DS acceleration oddity

[DarkStar]

However, this makes no sense, and ignores the canon facts. Shortly after the Death Star entered the system, we are told that the DS will be in firing position in 30 minutes. More importantly, we are told that the Death Star is orbiting the planet at maximum velocity. (The idea of maximum velocity is peculiar here, but could refer to the simple orbital trajectory, or something to do with the repulsorlifts.)

You simply betray your utter lack of knowledge about anything. For a given orbital altitude, there is a speed at which a non-accelerated object will travel. If the object goes faster than that, it will open up its orbit, if it goes slower, it will begin to fall towards the planet (or sun, moon, etc). If one wishes to go faster than this speed, one must thrust outward to hold one's ship in that orbit. The maximum speed of the DS in that orbit would be limited by the acceleration it could achieve towards the planet.

Hence my use of the phrase "simple orbital trajectory", idiot. However, if the Death Star is as uber-maneuverable as some claim, it was a waste of time for them to bother dealing with issues of orbital mechanics.

[DarkStar]

A retrograde orbit is an orbit that goes in the opposite direction of the majority of orbits in a system. For example, all satellites above earth travel from west to east, or counterclockwise when viewed from above the North pole. A satellite traveling from east to west, or clockwise, has a retrograde orbit.

By saying that the Death Star is in a retrograde orbit, I'm saying it's traveling the opposite direction of the moon. All things being equal, it would be quicker to "catch" the moon by traveling at it head on, as opposed to playing catch up.

When you're making a thirty minute orbit, it hardly matters which way you go... the moon isn't going to move that far.

For example, let's take a moon in a much smaller orbit, such as Earth's. It takes the thing a month to circle the Earth. On the other hand, Ganymede is able to whip around Jupiter in a week's time.

You'll note, however, that none of these orbits are mere minutes or hours long. Even if Yavin's moon whipped around at Ganymede-speed, it would hardly be more efficient and tactically wise to slowly orbit the planet, instead of either turning and shooting, or coming out of hyperspace at a point that would allow you to simply shoot when you arrived.

[Gil Hamilton]

Hence my use of the phrase "simple orbital trajectory", idiot. However, if the Death Star is as uber-maneuverable as some claim, it was a waste of time for them to bother dealing with issues of orbital mechanics.

Firstly, dummy, anyone who travels in space has to deal with orbital mechanics, its inevitable no matter how powerful you are.

Secondly, you seem to be missing something important here. It dropped out of hyper on the opposite side of Yavin the Gas Giant. This mean that the direction it was coming from was on the wrong side of the Gas Giant. An interesting aspect of things in hyperspace is that large masses cast "shadows" in hyperspace. Yavin is a bloody large mass, so it's doubtful that the Death Star could have flown through it and survive the ordeal. So it had to drop out of hyper and circumnavigate the planet. Dropping out right on top of the Rebel base would be impossible.
Now go away, Trekkie, or I'll oppress you some more.

[Howedar]

However, this makes no sense, and ignores the canon facts. Shortly after the Death Star entered the system, we are told that the DS will be in firing position in 30 minutes. More importantly, we are told that the Death Star is orbiting the planet at maximum velocity. (The idea of maximum velocity is peculiar here, but could refer to the simple orbital trajectory, or something to do with the repulsorlifts.)

You simply betray your utter lack of knowledge about anything. For a given orbital altitude, there is a speed at which a non-accelerated object will travel. If the object goes faster than that, it will open up its orbit, if it goes slower, it will begin to fall towards the planet (or sun, moon, etc). If one wishes to go faster than this speed, one must thrust outward to hold one's ship in that orbit. The maximum speed of the DS in that orbit would be limited by the acceleration it could achieve towards the planet.

Very well, the DS has no limit to its maneuverability or acceleration. Concession accepted.
Hence my use of the phrase "simple orbital trajectory", idiot. However, if the Death Star is as uber-maneuverable as some claim, it was a waste of time for them to bother dealing with issues of orbital mechanics.

[Howedar]

Damnit!

The first line of the last quote was mine. It should be entirely outside the quotes.

