Medical Technology

[Master of Ossus]

I've been examining some examples of the observed medical capabilities in both universes, and I have come to a few conclusions about their different merits. For the purpose of limiting this discussion, I will primarily focus on known SF medical technology, and technology available to denizens of the Empire. This tends to be a much closer field than weapons or military technology has, and in many areas the UFP is actually ahead of the Galactic Empire in this particular area. But that is for the reader to decide. This is primarily made to state a position, with reasoning, and examples. Having done this, I tend to believe that the two sides both have advantages in some important fields. This is intended to present my results.

1. ST technology is superior at regrowing soft tissue and bone. The dermal regenerators are all very fast, apparently painless, and effective when used by a trained physician. They appear to be marginally effective even without a physician (just some normal person), but their effectiveness is increased through training.

Bacta is effective in treating healing both bone and tissue, but it requires more time and more heavy, specialized equipment to operate. It does, however, appear to have a marginal advantage in not requiring a trained physician. This advantage is magnified by SW's medical droids.

2. ST technology is inferior at regrowing nervous tissue. We know that SF's ability to regrow bone is considerable, but when Worf broke his back nothing in the UFP, short of a ridiculous cop-out at the end of the episode, could save his life.

SW technology has been able to heal such injuries. In Vader's case implants were used to heal the spine. It appears that bacta is also capable of healing some major nervous injuries (ref. The Bacta War), however bacta on Thyferra is different from the substance available to the rest of the Galaxy, and is by all accounts more potent. It is thus unclear whether or not bacta during the time of the OT would be sufficient for healing the kind of damage Vader sustained. It is also possible that the reason Vader's injuries had not healed was because of the time he went without treatment, or with minimal treatment (explaining his scarring). We won't know if this is viable until Episode III. It is, of course, also possible that he was alergic to bacta (unlikely), or that his injuries were simply too massive to be treated with bacta (also unlikely--bacta has cured serious injuries in the books without problems). Bacta is expensive, but it is highly likely that Vader would have received the best possible treatment, regardless of expense, so this is not really viable as a reason he was not healed.

3. SW technology is superior at regrowing organs. Picard's heart was not regrown after he was stabbed. We have also seen numerous examples of injuries, such as General Martok's eye, that have not been either fixed or replaced with cybernetics. This appears to be a limitation of ST technology in general, as Martok had numerous friends in the UFP who probably would have been willing to give him a prosthetic eye. Note that Geordi's eyes were enhanced with prosthetics. This indicates an advance in SF medical technology, as he required the obvious use of a visor in the series. It is unclear how much of his eyes required replacement, but I find it likely that his retinas, irises, and pupils all had to be augmented. It is also unclear whether or not the partial replacement of Geordi's eyes and the simultaneous non-treatment of Martok's injury is a problem with adjusting SF medical technology to Klingon physiology, and of course it could be (as in the case of SW's Even Piell), that Martok chose purposely not to replace his eye, though treatment for his injury was available. This strikes me as being highly likely, as Martok's status as a warrior would potentially be jeopardized if he were forced to wear a mechanical device. Other, similar injuries in ST have never been shown to be survivable, though Picard's impressive survival after being stabbed by a Nausican indicates technology vastly in excess of our current ability to repair damage to the heart. Note that his artificial heart was, however, by all accounts vastly inferior to an organic heart. This is a reasonably derived limit for ST's ability to repair major organs.

In SW, damage to major organs can be repaired (like almost anything else) using bacta. In The Bacta War, serious spinal, liver, and kidney damage was repaired in less than one week. SW's ability to replace organs, however, is limited. Most appendages that do not normally grow back do need to be replaced. Artificial arms, legs, and eyes have all been observed. However, these are not the limits of SW medical technology. The best possible treatment is to regrow the organ using cloning technology, in a generally illegal process described in Zuckuss's Tale. It appears that it is vastly more difficult to regrow limbs than it is to repair organs, perhaps because of a limit to how precisely different groups of cells can be encouraged to grow. It is also possible to graft originally dissimilar, organic parts onto a single individual. While the obvious example for this is the Yuuzhan Vong, their technology is obviously wholly separate from that of the regular SW universe. A much more applicable example of such a treatment is the cyborg, Gorm the Impaler. It had numerous different limbs and organs, as well as cybernetic implants, installed to improve its performance and to heal injuries, over time.

