"You're ruining my movie!"

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2005-03-12 09:40pm

This is an excerpt from Empire Building: The Remarkable Real Life Story of Star Wars by Garry Jenkins regarding the struggles between Lucas and the crew of TESB...

It was the sight of a rough cut of the still unfinished film that sent Lucas over the edge, however. Paul Hirsch had been editing throughout the filming process. More than sixty hours of film had been reduced to a two hour rough cut. When Lucas saw the assemblage he exploded. Trembling with anger he accused Kurtz, Kershner and Hirsch of sabotage. "He said: 'You're ruining my movie,'" said Gary Kurtz.

Kershner's idea of a legato second movement was utterly alien to Lucas. "Paul had put together a rough assembly and it was pretty slow. George didn't like it at all," said Kurtz. Lucas didn't appreciate the effect the more intimate moments between Han and Leia, in particular, had on the movie's pace. "George didn't like mushy stuff. He thought it slowed the action down," said Kurtz.

Lucas took control of the editing suite and locked himself away for two days. The clear implication was that "Supereditor" was going to save the day. When he emerged, the producer, director and editor were horrified at what he had done to the film.

"It was awful," laughed Kurtz. "It was chopped into tiny pieces and everything was fast."

When the trio objected violently Lucas merely became more agitated. "I'm on the hook for the money," he told them.

"He tried to pull a power number basically," said Kurtz.

Eventually it was Hirsch who talked Lucas round. When his nerves had calmed, he admitted his anger had been directed at himself as much as his team whose dedication he could not doubt. "In the end he realized the whole thing needed to be finessed," said Kurtz. "I think he was overwhelmed by events at the time."

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-03-12 10:09pm

So Galvie, what brought this up?

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2005-03-12 10:18pm

Stofsk wrote:So Galvie, what brought this up?

It came up before in this thread, but I didn't have the book handy to quote then and thought it was an interesting anecdote that deserved its own thread.

Also, to me the story signifies why TESB was as good as it was: because Lucas had Kurtz around to keep him in check.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-03-12 11:49pm

Not surprising at all since GL's directions consisted of "Faster and more intense" in ANH. It certainly was not remembered fondly by Ford or Fisher in the docus where they discussed it and Guiness aside from his view that the dialugue was 'wretched' was also none too impressed with Lucas' directing style either.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2005-03-12 11:54pm

The bit about Lucas not liking "mushy stuff" also clarifies why the romance in AOTC was so awkward.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-03-12 11:56pm

Galvatron wrote:The bit about Lucas not liking "mushy stuff" also clarifies why the romance in AOTC was so awkward.

Not to mention why there were good deleted scenes which never even made it into the film. Or even the DVD cut.

Long live Kurtz.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2005-03-13 12:42am

This just goes to prove my theory that the lower quality of the prequels can be at least partially explained by the company GL has been keeping. With ANH and ESB he had folks like Gary Kurtz around...with the prequels he has Rick McCallum, who appears to be a total yes-man.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2005-03-13 03:41am

Joe wrote:This just goes to prove my theory that the lower quality of the prequels can be at least partially explained by the company GL has been keeping. With ANH and ESB he had folks like Gary Kurtz around...with the prequels he has Rick McCallum, who appears to be a total yes-man.

Aye, the Braga to Lucas' Berman...

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2005-03-13 05:46am

This wouldn't be sour grapes on Kurtz's part since Lucas dumped him for cost overruns after TESB, would it? Nahhhh

I call bullshit.

After working with Kurtz on TESB and Howard Kazanjian on Raiders of the Lost Ark, Lucas chose Kazanjian for ROTJ. Raiders came in under time and under budget and in my opinion was just as good if not a better movie. TESB came in late and far enough over budget to send Lucas grovelling to the bank to finish the movie. No wonder he snapped.