[DarkStar]

Hence my use of the phrase "simple orbital trajectory", idiot. However, if the Death Star is as uber-maneuverable as some claim, it was a waste of time for them to bother dealing with issues of orbital mechanics.

Firstly, dummy, anyone who travels in space has to deal with orbital mechanics, its inevitable no matter how powerful you are.

Secondly, you seem to be missing something important here. It dropped out of hyper on the opposite side of Yavin the Gas Giant. This mean that the direction it was coming from was on the wrong side of the Gas Giant. An interesting aspect of things in hyperspace is that large masses cast "shadows" in hyperspace. Yavin is a bloody large mass, so it's doubtful that the Death Star could have flown through it and survive the ordeal. So it had to drop out of hyper and circumnavigate the planet. Dropping out right on top of the Rebel base would be impossible.
Now go away, Trekkie, or I'll oppress you some more.

Now that's just silly. If the Rebel screen is as accurate as you claim, then the DS, if it dropped out of hyperspace on the opposite side of the planet, must have then traveled a great distance to the left side, and then started orbiting to the right.

[Typhonis 1]

Could the DS have fired through Yavin since it is a gas giant or would it have affected the beam somehow?

[Darth Yoshi]

Yavin wouldn't have done anything to the beam itself, but the planet would have obscured readings, so that you wouldn't be able to target Yavin 4.

[Master of Ossus]

Could the DS have fired through Yavin since it is a gas giant or would it have affected the beam somehow?

This is a hotly debated issue. There are many people who claim that the DS would be able to destroy gas giants. I believe that this would only be possible if the gas giant had a metal core, so that the superlaser would be able to react with something. We really don't know what the effects of a superlaser on a gas giant would be, so it is difficult for us to speculate on them, but Yavin might also have a metal core that would prevent the DS from firing through it. Alternatively, the DS's main weapon might not have been able to penetrate just the gas of such a planet, or it might have been deflected by such a material. We don't know how the DS's weapon would have reacted to gas or liquid (other than water), and we really have no way of knowing the composition of Yavin. There is hardly any evidence except for supposition, either way, so it is VERY difficult for us to tell. Short answer: I don't know. No one knows, except maybe George Lucas.

[Gil Hamilton]

Now that's just silly. If the Rebel screen is as accurate as you claim, then the DS, if it dropped out of hyperspace on the opposite side of the planet, must have then traveled a great distance to the left side, and then started orbiting to the right.

(A) It's called breaking and (B) they could easily insert themselves at an angle.

[Gil Hamilton]

I can't seem to edit my previous post... dang it.

[Mr Bean]

Yes no editing on SW VS ST and Pure SW forums because it prevents trolls from swearing endlessy at you then editing it out later when you complain

[Patrick Ogaard]

or the Empire is utterly stupid when it comes to navigation.

No, you are the one who is utterly stupid when it comes to navigation you twit. If at least one of your two working brain cells wasn't smoking crack, you'd realize that the Death Star's orbit is Retrograde.

Try, just try to understand that. It's not that hard.

This may sound newbieish but what's a retrograde orbit when it's at home?

I may embarass myself by attempting to answer this one, but here goes:

It means backwards.

If, for example, the Rebel moon was moving clockwise around the gas giant, then the Death Star would have been going counterclockwise (as in, in the opposite direction).

That way, the orbital velocities of the moon and the Death Star would add together, making the two bodies meet fairly quickly. Were the Death Star to follow the moon in the same orbital direction, the moon would continue to zip along in its orbit, subtracting the moon's velocity from the Death Star's to give the effective closing speed. Tarkin would likely have had the navigator who came up with that idea shot.

In joking military parlance, retreats are referred to as retrograde maneuvers.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Could the DS have fired through Yavin since it is a gas giant or would it have affected the beam somehow?

