Who would you root for redux

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-03-11 07:00pm

Seeing as most people seemed to prefer the evil fascist Empire to the evil communist TNG Federation I thought it might be a good idea to revisit the question. Again, it's if there was a way between the two whose side would be on. Forget about the power level differentials, assume the Federation has a 50/50 chance of winning.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say I'll be very surprised if a lot of people pick the fascist Empire over the democratic, capitalist TOS Federation.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2005-03-11 07:17pm

Depends on what "winning" means to you. Does it mean the winner gets to annex the entire enemy territory, or it just means that the Trek side doesn't get beaten into a pulp and the Empire withdraws? Or does it mean that Trek frees the SW galaxy from oppression?

Because the only way Trek can "annex" the entire Star Wars galaxy is by getting absorbed into it, in which case we end up with the Star Wars galaxy minus the fascist government and we never hear of the Trek guys again.

It's a bit hard to understand how can the Trek side win. What do they win, exactly. What's the "spoils of war" for them (for the Empire I assume we know it's a battle to conquer the Alpha quadrant or whatever).

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-03-11 08:49pm

Winning for the Federation in this scenario means not getting conquered.
The majority is still voting for the Empire. What is it with you guys?

Sharpshooter · Post by **Sharpshooter** » 2005-03-11 11:33pm

It sort of depends. Will the Federation still undergo the pussification that led to the version of TNG and beyond, or will it push back the communist revolt that took place between the eras?

If it is able to preserve itself, then I suppose I might feel sympathetic towards the Federation - if not, though, then see my wankfest from before.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-03-12 01:33am

Again i choose the Feds.

I dont care how pussified they become for Christ's sake people Palpy was going to suck everyone's brains or souls out or something and rule the galaxy with his Sith Elite! Now i'm no fan of communism, but shit i'd rather be a commie with my soul in one peice than let it be food for a cranky, ugly, psychic prick like the Emperor!

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-03-12 01:53am

Sharpshooter wrote:It sort of depends. Will the Federation still undergo the pussification that led to the version of TNG and beyond, or will it push back the communist revolt that took place between the eras?

The communist revolt and pussification of the Federation I think probably had a lot to do with the hundred year peace between TOS and TNG. Throw a galaxy-wrenching Fed-Empire war into the mix and I strongly suspect things will go very differently. That's not guarenteeing the commie revolt won't happen, but I think it makes it rather unlikely.

Imperator Galacticus · Post by **Imperator Galacticus** » 2005-03-12 07:07pm

Heh all, first post.

After considering the subject mildly, I think I'd probably join up with the Empire. Yeah, it might be more comfortable living in Fed space, and I probably wouldn't be prosecuted by the Fed secret police, but when it all comes down to it I look better in Imperial black than in Starfleet rainbows. Plus, I think I'd feel safer knowing that the Empire isn't the competing state within a small part of the galaxy, but actually the galaxy itself. So style over substance for me.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-03-12 11:53pm

Empire. They have a vastly superior military organisation with proper military training and ediquette. I'd rather serve the evil Imperials if it means I get proper kit to do my job.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-13 02:04pm

To have a 50/50 chance of winning. Numbers must be equal, and a Connie (Fed battleship) must be able to frag an ISD in a few shots, and go toe to to with an Excecutor, and have Imperial hyperdrive speeds. Given that, I see no reason to assume that a Federation at that level would not have its own galaxy. Which would put a crushing and total defeat of the empire quite on the cards.

Cpl Kendall wrote:Empire. They have a vastly superior military organisation with proper military training and ediquette. I'd rather serve the evil Imperials if it means I get proper kit to do my job.

Proper military etiquette = Immediate excecution sans trial for failure? Even Thrawn did that, it's not just Vader.

Sharpshooter wrote:It sort of depends. Will the Federation still undergo the pussification that led to the version of TNG and beyond, or will it push back the communist revolt that took place between the eras?

Will the empire still undergo the pussification that led to the New Republic, and Coruscant under Vong control?

Striderteen · Post by **Striderteen** » 2005-03-13 08:18pm

NecronLord wrote:Proper military etiquette = Immediate excecution sans trial for failure? Even Thrawn did that, it's not just Vader.

I definitely support summary execution for failure due to utter and total incompetence.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-14 03:39am

Striderteen wrote:I definitely support summary execution for failure due to utter and total incompetence.

Having the most powerful force user to ever live escape you due to his premonition is not incompetance.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-03-14 04:56am

NecronLord wrote:
Striderteen wrote:I definitely support summary execution for failure due to utter and total incompetence.
Having the most powerful force user to ever live escape you due to his premonition is not incompetance.