4. ST is superior at genetic engineering of complex organisms. Doctor Bashir's treatments yielded spectacular, if illegal, results. Bashir became vastly more intelligent and dextrous, and apparently became marginally stronger. Kahn and his followers appear to have been similarly modified in the past. This is beyond the observed capabilities of SW bio-technology, including the Yuuzhan Vong (though the YV have a greater ability to create new forms of life, and are probably better bio-scientists, overall).

SW technology has been limited in its applications of such technology, but appears to focus much more on cybernetic replacements than actual genetic modifications. This is demonstrated by Lobot, and numerous other cyborgs in the SW universe. Gorm the Impaler, again, is the obvious SW example of an individual who actually set out to improve itself through cybernetics, as opposed to merely replacing damaged or injured parts. Lobot's intelligence seems to be comparable to a droids (and, respectively, with Bashir's). He does have abilities that Bashir does not have, including the ability to communicate directly with computers, but Bashir is clearly stronger and more dextrous than Lobot. It is unclear which is more capable overall, though Bashir is clearly more capable of interacting with other humans. Cybernetic replacement/augmentation of the brain, in SW, is dangerous. It can both kill an individual, or drive them insane, and has a high rejection/failure rate. It is unclear whether this is true of ST genetic manipulation, as well, but the implication from the number of Kahn's followers, and from Bashir's parents, is that the process is not especially dangerous. A comparison of YV biological technology, and the various technologies from ST, would likely take up many pages of material and is primarily outside of the bounds of this particular treatise.

The only SW example even remotely comparable to Bashir's is the Gamorean, Voort saBinring, who was genetically enhanced to super-human intelligence. He does not appear to be quite so capable as Bashir, but I would say he shows greater improvement in his mental attributes than Bashir would have. "Piggy's" procedure was both highly experimental and highly risky, and he is a unique example of SW medical technology. It is unlikely that his success will ever be duplicated in the recent future of the SW universe.

5. SW technology appears to be better than the comparable SF ability to manipulate bacteria and viruses. Numerous examples of bioweapons in SW have been observed. By contrast, most SF weapons are designed with nanites. Though the SF control of nanites is impressive, it does not demonstrate an ability to manipulate viruses and bacteria. Nanites can alter cells, but they cannot create new organisms the way SW technology can. No concrete examples of such ST technology, to my knowledge, have been shown, though the biological weapons available to USS Voyager showed considerable advancement. It is also unclear as to how quickly these weapons were developed. Destiny's Way shows perhaps the most sophisticated biological weapon ever created in either universe. Chiss scientists, in the space of months, designed a prototype biological weapon designed to target a specific genetic structure, killing all YV creatures, as well as the YV themselves. The Emperor's Plague was designed to kill humans only, ignoring all other forms of life. The Krytos Virus, while not nearly as apparently lethal or incurable as the other diseases here mentioned, demonstrated a spectacular ability of being lethal, if untreated, to nearly all sentient, non-human forms of life within the Galaxy. This is likely the most flexible biological weapon ever created in either universe, though not the one with the highest mortality rate.

6. Computers have revolutionized the treatment of disease and injury in both universes. ST EMH programs have made medical staffs smaller, though they are generally designed only for short-term use. Although the Mark 1 had significant problems associated with its programming, the Mark 2 has since corrected many of its flaws. EMH units are apparently inexpensive, pervasive, and effective in administering first-aid to critical injuries. They are almost certainly rarely used for treating less serious injuries, but in the future of SF it is possible that most doctors could be made into researchers, with most of the actual treatments being done by EMH units. EMH units are very flexible, though their ability to treat unfamiliar species is perhaps limited. They are effective in both diagnoses and treatment, and have the ability to think creatively during treatments.

SW medical droids are the most obvious application of computer technology to medicine in the SW universe. Though expensive, they are preferrable in all ways to organic doctors for actually performing surgery and other such operations. Doctors have primarily become researchers, developing new treatments for different people. Top-of-the-line medical droids, however, are quite expensive, and generally organic doctors are more easily secured in back-water areas. Other medical droids are used to assist both living and mechanical doctors with operations, diagnoses, and long-term treatments. Specialized droids perform neuro-surgery, and other complicated operations. While more expensive and specialized than EMH units, they appear to be more effective in treating humans. Dengar's incredibly complex medical procedures are a testament to their ability, but other droids have accomplished similar feats. Plastic surgeons are also highly successful and skilled. Interestingly enough, medical droids generally specialize in a particular area of physiology, rather than a particular species. Droids have been shown to be highly capable of treating a wide variety of life-forms.

