Why were there so few ships at the Battle of Endor

[Jim Raynor]

Given SoTE denies this and nothing in canon refutes, one would have to find proof in equal sources that says other wise.

Not only does canon not refute what SoTE says, but it also supports it. The DSII was built in complete secrecy, which would have been impossible if it required a significant amount of the Empire's resources.

[Vympel]

Er...excuse me, but how is it determined this particular ISD is "upside down" relative to the others? Reviewing my ROTJ DVD, all the Imperial ships are "upright" relative to the others. Why would thus one feel the need to turn on this axis (and how do you prove this one actually has)?

SWTC has a section on it. I think it's from the Illustrated Edition of the novelization.

[Elfdart]

Predicated on the false assumption that this was some sort of fleet ambush. It was not. Again:

"We're in attack position now sir."

"Hold here."

"We're not going to attack?"

"I have my orders from the Emperor himself, he has something special planned for them. We only need to keep them from escaping."

The plan was always for the fleet to stop the Rebels from escaping (ie. "we saw it, all craft prepare to retreat!") so that the Death Star could destroy the fleet in detail. Palpatine *wasn't interested* in summoning a sufficient fleet to wipe out the Rebel fleet (the fleet there was already sufficient), he wanted the Death Star to do it, and as we know the Death Star couldn't reliably target the Rebel ships when they were mixing it up with the Imperial fleet. Also, if you'd read the ROTJ novelization analysis in the main page canon database, you'd see that the only reason the Imperials lost was because of the death of the Emperor- a fact that is also referred to in Heir to the Empire by Admiral Thrawn.

In order to keep the Rebels from escaping, wouldn't the Imperial fleet need to be large enough and powerful enough to fight them off when they tried to fight their way out? Or were they expecting the Rebels to just sit there and get picked off one at a time?

Of course hiding 60-100 ships is just sooooo much harder than 30-40 ships.

In the case of pulling a convincing trap, it is. The more ships hiding at Endor, the greater the liklihood the Rebels simply wouldn't take the bait.

How so?

They didn't even expect the sector fleet that was there to be there. To argue that the 25,000 figure is "flawed" on this basis is simply ignoring what the plan was, not to mention throwing out a perfectly good reason for why the Imperial fleet didn't take the initiative and attack- arrogance. This is a man who used himself as bait. You don't get to declare an oft-cited figure non-canon, as you are trying to do, based on your specific, and flawed, interpretation of the battle.

If the 25,000 figure (which as far as I can tell comes from the same WEG books that claim the Executor is 8000 metres long) is right then Palps was Dr. Evil-level cocky, since he could have doubled the number of ISDs present without much trouble. 30+ ISDs vs. 30+ Rebel ships (most of which were smaller and weaker) was an advantage for the Empire, but not overwhelming. Even before the Death Star was destroyed, the Rebels broke the center of the Imperial line by taking down the Executor and the ISD right next to it.

[Elfdart]

There was more than that I think - I was laways left with the impression from the ROTJK novel that the Rebels had at least hundreds of warships at Endor, despite the paltry few dozen the movie suggests.

Don't forget that the Imperials also encircled the Rebels with (at least?) two separate groups of ships to trap them against Endor, according to the novelization.

- the novelization states that the Rebel fleet was the entirety of the Rebel fleet.

Thats what I hated about the movie. If we went by what the movie says, the Rebels had a few dozen or a few hundred warships in their entire fleet.

Think about that for a minute. If the Rebels had all these ships available, then losing at Endor wouldn't have been such a setback (aside from the Death Star, of course). If the Rebels had hundreds and thousands of fighters, then losing Yavin or Hoth would have been like losing a platoon at Stalingrad. If the Rebels have all this stuff (a) it takes away from the importance of Yavin and Hoth and (b) it makes the Rebels in ROTJ look like a bunch of morons for bringing transports and blockade runners to Endor while saving bigger and better ships for... what exactly?

So I stick to what the movie shows: a few dozen ISDs vs a few dozen assorted Rebel ships. If either side had more ships available and didn't bring them, it's an indictment of their leadership. Anything else is speculation.

I sorta figure now that the battle for Endor might have been waged across the entire system (I suppose they would need to patrol and scout the entire system to provide secrecy for the Death Star's constrruction.)