Speaking of Kazanjian, I'm sure just about everyone agrees that the two Indiana Jones sequels were way inferior to Raiders of the Lost Ark. Using the logic some of you guys cling to, it's because Temple of Doom and The Last Crusade didn't have Howard Kazanjian around to keep Lucas in line. You gotta have that Howard Kazanjian magic for a great Indiana Jones movie!

Next you'll be telling me that Godfather 3 wasn't as good because Bob Evans wasn't around to ride herd on Francis Coppola. Give me a break!

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-03-13 06:13am

Not to mention why there were good deleted scenes which never even made it into the film. Or even the DVD cut.

I never liked those family scenes. Seemed good on paper but not on camera. Wish he had an additional director for all the romance scenes.

And the "not liking romance"-view came from Lucas in 1979/1980, the Lucas in 2001/2002 must have been somewhat different since he took the time to direct everything himself, even if the result was underwhelming.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-03-13 06:25am

VT-16 wrote:
Not to mention why there were good deleted scenes which never even made it into the film. Or even the DVD cut.
I never liked those family scenes. Seemed good on paper but not on camera. Wish he had an additional director for all the romance scenes.

I thought they were excellent. The character building scenes were the best, and they made the two - Padme and Anakin - sympathetic in the audience's eyes.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-03-13 07:05am

Maybe I need to see them again, but I just thought those scenes were very "pedestrian" and some of the acting was still bad as hell. I wouldn´t object to them being put back in, but as of now, they can stay as cut-scenes. (Funny enough, I treat cut-scenes that don´t conflict with the rest of the movie as supplementary material to the story, so in a way, they are part of the film. But that´s just me.

)

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-03-13 07:10am

VT-16 wrote:Maybe I need to see them again, but I just thought those scenes were very "pedestrian" and some of the acting was still bad as hell. I wouldn´t object to them being put back in, but as of now, they can stay as cut-scenes. (Funny enough, I treat cut-scenes that don´t conflict with the rest of the movie as supplementary material to the story, so in a way, they are part of the film. But that´s just me. )

What tickles me the wrong way is that Lucas decided to put the deleted scenes into the movie with the TPM DVDs. But then he didn't put them into AOTC. It's just inconsistent, and sucks arse, as in my opinion at least those scenes were good.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-03-13 09:42am

Eh, hearing that GL is a power hungry kid...isn't exactly surprising. Given the prequels are his baby, you can see the differences between that and when he was dipping his toes in the pool with Star Wars.

That and he's said numerous times he never liked ESB...and something of funny to note. Ford had to ad-lib "I Know" has to be my absolute favortie point of dialogue. When the actor knows the character better, it's a not a good sign for the writer.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-03-13 09:45am

I'm not in the least bit surprised that GL disliked ESB, but I'd like to know where he said it and in what context.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-03-13 09:48am

Stofsk wrote:I'm not in the least bit surprised that GL disliked ESB, but I'd like to know where he said it and in what context.

I'd have to find it again, but I do remember in one interview, before AoTC was out they asked him of the Original Trilogy what was his favorite and least.

I believe he said Jedi was his favorite, and Empire he disliked the most. He never said it as stylistically or such he said it more he never liked the story of it.

I know this is what caused the cascade of things being released by others who worked on ESB at the time to reveal even things like the Kurtz bit above and what not.

Even in the intervening years between RoTJ and TPM, it was noted ESB was just a difficult one amongst the whole of LFL.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2005-03-13 12:48pm

It was probably a very unpleasant time for Lucas. He was putting every dime he had, his reputation and possibly his career on the line. In retrospect, it seems silly, but TESB could have flopped, bankrupted Lucas and put him on the studios' DO NOT HIRE list along with Michael Cimino. Keep in mind, Lucas was already on the shit list for bucking the system. John Landis had a rough time with The Blues Brothers at that time, too. Lucas, Cimino and Landis were being hyped as "Hollywood Out of Control" because each spent in excess of $25 million on their movies.

With Lucas spending his own money, it was undoubtedly a lot worse for him.

