minimum.

Tell you what. Go watch the film, and when you find them saying kilometer at the end of that line, you come back. 'Kay?

It's implied that they are using Kilometers, but it is not certain, not by a long way. The Empire does indeed have made up units. Point five past lightspeed anyone?

That's not relevant for the Empire unless you use RPG materials.. and it's an irrelevant unit for range. For ranges, we have never heard or read anything but metric AFAIK, save the WEG space units.

What you have is a) an inconclusive theory based on screenshots b) secondary sources which doesn't match the movie unless you add an unknown and unproven variable.

That's not enough in my opinion. If you can find any unit for range on the ground besides metric, I think your case is good enough.

[NecronLord]

Maybe, but unless you actually have a statement of that..

I don't need it. The G-level canon says ~4.5 kilometers. The difinitive canon gives a meaningless number. There is no contradiction there. Do you understand?

[nightmare]

Maybe, but unless you actually have a statement of that..

I don't need it. The G-level canon says ~4.5 kilometers. The difinitive canon gives a meaningless number. There is no contradiction there. Do you understand?

I certainly see what you mean, but that's where I disagree with you. You have to assume an unknown unit to make it fit. I'm generally for a completist stance.. but not when it requires introducing new variables.

[NecronLord]

A completist stance is one including the ITW evidence. A dialogue-purist stance would be one that suggests that the units in question are Kilometers.

[nightmare]

Strictly speaking, you're right. However, in the same notion, an ISD has 60 TLs and 60 ICs. That's also uncontradicted official data.. we just happen to know it's wrong.

[NecronLord]

Strictly speaking, you're right. However, in the same notion, an ISD has 60 TLs and 60 ICs. That's also uncontradicted official data.. we just happen to know it's wrong.

Err, as I understand it the generally accepted armament of an ISD type 2 is as follows:

• 6 x Heavy Turbolaser Cannon Turrets, four barrels each
• 2 x Heavy Ion Cannon Turrets, four barrels each
• 4 x 'Quad Trench' Medium Turbolaser Cannons
• 2 x Medium Turbolaser Cannons at the Docking Bay
• 3-4 x Medium Turbolaser Cannons before the dorsal pile
• 60 x Ventral Light Turbolaser cannons
• 60 x Dorsal Light Turbolaser cannons
• 60 x Ventral Light Ion cannons
• 60 x Dorsal Light Ion cannons