This is a hotly debated issue. There are many people who claim that the DS would be able to destroy gas giants. I believe that this would only be possible if the gas giant had a metal core, so that the superlaser would be able to react with something. We really don't know what the effects of a superlaser on a gas giant would be, so it is difficult for us to speculate on them, but Yavin might also have a metal core that would prevent the DS from firing through it. Alternatively, the DS's main weapon might not have been able to penetrate just the gas of such a planet, or it might have been deflected by such a material. We don't know how the DS's weapon would have reacted to gas or liquid (other than water), and we really have no way of knowing the composition of Yavin. There is hardly any evidence except for supposition, either way, so it is VERY difficult for us to tell. Short answer: I don't know. No one knows, except maybe George Lucas.

The way I see it, Yavin in the visuals is a huge gas giant, at least as large as Jupiter if not larger, edging into brown dwarf territory. The novelizatin supports that to some extent, saying that Yavin is a huge gas giant with a comparatively small core of frozen liquids. Even if the core was the size of a large conventional planet, though, that does not necessarily mean the standard DS blast would have blown the core apart hard enough to exit the atmospheric envelope. In that case, likely all the Rebels would have experienced would have been an earthquake or three and orbital wobble as the gas giant's center of mass shifted a bit. If the core had been missed, the superlaser blast would have likely shed plenty of energy passing through the gas giant's atmosphere, coming out the other side and zipping off into space in rather weaker form.

[Gil Hamilton]

Yes no editing on SW VS ST and Pure SW forums because it prevents trolls from swearing endlessy at you then editing it out later when you complain

Bah... looks like my embarrassing typo stands then

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Is there a way to set it up so you can change your mind within five minutes (or thereabouts) of posting it? Even if you can't change it, maybe you should be allowed to recant, especially if no one seemed to have seen it yet?

[Mr Bean]

Yes but we don't want that either, Let your typos stand and BE WARNED!

Its to make you LOOK at what your saying before hitting submit

[Master of Ossus]

Yeah, I agree with Mr. Bean. If you were allowed to change things, then you could rapidly deflect entire counter-arguments. It is better the way it is, even if it does lead to some minor typographical problems.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

SW only this is.



[img]http://supreme_sheridan.tripod.com/images/thread_moved.txt[/img]

[DarkStar]

SW only this is.

Has it occurred to you that it is rather dishonest to move threads in this fashion? By placing such threads in the Pure Star Wars area, you're effectively hiding them from a large number of people who only come for the fights. I, for one, spend virtually no time in this area, unless a thread gets hidden here.

[Master of Ossus]

SW only this is.

Has it occurred to you that it is rather dishonest to move threads in this fashion? By placing such threads in the Pure Star Wars area, you're effectively hiding them from a large number of people who only come for the fights. I, for one, spend virtually no time in this area, unless a thread gets hidden here.

Shut the hell up, Darkstar. He's right to be moving this one. It's clearly SW only. Pay attention, and stop posting idiotic points all the time. I grow tired of crushing them at every turn.

[DarkStar]

Shut the hell up, Darkstar.

Eat shit and live, Ossus.

He's right to be moving this one. It's clearly SW only.

No, it isn't. While the topic deals specifically with a particular SW moment, the actual purpose of the thread is clearly in Vs. Debate territory. After all, Wong posted the page I referenced which deals specifically with Death Star drive tech ... according to your narrow-minded view, that doesn't belong on his SW vs. ST site.

Pay attention, and stop posting idiotic points all the time. I grow tired of crushing them at every turn.

Then you should be feeling very energetic, not having crushed anything.

[Master of Ossus]

DarkStar, look. Even if the point of this thread is to debate SW vs. ST (which is NEVER stated in the prompt) it is only dealing with a SW issue. It SHOULD be in the Pure SW forum. GAT will back me up on this one, as will most of the moderators. BTW, I think this debate should be closed, because most reasonable people will agree that if the only thing we're arguing about is where it should go, then there's really nothing left to debate, anymore.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Be quiet DarkStar. This is pure SW. I don't care if what your objecting about is on pink-unicorns.com it's SW. And I even left a little shadow topic so all you have to do is click it in the SW vs ST forum.

[DarkStar]

And I even left a little shadow topic so all you have to do is click it in the SW vs ST forum.

Good boy.