The drawback to such technological applications appears to be a decrease in the skill of organic physicians who are still, in both universes, occasionally tasked with treating patients. In Angel One, Doctor Crusher appeared utterly incapable of thinking abstractly about a virus, which nearly resulted in the deaths of much of the crew. This is likely a symptom of being overly-reliant on computers to make diagnoses. This is likely also the case in the SW universe, where droids are repeatedly shown to be incapable of thinking creatively, except in extraordinary situations. It is possible that, like Major Burns in *MASH*, such droids and computers tend to abide by pre-programmed instructions, even when patients' lives depend on their willingness to take risks to attempt to preserve otherwise dying patients. This could delay the creation of new treatments for new pathogens, though both SW and ST have shown extraordinarily fast turn-around-times in the creation of new treatments on numerous occasions.

Anyone else have anything to add to this summary? Questions? Comments? Criticism? Did I miss any obvious examples, or should I reconsider any of these positions?

[Kuja]

The only SW example even remotely comparable to Bashir's is the Gamorean, Voort saBinring, who was genetically enhanced to super-human intelligence. He does not appear to be quite so capable as Bashir, but I would say he shows greater improvement in his mental attributes than Bashir would have. "Piggy's" procedure was both highly experimental and highly risky, and he is a unique example of SW medical technology. It is unlikely that his success will ever be duplicated in the recent future of the SW universe.

They also 'upgraded' Ewoks and Ranats, a borderline semi-sentient species.

[Warspite]

3. SW technology is superior at regrowing organs. Picard's heart was not regrown after he was stabbed. We have also seen numerous examples of injuries, such as General Martok's eye, that have not been either fixed or replaced with cybernetics. This appears to be a limitation of ST technology in general, as Martok had numerous friends in the UFP who probably would have been willing to give him a prosthetic eye. Note that Geordi's eyes were enhanced with prosthetics. This indicates an advance in SF medical technology, as he required the obvious use of a visor in the series. It is unclear how much of his eyes required replacement, but I find it likely that his retinas, irises, and pupils all had to be augmented. It is also unclear whether or not the partial replacement of Geordi's eyes and the simultaneous non-treatment of Martok's injury is a problem with adjusting SF medical technology to Klingon physiology, and of course it could be (as in the case of SW's Even Piell), that Martok chose purposely not to replace his eye, though treatment for his injury was available. This strikes me as being highly likely, as Martok's status as a warrior would potentially be jeopardized if he were forced to wear a mechanical device.

Excelent compilation and evaluation.
Adding to the quote above, Chang in ST:VI has an metallic eye-patch, with three (or four?) screws (with little klingon symbols) securing the patch to it's cranial bone structure.
I guess it has to do with the warrior-like nature of the klingons, "similar" to Odin's giving it's eye for knowledge (but let's not start a thread on this one).

Bones was able to relieve blood pressure in Chekov's brain in ST:IV, by reconstructing some medicalbabble, without anesthesy and Chekov, previously in coma, recuperated immediately. (Granted, the team was in a hurry, and the movie was beyond half-time). Also in the same hospital, Bones gave a pill to some dialisis patient, and the kidney grew to full function in the space of less than a half hour.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Did you mention bacta bandages and sytho-skin (or something)?

[Kuja]

synthskin.

[pecker]

Maybe Martok chose to keep the lost eye as a sort of battle scar?

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Maybe Martok chose to keep the lost eye as a sort of battle scar?

Maybe.

[Master of Ossus]

Maybe Martok chose to keep the lost eye as a sort of battle scar?

Maybe.

I know. I specifically mentioned that possibility, and decided that it was likely.

[pecker]

Maybe Martok chose to keep the lost eye as a sort of battle scar?

Maybe.

I know. I specifically mentioned that possibility, and decided that it was likely.

Sorry, I was just kinda skimming

[Master of Ossus]

Maybe.

I know. I specifically mentioned that possibility, and decided that it was likely.

Sorry, I was just kinda skimming

Understandable. It's a pretty long post.

[Master of Ossus]

Did you mention bacta bandages and sytho-skin (or something)?

I mentioned bacta on almost every paragraph about SW medical technology. I didn't bother to talk about synth skin, because I didn't consider it to be especially important, but heregoes:

Bacta patches have a marginal advantage over dermal regenerators in that they do not need a skilled doctor or trained physician to use. Unlike most SF medical technology, such patches are designed to be applied quickly, by unskilled individuals, as a method of healing minor injuries more rapidly, and stabilizing more serious ones. Such patches are not nearly as effective as bacta tanks, and are still not as portable as dermal regenerators and similar SF technology.

