What-if situation, could the Feddies pull it off?

[Straha]

Alright, Picard is off trying to find out what happened to two Galaxy Class ships when Q shows up, with gifts. Five fully functioning, unmanned Imperial Star Destroyers just pop into existence, containing within their data-banks through the magic of Q-Tech a sort of "Everything You Wanted to Know About the Empire, but Were Afraid to Ask" Encyclopedia, which contains everything from detailed plans for Imperial Shipyards and ships, to troop and ship deployments, to personell files, to the Emperor's middle name (Alfonz.) He gives a warning however, and says that the Empire is coming in roughly ten years. Q throws Picard (his dear friend) another bone, however, in that if the Federation can win TWO major fleet engagements, Q will close the wormhole connecting the Galaxies, however if they can't, the show is over and Q will even make sure it stays over, preventing time-travel, technobabble, or any other said deus ex machina.

On the other hand we have the ISD, lets call it, Indefagitable who has just gone through a wormhole, blasted two galaxy class star-ships, retrieved their databanks, and gone back home to give HQ the word about this new Galaxy for conquest. Even though it'll seem like mere days to them, when they next go through the Wormhole ten years will have passed in the Federation Galaxy.


So, can the Federation win?

[Techno_Union]

The Empire still has numbers on its side.

And wouldn't this be, to use a common example, like giving the Romans the plans for a modern fighter plane?

[The Cleric]

The Empire still has numbers on its side.

And wouldn't this be, to use a common example, like giving the Romans the plans for a modern fighter plane?

Yes. Trek doesn't have the tech base to build too many ships. After the first engangement where the 15 or so SD's tear through the Empire's forces, full sector fleets are sent out. Trek loses after that.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

The Federationa dn their superfriends can manage two fleet engagements given ten years time of preparation.

Assuming Alyeska's calcs for about 100 Galaxy-sized ships per year for Utopia Planetia shipyards and 2000 Defiant-sized ships per year, this may work. A defiant is about the same size as a Corellian Gunship, so that's 20,000 of those in 10 years, as well as a little over 100 SDs taking Mike Wong's calcs of 7 Galaxies= 1 SD.

So yeah, they'd win the first two engagements, considering how the Empire doesn't effectively defend colonies at all(Truce at Bakura) and before the Empire can bend over the Alpha Quadrant to begin the buttfucking, the Federation will already have garnered enough victories to ensure a miracle from Q.

[tumbletom]

The Federationa dn their superfriends can manage two fleet engagements given ten years time of preparation.

Assuming Alyeska's calcs for about 100 Galaxy-sized ships per year for Utopia Planetia shipyards and 2000 Defiant-sized ships per year, this may work. A defiant is about the same size as a Corellian Gunship, so that's 20,000 of those in 10 years, as well as a little over 100 SDs taking Mike Wong's calcs of 7 Galaxies= 1 SD.

So yeah, they'd win the first two engagements, considering how the Empire doesn't effectively defend colonies at all(Truce at Bakura) and before the Empire can bend over the Alpha Quadrant to begin the buttfucking, the Federation will already have garnered enough victories to ensure a miracle from Q.

But you have to man all of those starships--do you think the feds will institute a draft for all of the people they will need?

[Darth Fanboy]

If the Empire is coming loaded for bear in order to conquer the new galaxy then I do not believe the Feds have a chance to win two engagements. Assuming they win the first one the Empire will strike back with even more force. Concentrating Fed ships in one place just seems like bad news. The numbers will be more concentrated but theres risks also.

As for Uber-Amoeba's reference to Bakura, Bakura was not a major colony nor was there any threat save for Ssi Ruuk who appeared after the Emperor's death, thus revealing themselves as a threat.

[Lone_Prodigy]

Also, where in the hell would the Feddies manage to garner the infrastructure, equipment, crews, training, and so many other prerequisites in order to even begin to make Star Wars ships. Hell, building the black hole-encircling facilities for hypermatter would take 10 years for the Feddies. And after all, Federation ship factories and shipyards would not magically transmogrify into Star Wars ship factories and shipyards. Besides, if the Empire ran head on into a force of vessels comparable to their own, you can bet their next foray into the wormhole would involve lots of Executor-class Star Dreadnaughts.

[darthdavid]

If I were the federation, I'd use my ten years to build up as many bombers and low end ships (say frigates) as possible and then try and stop the Imps at the worm hole. Barring that, I take my hyperdrive and move as many people as I can to greener pastures. Say hyperdrive sleeper ships to a neighboring galaxy. Once there I immedately starte industriaizing untill I have enough shit to go back and kick imperial ass (well unless the "make sure it stays finished" bit dosen't just apply to deus ex machinas but legitimate military campaigns as well).