Also, this sort of makes the "Endor Holocaust" more believable, ,as well as the idea that the Rebels could down the Executor (Could you really believe that a few dozen warships, most of which are smaller than a Mon Cal cruiser, could take it down themselves if the Executor is really as powerful as implication suggests?)

Flukes happen.

[Rogue 9]

Elfdart, what part of the Rebels' plan being predicated on "With their fleet spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us..." escapes you? They obviously think that the Imperial fleet is spread hither and yon trying to track them down. The fact that they think this means that they made some effort to ascertain what the fleet was doing. If said reports came back saying "Yeah, the whole damned thing is headed for Endor," do you really think that the attack would have gone forward? Bringing more ships would have been stupid for the Empire, since the more ships receive orders to go to Endor, the greater the odds are that some Rebel operative or another will get ahold of a redeployment order with "Endor" in the destination and call the whole thing off.

[Batman]

In the case of pulling a convincing trap, it is. The more ships hiding at Endor, the greater the liklihood the Rebels simply wouldn't take the bait.

How so?

This is a trick question, right? The higher the number of ships present at Endor, the higher the propability the Rebels would know those ships were present.
The higher the number of ships present (suspected or otherwise), the lower the propability of the Rebels thinking they could pull it off.

If the 25,000 figure (which as far as I can tell comes from the same WEG books that claim the Executor is 8000 metres long)

It's confirmed by several novel EU quotes, unfortunately. That number is hilariously low.

is right then Palps was Dr. Evil-level cocky,
since he could have doubled the number of ISDs present without much trouble.

Whatever for?

30+ ISDs vs. 30+ Rebel ships (most of which were smaller and weaker) was an advantage for the Empire, but not overwhelming.

Which was easily compensated for by the Death Star. Infinity to none firepower advantage. Nobody ever denied Palpatine was an arrogant bastard.

Even before the Death Star was destroyed, the Rebels broke the center of the Imperial line by taking down the Executor and the ISD right next to it.

Evidenced by what, please? Completly ignoring that Executor's destruction was a complete and utter fluke, and the death of the command ship is going to throw anyfleet into disarray for some time.
The imperial line was under orders to hold back you moron.

[Vympel]

In order to keep the Rebels from escaping, wouldn't the Imperial fleet need to be large enough and powerful enough to fight them off when they tried to fight their way out? Or were they expecting the Rebels to just sit there and get picked off one at a time?

They didn't expect the Rebels to get as close as they could to engage them at point blank range- the novelization provides good context for this decision in the discussion between Lando and Ackbar. They (or rather, the Emperor, since it was obviously Imperial Starfleet extinct to lay the smackdown- hence the Captain of the Executor's exclaimed question as to why they weren't attacking) probably expected the Rebel fleet to stand off from where they were rather than risk mixing it up.

How so?

Because the extra ships might be discovered, either by recon or by the absence of ships from other sector fleets.

If the 25,000 figure (which as far as I can tell comes from the same WEG books that claim the Executor is 8000 metres long)

Irrelevant. If it stands uncontradicted, it doesn't matter what obvious mistakes it makes on totally unrelated matters.. Irrespective, the 25,000 figure is cited in other literature.

is right then Palps was Dr. Evil-level cocky, since he could have doubled the number of ISDs present without much trouble.

Of course he was. This is a man who used himself as bait in a trap. He was supremely arrogant. "Your overconfidence is your weakness".

30+ ISDs vs. 30+ Rebel ships (most of which were smaller and weaker) was an advantage for the Empire, but not overwhelming. Even before the Death Star was destroyed, the Rebels broke the center of the Imperial line by taking down the Executor and the ISD right next to it.

The death of the Emperor happened before the Death Star II was destroyed- two seperate issues. See the novelization analysis. It'd be fair to say that if the Emperor hadn't been there at all nothing would've changed whatsoever, and the Imperial fleet would've likely mostly destroyed or driven off the Rebels irrespective of what happened to the Death Star II.

[Praxis]

Of course hiding 60-100 ships is just sooooo much harder than 30-40 ships.

In the case of pulling a convincing trap, it is. The more ships hiding at Endor, the greater the liklihood the Rebels simply wouldn't take the bait.

How so?