Synthskin differs from bacta patches in that it does not actually promote healing of tissue. Instead, it is designed to cover injuries, stabilizing patients until they may be transported, or until they are able to receive more serious medical attention. Such patches are also highly portable, though still not as portable as dermal regenerators. They are significantly less expensive than bacta patches or a full-sized bacta tank, and they retain the advantage of being a field-dressing, designed to be applied by individuals untrained in the healing arts. It is unclear whether or not synthskin is useful in all species, or merely humans, but it appears to be designed to treat only surface wounds and other minor injuries.

Medical kits tend to offer a combination of the two patches, along with various other instruments, including medicines and drugs. More serious SW medical kits come with a wide variety of tools, and some of them are designed to facilitate minor, battle-field surgeries. These kits have long been seen in SW:RPG, but were more recently featured in Star by Star, in which the Jedi-healer, Tekli, uses such a kit in an ultimately failed effort to treat Anakin Solo, who eventually died of unrelated injuries. Some of these kits even come with computers that are designed to make diagnoses for the medic, making battlefield treatments even faster and more easy. Expensive kits come with a wide variety of drugs, and can treat hundreds or even thousands of different alien species for injuries ranging from minor cuts and scrapes to serious nerve damage, shock, and loss of appendages. These prohibitively expensive kits are designed for use by individuals with considerable medical training. While they do not replace bacta tanks as the most effective means of treating seriously injured patients, such kits are invaluable for militaries with limited numbers of medical droids, or for combat areas in which droids would be too vulnerable or too slow to access. When used in this case, it is generally understood that the most critically injured patients be stabilized using the kit and then moved to a more sophisticated medical facility behind the front-lines.

[data_link]

As a possible explanation for why implants were used to heal Vader's spine instead of repairing it using bacta, it is possible that this was done not because of an inability to heal the spine, but because the procedure for installing the implants was simpler and less time-consuming, and no real advantage was seen to regrowing the spine. This would sugggest that spinal implants in the SW univers ae at least as effective in transmitting information as organic neurons.

[Master of Ossus]

As a possible explanation for why implants were used to heal Vader's spine instead of repairing it using bacta, it is possible that this was done not because of an inability to heal the spine, but because the procedure for installing the implants was simpler and less time-consuming, and no real advantage was seen to regrowing the spine. This would sugggest that spinal implants in the SW univers ae at least as effective in transmitting information as organic neurons.

It's possible that Vader CHOSE to be cybernetically enhanced, but neurosurgery in SW is always depicted as being complicated, time-consuming, and somewhat risky. I don't see it as being possible that bacta took less time than such an operation, but the implants may actually operate better than his original spine, in which case such an elective surgery might make some sense.

[The Dark]

As a possible explanation for why implants were used to heal Vader's spine instead of repairing it using bacta, it is possible that this was done not because of an inability to heal the spine, but because the procedure for installing the implants was simpler and less time-consuming, and no real advantage was seen to regrowing the spine. This would sugggest that spinal implants in the SW univers ae at least as effective in transmitting information as organic neurons.

It's possible that Vader CHOSE to be cybernetically enhanced, but neurosurgery in SW is always depicted as being complicated, time-consuming, and somewhat risky. I don't see it as being possible that bacta took less time than such an operation, but the implants may actually operate better than his original spine, in which case such an elective surgery might make some sense.

It's also possible that part of the spine was actually disintegrated and could not be regrown by the bacta if the injury was too large.

[Master of Ossus]

As a possible explanation for why implants were used to heal Vader's spine instead of repairing it using bacta, it is possible that this was done not because of an inability to heal the spine, but because the procedure for installing the implants was simpler and less time-consuming, and no real advantage was seen to regrowing the spine. This would sugggest that spinal implants in the SW univers ae at least as effective in transmitting information as organic neurons.

It's possible that Vader CHOSE to be cybernetically enhanced, but neurosurgery in SW is always depicted as being complicated, time-consuming, and somewhat risky. I don't see it as being possible that bacta took less time than such an operation, but the implants may actually operate better than his original spine, in which case such an elective surgery might make some sense.

It's also possible that part of the spine was actually disintegrated and could not be regrown by the bacta if the injury was too large.