What amazes me is that everyone fucking LEAPS to excuse Thrawn of that, yet no-one dares to suggest Vader had the right idea in mind. Remarkable double-standard, that one.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-14 05:10am

Hell, if you go by the EU, if so inclined, Luke could have swatted the Chimera like a bug (more powerful than Wankatine remember).

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-03-14 12:55pm

NecronLord wrote:
Proper military etiquette = Immediate excecution sans trial for failure? Even Thrawn did that, it's not just Vader.

Thrawn only did it once correct? I'd say that Vader and Thrawns actions are the exception, have we ever seen any other flag officer exxcute people for incompetance?

Vader doesn't count as a military example. He was not even in the military, he seemed to be only in overall command. With most of the decisions made by people like Piett. I always viewed him as being there as the Emperors personal rep, just there to make sure things go smoothly.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2005-03-14 01:07pm

Well it seems when it is Kirk And Co. the voting is neck and neck.

Anyway who wouldn't root for Kirk? Kahn?

Joking aside, I think the TOS Feds would be a decent thing to root for, all things being equal, considering they haave the military sense to appear to be able to fight an extended war with the Klingons and 'clean their chronometers' so to speak.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2005-03-14 03:47pm

I'd vote for the Empire, I wouldn't like to live in a space faring civilization that builds their space stations out of cardboard.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-03-14 08:01pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Proper military etiquette = Immediate excecution sans trial for failure? Even Thrawn did that, it's not just Vader.
Thrawn only did it once correct? I'd say that Vader and Thrawns actions are the exception, have we ever seen any other flag officer exxcute people for incompetance?

Warlord Zsinj. I believe Director Isard also did some nasty shit, even though she wasn't military.

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba · Post by **Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba** » 2005-03-14 10:26pm

I'm continually shocked that you people would vote for a civilisation which murders you for dissent, or just because they're in a bad mood, will turn your world to glass if there are rebels on it, and whose leader plans to suck out your soul over the Federation.

To quote from Starcraft:

"Oh my Gawd... He's whacked."

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-03-14 11:03pm

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:I'm continually shocked that you people would vote for a civilisation which murders you for dissent, or just because they're in a bad mood, will turn your world to glass if there are rebels on it, and whose leader plans to suck out your soul over the Federation.

Rebel lies!

To quote from Starcraft:

"Oh my Gawd... He's whacked."

Ironic, the Terran Confederacy wasn't the most... benevolent of authoritarian states.

To be on-topic, I am not sure TOS UFP was either capitalist or democratic. It seemed to be more TNG Federation-Lite. In fact, according to the TMP novelisation, this is when the 'movement' started! It's not as simple as saying "Evil Commies vs Good Capitalists" as the OP seems to imply. The 'New Humans' movement started while Kirk was still alive. How is it any better?

Furthermore, some people don't choose "Evil Fascist Empire" because they're FASCISTS. They choose them because they're competent. It's not a value judgement, but one based on comparing and contrasting both side's military capabilities. In that regard I still choose "Evil Fascist Empire" because even in terms of capabilities there's a 50/50 chance of win or lose, the Empire edges over based on competence and experience in warmongering.

Which one would I like to live under? NEITHER. TOS Federation doesn't appeal to me anymore than Sith theocracies. In both societies I'm likely to be screwed over by either some Dark Sorceror or Commie Hippies. So I can either get my brain fried by Sith magic or by technobabble brainwashing. Geewhiz, watch me jump up and choose one over the other. They BOTH suck.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-15 06:39am

Stofsk wrote: To be on-topic, I am not sure TOS UFP was either capitalist or democratic. It seemed to be more TNG Federation-Lite. In fact, according to the TMP novelisation, this is when the 'movement' started! It's not as simple as saying "Evil Commies vs Good Capitalists" as the OP seems to imply. The 'New Humans' movement started while Kirk was still alive. How is it any better?

We see corporate activities. Any yes, this 'new men' nonsense is Roddenberry's brainchild. Need I remind you that the Empire will become the New Republic, who are even more inept?

In that regard I still choose "Evil Fascist Empire" because even in terms of capabilities there's a 50/50 chance of win or lose, the Empire edges over based on competence and experience in warmongering.

50-50 also dictates equal competance. Get it, all things are equal?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-15 06:42am

Cpl Kendall wrote:Thrawn only did it once correct? I'd say that Vader and Thrawns actions are the exception, have we ever seen any other flag officer exxcute people for incompetance?