The Rebels might notice if you're pulling ships from all over the place, wouldn't they? Therefore, you want the smallest force you can muster and still be guaranteed to beat them (operational Death Star, anyone?), so they don't realize you're moving ships around.

[VT-16]

The ROTJ novelization is quite clear- with that in mind, the forces that gathered at Sullust must've included those groups.

This is the same novelization that claimed Own Lars being Obi-Wan´s brother. I´m not buying everything it says as "concrete proof".

ISD is top of the line.

No, it is not. There are plenty of bigger ship-classes than the ISD. The two sub-classes are only the most numerous of all the different shipdesigns.

I recall no canon instances the Empire having bigger and better ships than the ISD in great numbers. ISD is the workhorse, it's a platform for force projection.

ISD is the workhorse, yes, but I would think frigates and corvettes would be in even greater numbers, since they´re smaller and easier to make.

All frigates, cruisers, corvettes and actual destroyers are smaller than the ISD.

Ordinary cruisers, yes. Star Cruisers/Battlecruisers/Battleships, no.

[Elfdart]

How so?

This is a trick question, right?

For you, maybe.

The higher the number of ships present at Endor, the higher the propability the Rebels would know those ships were present.

The Empire already knows about Han's team. The Rebel fleet is going to attack. The die is cast and the Empire has quite a lot of time to set a bigger trap for them. They could have simply brought in another fleet from a nearby sector and by the time the Rebel spies (assuming they were in a position to know) found out, it would still be too late.

A trap only works if it can contain or kill the intended victim. The Imperial fleet at Endor obviously wasn't good enough for the job.

The higher the number of ships present (suspected or otherwise), the lower the propability of the Rebels thinking they could pull it off.

see above

is right then Palps was Dr. Evil-level cocky,
since he could have doubled the number of ISDs present without much trouble.

Whatever for?

To destroy the Rebels.

30+ ISDs vs. 30+ Rebel ships (most of which were smaller and weaker) was an advantage for the Empire, but not overwhelming.

Which was easily compensated for by the Death Star. Infinity to none firepower advantage. Nobody ever denied Palpatine was an arrogant bastard.

Death Star is on only one side.

Even before the Death Star was destroyed, the Rebels broke the center of the Imperial line by taking down the Executor and the ISD right next to it.

Evidenced by what, please? Completly ignoring that Executor's destruction was a complete and utter fluke, and the death of the command ship is going to throw anyfleet into disarray for some time.

If you ever get around to pulling your head out of your ass long enough to actually watch the movie, you'll notice that the Imperial fleet is spread out in a kind of zigzag formation with the Executor in the middle. They stick to this formation even when the Rebels close on them. The SSD and the ISD next to it (the center of the Empire's line) both get destroyed within about 60 seconds of each other, leaving a gaping hole in the Imperial line. This is all apart from anything going on on Endor. The Rebels smashed through. If the shield hadn't been knocked down and the Rebels on Endor massacred and the Rebel fleet took heavier losses, a good part of the fleet would STILL have been able to escape. The Empire tried to trap a wild animal in a cage and the cage wasn't stong enough on one side. As it was, by then the Rebels were winning so they didn't have to make a run for it.

The imperial line was under orders to hold back you moron.

They were not under orders to stand around with their thumbs up their asses (an area of your expertise, no doubt) should the Rebels close to attack them, numbnuts. If you watch the movie, you'll see an ISD trading broadsides with a frigate at point blank range. Now fuck off, you're being stupid.

[Elfdart]

They didn't expect the Rebels to get as close as they could to engage them at point blank range- the novelization provides good context for this decision in the discussion between Lando and Ackbar. They (or rather, the Emperor, since it was obviously Imperial Starfleet extinct to lay the smackdown- hence the Captain of the Executor's exclaimed question as to why they weren't attacking) probably expected the Rebel fleet to stand off from where they were rather than risk mixing it up.

The point of the Imperial fleet being there was to prevent the Rebels from escaping. As the battle turned out, the Rebels could have escaped if they had to thanks to the big hole they blasted in the Imperial line. They were expected to hem in the Rebels and let the Death Star pick off as many Rebel ships as possible. This would only work if their fleet was strong enough to box them in, and it wasn't.