For the people who make the movies, it's about more than the movies themselves. By the time ROTJ was being made, Lucas was no longer in danger of being cleaned out, and in spite of having to take over directing a large part of the movie, it was turned in on time, on budget and without Lucas having a heart attack like his friend Coppola had while making Apocalypse Now.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-03-13 12:55pm

I don't see how your dissertation has any influence on the fact that Kurtz seems to have added a moderating and "second opinion" influence that ROTJ, and also the prequels, lack. All it says is Lucas' had more reasons to be mad than the film was not kiddie and choppy enough for him.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2005-03-13 01:35pm

Lucas has made great movies without Kurtz (THX-1138, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Tucker). Kurtz...

Case closed.

[removed disclaimer]

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2005-03-13 01:43pm

Elfdart wrote:This wouldn't be sour grapes on Kurtz's part since Lucas dumped him for cost overruns after TESB, would it? Nahhhh I call bullshit.

Well, I find it hard to believe that he'd be stupid enough to fabricate a story that allegedly had two other witnesses in Paul Hirsch and Irvin Kershner. Unless, that is, you're suggesting there's a conspiracy against Lucas.

Elfdart wrote:After working with Kurtz on TESB and Howard Kazanjian on Raiders of the Lost Ark, Lucas chose Kazanjian for ROTJ. Raiders came in under time and under budget and in my opinion was just as good if not a better movie. TESB came in late and far enough over budget to send Lucas grovelling to the bank to finish the movie. No wonder he snapped.

Speaking of Kazanjian, I'm sure just about everyone agrees that the two Indiana Jones sequels were way inferior to Raiders of the Lost Ark. Using the logic some of you guys cling to, it's because Temple of Doom and The Last Crusade didn't have Howard Kazanjian around to keep Lucas in line. You gotta have that Howard Kazanjian magic for a great Indiana Jones movie!

Raiders also had the benefit of a talented director that Lucas couldn't strong-arm and Lawrence Kasdan's writing. Also, Paramount financed the film's entire $20 million budget so it wasn't nearly the gamble for Lucas that TESB was.

Elfdart wrote:Lucas has made great movies without Kurtz (THX-1138, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Tucker). Kurtz...

Case closed.

And Kershner has dogs like Never Say Never Again and Robocop 2 to his credit. How does that change the fact that Kurtz and Kershner were both integral to the success of TESB?

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2005-03-13 01:50pm

Elfdart wrote:Lucas has made great movies without Kurtz (THX-1138, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Tucker). Kurtz...

Case closed.

[removed disclaimer]

He produced The Dark Crystal

...which was decent.

Slipstream which kind of sucked even if it did have Mark Hamil and Bill Paxton in it.

There are a couple of other movies that I've never heard off.

Incidently, IMDB also has him as co-producer for American Graftiti another one of Lucas' good movies.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-03-13 01:50pm

Elfdart wrote:Lucas has made great movies without Kurtz (THX-1138, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Tucker). Kurtz...

Case closed.

[removed disclaimer]

Which has precisely nothing to do with the point that he had a particular purpose with STAR WARS that was apparently moderated by Kurtz for the better. Making any other movie of any other type without Kurtz means shit.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2005-03-13 02:49pm

Another interesting quote from the book...

The two men's first major difference of opinion came when Kurtz drew up a budget of $18 million--almost double the cost of Star Wars. He saw no way of making the film for significantly less. In the three years since Star Wars, inflation had bumped up the cost of all film material by a factor of three or four. And no agent in the entertainment world would now allow his client to work for George Lucas for nothing. "The problem with being a hit was that no one was going to work for a minimum, they all wanted top dollar," said Kurtz. Eventually Kurtz was given the $18 million he needed. Lucas would not allow him to forget whose money it was, however.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-03-13 04:19pm

That and he's said numerous times he never liked ESB..

Never liked ESB itself or the making of it, which was rough as hell?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2005-03-13 04:55pm

I liked the deleted scene where Anakin had to face Padme's father. "So, Mr. Jedi, what do you do for a living?"