[Darth Fanboy]

Also, where in the hell would the Feddies manage to garner the infrastructure, equipment, crews, training, and so many other prerequisites in order to even begin to make Star Wars ships. Hell, building the black hole-encircling facilities for hypermatter would take 10 years for the Feddies. And after all, Federation ship factories and shipyards would not magically transmogrify into Star Wars ship factories and shipyards. Besides, if the Empire ran head on into a force of vessels comparable to their own, you can bet their next foray into the wormhole would involve lots of Executor-class Star Dreadnaughts.

what are you talking about. nobody said the feds were making SW ships.The goal is simply to win two fleet engagements, Feds are given 10 years advance notice of the Imperial Invasion.

[mr friendly guy]

Would the "Everything You Wanted to Know About the Empire, but Were Afraid to Ask" Encyclopedia contain information on proton torpedoes (since the Empire would know of the weapons of their enemies).

Proton torpedoes might be easier to build in terms of resources then full SW ships. If they can build the torpedoes and launchers to do it, then the Feds could possibly win the first engagement.

The empire will then send more ships, however since the Federation ships only pack bite, but can't take the hits, they might not go overboard with the number of ships. This might be the best chance for the Federation to win the second engagement.

On another note, if the Feds manage to win the second engagement, the next batch of ships the Empire will send may look for the first batch. This may be possible for the Feds to ambush the Empire, if they can have cloaked mines with proton torpedoes in them.

[Solauren]

Could the Federation find a way to rig up a Star Destroyer to explode like a massive torpedoe?

Ship Engagement #1: Star Trek would probably win no problem given the seer surprise edge they'd have.

#2 (when the Empire sends more ships), the Federation ISD blows up amongst the Imperial fleet, rigged for sheer destructive power.

Okay, rather unlikely.

However....
What about if they managed to equip an ISD with Phase-Cloak technology (10 years time might be enough time to pull that off) and some kind of Phase-Adaptor-technobabble to the ISD's weapons so it can hurt non-Phase Cloaked ships?

To win the second engagement, the UFP would have to get very, very cute.

Does blowing up the wormhole themselves as the second wave of Imperial ships comes through count as winning a fleet engagement?

[Darth Fanboy]

My apologies for my above post. I misread the OP.

[brianeyci]

The Empire still has numbers on its side.

And wouldn't this be, to use a common example, like giving the Romans the plans for a modern fighter plane?

Yes. Trek doesn't have the tech base to build too many ships. After the first engangement where the 15 or so SD's tear through the Empire's forces, full sector fleets are sent out. Trek loses after that.

Is not Techno_Union trying to say that it's like expecting the Romans to catch up on hundreds of years of technology just because you give an example? With SW it seems to be worse, 25,000 years if we take the hyperspace versus subspace example.

Resource requirement is not the problem of giving someone advanced technology... it's the least of their problems.

Brian

[Lone_Prodigy]

what are you talking about. nobody said the feds were making SW ships.The goal is simply to win two fleet engagements, Feds are given 10 years advance notice of the Imperial Invasion.

Well, since 5 ISDs wouldn't make much of a difference I assumed that it was believed that Feddies could just begin pumping out Star Wars ships.

[Robert Walper]

what are you talking about. nobody said the feds were making SW ships.The goal is simply to win two fleet engagements, Feds are given 10 years advance notice of the Imperial Invasion.

Well, since 5 ISDs wouldn't make much of a difference I assumed that it was believed that Feddies could just begin pumping out Star Wars ships.

They would first have to establish an infrastructure capable of creating all the materials and parts necessary for construction of Imperial vessels. Creating such could take decades or longer, and that's not even the construction of the vessels themselves. Never mind the Galactic Empire has a resource base and already existing infrastructure that vastly dwarfs the Federation's most ridiculasly optimistic expectations.

[Hitch Hiker]

Not only would the Imp's have there vast fleet of ISD's and SSD's there is also the fleets combined compliment of tie fighters. which could, like a swarm of angry wasps prove to be a hell of a nusiances.

Also Fedaration ships are not renound for winning battles, there main tactic's are lighting strikes followed by retreating. also if the Imps have got there hands on a fedaration databank theyll know how to come up with a more effective shilding to protect form phasers and photon/quntum torpedoes.

fianlly theres just the size of the imperial ships to the feddie ones. an SSD is about 17km long. and as Picard says a soveringe class is only about 800 meters in length.

[NecronLord]

Define winning a major fleet engagement.

I have high hopes that a Federation Starship could beat a probe droid.

It's unlikely that a major fleet engagement for the Feds would be more than a probing force for the Empire/

[Darth Wong]

Resource requirement is not the problem of giving someone advanced technology... it's the least of their problems.

Brian

It's not resources; it's infrastructure. To a computer builder, "resources" might mean RAM. But in order to get RAM, you need the infrastructure. The more sophisticated technology is, the more multi-layered its infrastructural requirements are. The sheer number of first-tier, second-tier, and third-tier suppliers required for something as mundane as the automobile industry is staggering, and even the third-tier suppliers are nowhere near the raw natural material stage; they still buy heavily processed materials and various finished products.