Vader doesn't count as a military example. He was not even in the military, he seemed to be only in overall command. With most of the decisions made by people like Piett. I always viewed him as being there as the Emperors personal rep, just there to make sure things go smoothly.

Admiral Daala did it several times for minor breaches of regulations.
Grand Moff Tarkin did it for someone suggesting the other only got her job because she was fucking him, in a particularly grusome way.
Issard of course.

There is no evidence to suggest that this is abnormal, indeed, the first case it is suggested that the regulations are pro-summary-excection. In this respect, being in the Imperial navy would be worse than being in a 1700s navy.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-03-15 06:54am

NecronLord wrote:
Stofsk wrote:To be on-topic, I am not sure TOS UFP was either capitalist or democratic. It seemed to be more TNG Federation-Lite. In fact, according to the TMP novelisation, this is when the 'movement' started! It's not as simple as saying "Evil Commies vs Good Capitalists" as the OP seems to imply. The 'New Humans' movement started while Kirk was still alive. How is it any better?
We see corporate activities. Any yes, this 'new men' nonsense is Roddenberry's brainchild. Need I remind you that the Empire will become the New Republic, who are even more inept?

It appears I have to remind you that the Empire actually turns into the Imperial Remnant, which although small was at least competent. It seemed to take the good from the empire and leave off the bad.

The New Republic is what the RA turned into.

In that regard I still choose "Evil Fascist Empire" because even in terms of capabilities there's a 50/50 chance of win or lose, the Empire edges over based on competence and experience in warmongering.
50-50 also dictates equal competance. Get it, all things are equal?

Then what is the OP arguing? If there is an 'equal 50/50' chance then TOS federation becomes something wildly different from what it was. So... what's the point? What is being argued here? Who do I want to win? Who the fuck cares about my subjective feelings on one side or the other? Because that's what this whole argument boils down to. "Hmm... I think I'll put $50 on Blue because I like that colour more than Red."

Kane Starkiller · Post by **Kane Starkiller** » 2005-03-15 07:28am

Ok, do any of the people who voted for the Empire live in a former communist/totalitarian state. I mean the main reason for voting against the Federation is the fact the empire has "cool wedge shaped star destroyers". Do you have any idea what it's like to live in a totalitarian state. Communist states had money. People in communist states were greedy and communist states had companies. The only thing was that all the companies were in the hands of few selected people.
None of the communist regimes went around blowing up their cities like the empire blew up their own planets. So one day you're walking down the street and next second you're space dust. Why? Because few hundred rebels had a hidden base on your planet. But hey, they have those cool star destroyers.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-03-15 08:56am

I always love these contests, because for the Empire it's "They destroy star systems!!!"

Right, and they did this how many times?

And oh yes, what did that planet do? Oh that's right, it harbored enemies of the State. So either they were going to uproot it or begin military operations. Amazing how people go "The Empire is the evil for destroying a not so innocent world!"

The Empire as a system of government had enormous problems and some real issues, but I'd like at least people get their heads out of their asses and realize which problems these were instead ofdoing what idiots do and go for the sensationlist viewpoint.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-15 09:04am

Stofsk wrote: It appears I have to remind you that the Empire actually turns into the Imperial Remnant, which although small was at least competent. It seemed to take the good from the empire and leave off the bad.

The New Republic is what the RA turned into.

Incorrect. Well over 99% of the million systems of the Galactic Empire joined the New Republic of the population's free will. Once the Imperial military fell apart, they flocked to the New Republic. Thus, the people, ships, places and misc items that made up the Empire turned into the New Republic. It's like the Russian Imperial State becoming the USSR. Sure, not the same leaders, but a governmental change.

Then what is the OP arguing? If there is an 'equal 50/50' chance then TOS federation becomes something wildly different from what it was. So... what's the point? What is being argued here? Who do I want to win? Who the fuck cares about my subjective feelings on one side or the other? Because that's what this whole argument boils down to. "Hmm... I think I'll put $50 on Blue because I like that colour more than Red."

Simple, if there's a fifty fifty chance of them winning, there is a fifty fifty chance of them winning. However this is achieved, be it the reformed Daleks from Dr Who suddenly appearing and joining the Federation, or simple upscaling of federation firepower and numbers, it is still a case of heads the Empire wins, tails the Federation wins.

Here's a suggestion. You don't like what is essentially a poll on who people like more, stay the fuck out of threads that are obviously not intended to be an argument about the feasability of a Federation victory.

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Who would you root for redux