30+ ISDs vs. 30+ Rebel ships (most of which were smaller and weaker) was an advantage for the Empire, but not overwhelming. Even before the Death Star was destroyed, the Rebels broke the center of the Imperial line by taking down the Executor and the ISD right next to it.

The death of the Emperor happened before the Death Star II was destroyed- two seperate issues. See the novelization analysis. It'd be fair to say that if the Emperor hadn't been there at all nothing would've changed whatsoever, and the Imperial fleet would've likely mostly destroyed or driven off the Rebels irrespective of what happened to the Death Star II.

It depends on whether the Emperor would have wanted the Rebels taken out in the same manner without him being there. The Empire might have done better by simply attacking the Rebels instead of waiting for the Death Star to do it. Or they might have still been given a case of red ass from Ackbar and Lando.

[Vympel]

The Empire already knows about Han's team. The Rebel fleet is going to attack.

No way of knowing that. The Rebel fleet could've easily left the strike team for dead rather than be destroyed in detail by an ambushing larger fleet.

The die is cast and the Empire has quite a lot of time to set a bigger trap for them. They could have simply brought in another fleet from a nearby sector and by the time the Rebel spies (assuming they were in a position to know) found out, it would still be too late.

Which is nothing but the Emperor's arrogance. Nothing more.

A trap only works if it can contain or kill the intended victim. The Imperial fleet at Endor obviously wasn't good enough for the job.

Nothing but a fluke, which is an entirely seperate issue from how many ships the Empire has. Palpatine was overconfident.

To destroy the Rebels.

Which was not the fleet's job.

If you ever get around to pulling your head out of your ass long enough to actually watch the movie, you'll notice that the Imperial fleet is spread out in a kind of zigzag formation with the Executor in the middle. They stick to this formation even when the Rebels close on them. The SSD and the ISD next to it (the center of the Empire's line) both get destroyed within about 60 seconds of each other, leaving a gaping hole in the Imperial line. This is all apart from anything going on on Endor. The Rebels smashed through. If the shield hadn't been knocked down and the Rebels on Endor massacred and the Rebel fleet took heavier losses, a good part of the fleet would STILL have been able to escape.

Which was due to the Emperor's foolish orders- and the fact that he was killed, which resulted in a massive drop in Imperial effectiveness. Nothing to do with the amount of ships the Empire does or does not have.

The Empire tried to trap a wild animal in a cage and the cage wasn't stong enough on one side. As it was, by then the Rebels were winning so they didn't have to make a run for it.

Which proves nothing about how many ships the Empire does or does not have, which is the issue.

They were not under orders to stand around with their thumbs up their asses (an area of your expertise, no doubt) should the Rebels close to attack them, numbnuts. If you watch the movie, you'll see an ISD trading broadsides with a frigate at point blank range. Now fuck off, you're being stupid.

Strawman. He didn't say they didn't fire on the Rebels at all. The Imperial fleet was not under orders to attack and simply launched fighters at the outset from long range rather than attacking as was their instinct- that formation was "attack position". They were *forced* to battle on Rebel terms when they saw that the Rebels weren't content to sit around- ie. they gave up the initiative and missed a chance to slaughter the Rebel fleet on their own terms. From longer range, they could've employed their heavier weapons far more effectiveley and in an organized manner, and actually made their fighters effective. The Rebel action was far more effective because they acted in concert with their fighters.

[Batman]

higher the number of ships present at Endor, the higher the propability the Rebels would know those ships were present.

The Empire already knows about Han's team.

says who?

The Rebel fleet is going to attack. The die is cast and the Empire has quite a lot of time to set a bigger trap for them.

As evidenced by what, and who says they wouldn't notice?

They could have simply brought in another fleet from a nearby sector and by the time the Rebel spies (assuming they were in a position to know) found out, it would still be too late.

Even if your baseless assumption that this would go unnoticed were true, what in Valen's name would that have gained the Emperor?

A trap only works if it can contain or kill the intended victim. The Imperial fleet at Endor obviously wasn't good enough for the job.

Patently false as that trap depended on the DS to be around to slaughter the Rebel fleet. Guess what-it wasn't.
Garbage again as it depended on the Imp Fleet to benefit from Palpy's mental coordination. Which sort of ceased when he died.