Think of a finished product as the top of a giant pyramid; the knowledge required to put that last stone on top of the pyramid is fucking useless without the rest of the pyramid.

[nightmare]

So yeah, they'd win the first two engagements, considering how the Empire doesn't effectively defend colonies at all(Truce at Bakura)

Truce of Bakura happened after the Battle of Endor. The Empire was already imploding at this point, just like Palpatine had designed it for if he was ever lost. That's no small distinction. They obviously cared enough about Bakura to establish a presence in the system when the Empire was still around. Additionally, Palpatine was playing under the table with the Ssi-Ruuk. In conclusion, you can't use that as an example of Imperial colonial defence.

[Lord Pounder]

Where did MW state that 7 GCS = 1 ISD? The only thing i can think off woulf be in his Conquest fan fic and if i'm not mistaken Mike bumped up the fed stats becaause a 1 sided battle is no fun to read, also it was written before the AotC ICS.

[Alyeska]

The Federationa dn their superfriends can manage two fleet engagements given ten years time of preparation.

Assuming Alyeska's calcs for about 100 Galaxy-sized ships per year for Utopia Planetia shipyards and 2000 Defiant-sized ships per year, this may work. A defiant is about the same size as a Corellian Gunship, so that's 20,000 of those in 10 years, as well as a little over 100 SDs taking Mike Wong's calcs of 7 Galaxies= 1 SD.

So yeah, they'd win the first two engagements, considering how the Empire doesn't effectively defend colonies at all(Truce at Bakura) and before the Empire can bend over the Alpha Quadrant to begin the buttfucking, the Federation will already have garnered enough victories to ensure a miracle from Q.

But you have to man all of those starships--do you think the feds will institute a draft for all of the people they will need?

Federation doesn't need to draft people. Starfleet has 2 billion people as it is. Each Defiant can be opperated by just 50 people. 50 x 20,000 comes out to 1 million. The Federation has a minimum of 2 trillion citizens. I think they can find 1 million volunteers.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Where did MW state that 7 GCS = 1 ISD? The only thing i can think off woulf be in his Conquest fan fic and if i'm not mistaken Mike bumped up the fed stats becaause a 1 sided battle is no fun to read, also it was written before the AotC ICS.

No, I meant that they're equal in volume. Just like a Corellian Gunship has about the same length as the Defiant(though the Defiant is thicker)

[lPeregrine]

Truce of Bakura happened after the Battle of Endor. The Empire was already imploding at this point, just like Palpatine had designed it for if he was ever lost. That's no small distinction. They obviously cared enough about Bakura to establish a presence in the system when the Empire was still around. Additionally, Palpatine was playing under the table with the Ssi-Ruuk. In conclusion, you can't use that as an example of Imperial colonial defence.

Truce at Bakura happened the day after the Battle of Endor, hardly enough time for the Empire's collapse to have any effect. I'd say it's a pretty good example of colonial defense, as long as the colony in question is a middle-of-nowhere one like Bakura.

As for Palpatine's involvement with the Ssi-Ruuk, if I remember right that was in a fairly vague manner. I don't remember seeing any references to agreeing on a specific world to let them have. So I doubt Bakura's defenses had been stripped for that reason.

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As for the original question, I think they could probably do it, as long as whoever's in charge can keep the pacifists and incompetents out of the way long enough.

As far as the Empire knows, their target is completely defenseless, so they aren't going to send in a thousand Star Destroyers. The first victory would be almost effortless, especially if they fight a defensive battle at the wormhole. And with full knowledge of the Empire's territory and five Star Destroyers (a decent force by Star Wars standards) I seriously doubt they couldn't find another battle they could win. With that kind of intelligence and preparation time, they can easily pick a target they know they can beat.

The only question is what defines a "major" fleet engagement. Does an ambush of the first wave through the wormhole count? How well defended does a target have to be before its destruction counts towards the goal?

[Lone_Prodigy]

Truce at Bakura happened the day after the Battle of Endor, hardly enough time for the Empire's collapse to have any effect. I'd say it's a pretty good example of colonial defense, as long as the colony in question is a middle-of-nowhere one like Bakura.

Well, from what I recall, almost immediately after the Battle of Endor various Imperial warlords and Moffs, upon hearing of the Emperor's death, ordered their ships to pull back to their own fortified sectors in order to consolidate power. That's what happened to the Black Fleet ships– they began to pull back, and if the Yevetha hadn't anally violated them they would've destroyed all of their severely damaged/immobile ISDs, their shipyards, and pulled back to the deep core. And remember– Truce at Bakura happened 2-4 days after the Battle of Endor. Plenty of time for the Imperial higher-ups to find out about the Emperor's death, even though few backwater governors knew about it at the time.

[lPeregrine]

Yes, but they get the message the day after the battle, which means it would've been sent before anyone there knew the Emperor was dead. Since nobody said anything about "they pulled out the 10 ISDs guarding us right after we sent our help message", there was no significant reduction in Bakura's defenses. It was just a middle of nowhere world with very limited defenses.