That's actually true. I guess I just figured that because bacta has been able to regrow broken/severed spines, it should be able to regrow vaporized spines. You're right though, that was a leap in logic, particularly since it cannot apparently regrow limbs. That is a very plausible explanation. Thanks.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

1. Clone war medical tech was primitive

2. Perhaps regrowing it would take too much time. The only thing keeping Vader alive was the force.

[arctic_series]

or maybe palpatine didn't exactly want the one who will bring balance to the force to be in any shape in which his ambitions will overthrow palpatine without a hitch ?

[Warspite]

or maybe palpatine didn't exactly want the one who will bring balance to the force to be in any shape in which his ambitions will overthrow palpatine without a hitch ?

How come? Just because Vader had a artificial spine? He did throw Palpatine down the "drain".
And maybe (maybe!) by surviving to it's wounds, made Vader stronger in his mental abilities, stronger in his will power.

[Hendrake]

5. SW technology appears to be better than the comparable SF ability to manipulate bacteria and viruses. Numerous examples of bioweapons in SW have been observed. By contrast, most SF weapons are designed with nanites. Though the SF control of nanites is impressive, it does not demonstrate an ability to manipulate viruses and bacteria. Nanites can alter cells, but they cannot create new organisms the way SW technology can. No concrete examples of such ST technology, to my knowledge, have been shown, though the biological weapons available to USS Voyager showed considerable advancement.

[Vader]Impressive.[/Vader]

Holy shit, that was a hell of a essay. My compliments, MoO.

I have only a minor nitpick: In The Vengeance Factor a faction some girl called Yuta had a virus engineered to kill only a specific family.

It is moot point as SW bioagents engineering is still more efficent and deadly, and anyway Yuta's planet was not an UFP member, but when I saw the episode I liked the idea. And, I'm an unrepenting nitpicker. *smirk*

However, I think this essay should be made sticky or saved in some site...

[Master of Ossus]

I don't think I should sticky my own essay, but if another mod wants to do it, then that would be okay with me.

Thanks for all the feedback and compliments, everyone. I'm still going over a few episodes (mostly from DS9, some of which involve medical technology), but I don't think that the conclusions will change much from the additional examples in them.

[FaxModem1]

Actually,

I remeber, in an episode of DS9, Martok refused to Bashir for an artificial eye, call it Klingon Pride or something.

Cool essay, but who has better Medical tech? the feds or the Empire?

[Master of Ossus]

Actually,

I remeber, in an episode of DS9, Martok refused to Bashir for an artificial eye, call it Klingon Pride or something.

Cool essay, but who has better Medical tech? the feds or the Empire?

I wouldn't really say that either one of them has better medical technology, overall. You can evaluate specific aspects of medical technology, but the two are based on such dissimilar principles that it is very difficult to draw a reasonable comparison between the two. For instance, the Empire is better at repairing nerves. The Federation is better at repairing bone and flesh. Which is more important? Which should we weight more heavily? Clearly most injuries are bone or flesh wounds, but nervous damage tends to be severe, crippling, and almost always irreparable except in science fiction. Which one is more impressive? I don't really know how to draw an accurate comparison between the two and definitively answer which one is better, overall. I can only do what I did, that is, by summarizing my results.

Incidentally, thank you for the information about Martok's eye. I don't have all of DS9 archived, so I'm known to occasionally miss some snipett like that. It makes perfect sense, anyway.

[Enlightenment]

Clearly most injuries are bone or flesh wounds, but nervous damage tends to be severe, crippling, and almost always irreparable except in science fiction.

Probably not for much longer. Given the way current biotech is going I'd expect real-world nerve repair technology to surpass UFP levels by 2050 at the latest.

Provided, of course, that there's no singularity (in which case 2050 is too far down the road) and civilization doesn't go 'poof' in a puff of bioterrorism or ubiquitious law enforcement.

[His Divine Shadow]

In The Last Command, Mara had her neural pathways repaired and was fine, the procedure wasn't spoken of as highly risky or anything.

[pecker]

Clearly most injuries are bone or flesh wounds, but nervous damage tends to be severe, crippling, and almost always irreparable except in science fiction.

Probably not for much longer. Given the way current biotech is going I'd expect real-world nerve repair technology to surpass UFP levels by 2050 at the latest.

Provided, of course, that there's no singularity (in which case 2050 is too far down the road) and civilization doesn't go 'poof' in a puff of bioterrorism or ubiquitious law enforcement.

Yeah, you've got to take into account that Earth had pretty much destryoed itself twice over within a 50 year period (Eugenics and WWIII, assuming the Eugenics Wars exist in TNG+)