The higher the number of ships present (suspected or otherwise), the lower the propability of the Rebels thinking they could pull it off.

see above

Which doesn't make sense.

is right then Palps was Dr. Evil-level cocky,
since he could have doubled the number of ISDs present without much trouble.

Whatever for?

To destroy the Rebels.

Which he didn't give a flying fuck about, assuming he could have pulled it of in the first place (which is highly dubitable). The entire point of the setup was to lure Luke Skywalker there.

30+ ISDs vs. 30+ Rebel ships (most of which were smaller and weaker) was an advantage for the Empire, but not overwhelming.

Which was easily compensated for by the Death Star. Infinity to none firepower advantage. Nobody ever denied Palpatine was an arrogant bastard.

Death Star is on only one side.

Don't tell me you consider this a rebuttal.All the Imp fleet had to do was keep the Rebels within firing arc of the DS superlaser. The DS was canonically able to turn, the superlaser was canonically able to fire off-axis...
That engagment was never intended by Palpatine to be a battle. It was to be a political statement. Namely, 'you oppose me, you die'. Except it didn't turn out that way.

[RebelRoss0587]

The Battle of Endor seems like it is about to be dwarfed by what we are going to see in the opening space battle of Episode III, and I'm not sure if that is what George wants. I've always thought that when the Super Edition or whatever comes out in 2007, that will be modified a bit. Especially the way that the tie fighters just appear in the distance at the beginning of the fight. It sure wouldn't surprise me if George added a few more capital ships for both sides for the battle, but of course we'll all see in 2007.

[Rommie2006]

This discussions seems to be stagnating at some's people inability to accept several facts.
So far we can concluded the following

1)There were only so few ships at Endor because the Emperor intentionally made it so. The primary reason was to lure the entire Rebel fleet to commit into an engagement against the DS II. Other factors that influenced him was his overconfidence, cockiness, etc.

2)No additional ships were deployed as it would have turned the rebels away. The case that they had not sufficient ships for deployment to Endor is NOT true.

3)And whether you like it or not, the imperials had AT least 25k ISDs, and countless more ships of other classifications. This is a lower limit estimate of their fleet, and in reality, the figure could be much higher. The fact that some pple have a problem in accepting this figure is beyond by comprehension.

[Mange]

This discussions seems to be stagnating at some's people inability to accept several facts.
So far we can concluded the following

1)There were only so few ships at Endor because the Emperor intentionally made it so. The primary reason was to lure the entire Rebel fleet to commit into an engagement against the DS II. Other factors that influenced him was his overconfidence, cockiness, etc.

2)No additional ships were deployed as it would have turned the rebels away. The case that they had not sufficient ships for deployment to Endor is NOT true.

3)And whether you like it or not, the imperials had AT least 25k ISDs, and countless more ships of other classifications. This is a lower limit estimate of their fleet, and in reality, the figure could be much higher. The fact that some pple have a problem in accepting this figure is beyond by comprehension.

I totally agree. I tried to show yesterday that there's got to be quite a lot of Executor-class Star Dreadnoughts in the Imperial fleet as Solo didn't connect the sight of the Executor with Darth Vader the way he would've done if the Executor was unique or if there was any reason to believe it would be his ship, i.e. a small number of Executor-class ships. In response to Luke he said "There's a lot of command ships". This alone indicates that it can't be the bulk of the Imperial star fleet at Endor.

[Gustav32Vasa]

3)And whether you like it or not, the imperials had AT least 25k ISDs, and countless more ships of other classifications. This is a lower limit estimate of their fleet, and in reality, the figure could be much higher. The fact that some pple have a problem in accepting this figure is beyond by comprehension.

That 25k is canon. Made by someone who would knnow these things.

[Fire Fly]

I seem to recall an Interdictor cruiser was at Endor but not in the actual battle itself. I think one of the novels stated that or something...I'll have to get back to that.

[Connor MacLeod]

higher the number of ships present at Endor, the higher the propability the Rebels would know those ships were present.

The Empire already knows about Han's team.

says who?

Vader reported that fact to the Emperor in ROTJ, IIRC - also telling him that Luke was with the strike team. (The Emperor also indicated he was already aware of the Strike team, IIRC.)

[Connor MacLeod]

3)And whether you like it or not, the imperials had AT least 25k ISDs, and countless more ships of other classifications. This is a lower limit estimate of their fleet, and in reality, the figure could be much higher. The fact that some pple have a problem in accepting this figure is beyond by comprehension.

That 25k is canon. Made by someone who would knnow these things.

The 25,000 ship figure is not canonical.

[Batman]

The 25,000 ship figure is not canonical.

Under the new canon rules actually it is (thanks for the correction on Han's team, btw.) The 25,000 Star Destroyer figure is mentioned in the novels and therefore is whatever level canon they are. C level, IIRC.

[Gustav32Vasa]

3)And whether you like it or not, the imperials had AT least 25k ISDs, and countless more ships of other classifications. This is a lower limit estimate of their fleet, and in reality, the figure could be much higher. The fact that some pple have a problem in accepting this figure is beyond by comprehension.

That 25k is canon. Made by someone who would knnow these things.

The 25,000 ship figure is not canonical.

Its not?

I thought the books were canon?

A thousand systems left, out of an Empire that had once spanned a million. Two hundred Star Destroyers remaining from a fleet that had once included over twenty-five thousand of them

[The Original Nex]

In order to keep the Rebels from escaping, wouldn't the Imperial fleet need to be large enough and powerful enough to fight them off when they tried to fight their way out? Or were they expecting the Rebels to just sit there and get picked off one at a time?

The number of Imperial ships WAS sufficient to outfight the Rebels.

"At that close range we won't last long against those Star Destroyers!"

According to the Rebel Fleet Commander, Admiral Ackbar, the Imperial fleet at Endor was sufficient to destroy the Rebel Fleet.

How so?

The more ships the Empire pulls away from their normal commands, the more likely it is for the Rebels to discover their absense and put two and two together. This isn't rocket science dumbass.

If the 25,000 figure (which as far as I can tell comes from the same WEG books that claim the Executor is 8000 metres long) is right then

Wrong. There's nothing in the filmic canon to refute the 25,000 ISD number (which is remarkably low as it is), there is a SHITLOAD of filmic evidence against the Executor being 8km long. Nice try.

Palps was Dr. Evil-level cocky, since he could have doubled the number of ISDs present without much trouble.

Why bother? The Empire already had the advantage.

30+ ISDs vs. 30+ Rebel ships (most of which were smaller and weaker) was an advantage for the Empire, but not overwhelming.

There was actually alot more than 30 Rebel ships judging by the novelization, and they were still outclassed by the comparatively small Imperial fleet (anywhere from 30 to 60 ISDs, Thirty are visible, but if that was only a part of the pincher, then one would expect there to be the same amount of ISDs in the other part of the pincher.).

Even before the Death Star was destroyed, the Rebels broke the center of the Imperial line by taking down the Executor and the ISD right next to it.

Which was after Palps was killed. While he lived, the EMpire was winning.

[Rommie2006]

The 25,000 ship figure is not canonical.

Under the new canon rules actually it is (thanks for the correction on Han's team, btw.) The 25,000 Star Destroyer figure is mentioned in the novels and therefore is whatever level canon they are. C level, IIRC.

WTF? Cos Lucas changed his canon rules the 25k ISD figure is now indisputable? Did you consider the fact that the 25k "canon" figure may have been published before the change in canon rules?

25k is the lower limit of the no. of ISD from some analysis done some time back. And r you sure the 25k figure was referring to all ISD in the ENTIRE imperial fleet?

[vakundok]

So, the rebell ineligence would have detected that one ISD had disappeared from every tenth sector group (still 100 or more ships), but they did not recognize that a whole sector fleet (actually the fleet of the sector into which the attack was planned) was missing completely.

I do not have problem with the imp fleet size, I have problem with that explanation.

Note:
Without Lando's intuition, the attacking fighter wave and a quite large part of the capital ships would have collided into the shield and would have been destroyed. (Among them the Headquarters Frigate, the rebell command ship that was at the front of the formation.)

Again, without Lando, the rebell fleet would have tried to retreat, something Piett had orders to handle.

Then again, without Lando, the rebell fleet would have never attacked the imperial from point- blank range. But they did and this turned the emperor's order against the imperial fleet. In the chaos resulted, desperation was much more important than numbers.