Who would you root for redux

[NecronLord]

And oh yes, what did that planet do? Oh that's right, it harbored enemies of the State. So either they were going to uproot it or begin military operations. Amazing how people go "The Empire is the evil for destroying a not so innocent world!"

Let's not mention that rooting out the 'terrorists' on Alderann would have been childs play. The Death Star would almost certainly have had enough troops aboard to put a squad inside every home on the planet. The fact that Leia lied, or more correctly, exxaggerated, is hardly a legitimate excuse to kill millions or billions of people.

[Ghost Rider]

And oh yes, what did that planet do? Oh that's right, it harbored enemies of the State. So either they were going to uproot it or begin military operations. Amazing how people go "The Empire is the evil for destroying a not so innocent world!"

Let's not mention that rooting out the 'terrorists' on Alderann would have been childs play. The Death Star would almost certainly have had enough troops aboard to put a squad inside every home on the planet. The fact that Leia lied, or more correctly, exxaggerated, is hardly a legitimate excuse to kill millions or billions of people.

Was it meant to be ebyond an excuse of Tarkin?

And given that Alderaan openly displayed rebellion, they had two choices from a military viewpoint, either spend thousands of men or destroy the planet.

For them the loss of all those lives was a waste when they had a much better means to execute.

[NecronLord]

And given that Alderaan openly displayed rebellion, they had two choices from a military viewpoint, either spend thousands of men or destroy the planet.

Because their consular ship opened fire on a Star Destroyer that was attacking it? Because Alderann raised a shield when a massive moon sized battlestation appeared without warning? I have never heard of the government of Alderann taking action against the Empire.

For them the loss of all those lives was a waste when they had a much better means to execute.

Err. What precisely does that mean? Aren't you forgetting there were no significant levels of weapons on Alderann itself.

[Ghost Rider]

And given that Alderaan openly displayed rebellion, they had two choices from a military viewpoint, either spend thousands of men or destroy the planet.

Because their consular ship opened fire on a Star Destroyer that was attacking it? Because Alderann raised a shield when a massive moon sized battlestation appeared without warning? I have never heard of the government of Alderann taking action against the Empire.

Hey, they raised a shield. They had known terroist connections.

For the Empire, they simply went. Surrender or die. At that point they conspired against the Empire. While they conspired for the correct reason, they got caught. Thus they were guilty in the eyes of the then legitmate government.

For them the loss of all those lives was a waste when they had a much better means to execute.

Err. What precisely does that mean? Aren't you forgetting there were no significant levels of weapons on Alderann itself.

Right, because all planets have that level of shielding.

What was it there for...pirates?

[NecronLord]

Let's see what the Databank has to say on the matter.

A peaceful world, Alderaan was bereft of weaponry in an era of galactic strife. It was not without spirit, however. Alderaan was one of the earliest supporters of the Alliance to Restore the Republic, though its officials prudently kept all ties to the Rebellion covert.

The planet had no weapons or military force, but it wasn't always so. During the Clone Wars, violence and warfare almost destroyed Alderaan. As a result, Viceroy and First Chairman Bail Organa outlawed all weapons, and declared a state of peace. This period of regrowth was spectacular, and Alderaan was renowned for its beauty, hailed as the "Bright Center of the Universe."

Thousands of stormtrooper lives lost in invading Alderann? What from? Inadequate toilet facilites?

[NecronLord]

It was a core system. Yes. Almost all Core systems did have that level of shielding. A shield has no offensive properties whatsoever. It is not a weapon. Leia was indeed telling the truth when she said they had no weapons. The destruction of Alderann is quite simply an evil atrocity, there is no way around it. The fact that the Empire had plenty of other planets doesn't make their actions any less evil.

And yes, it could well be there for pirates. I don't need to point out that pirates have been known to get their hands on BDZ capable fleets.

[Ghost Rider]

Let's see what the Databank has to say on the matter.

A peaceful world, Alderaan was bereft of weaponry in an era of galactic strife. It was not without spirit, however. Alderaan was one of the earliest supporters of the Alliance to Restore the Republic, though its officials prudently kept all ties to the Rebellion covert.

The planet had no weapons or military force, but it wasn't always so. During the Clone Wars, violence and warfare almost destroyed Alderaan. As a result, Viceroy and First Chairman Bail Organa outlawed all weapons, and declared a state of peace. This period of regrowth was spectacular, and Alderaan was renowned for its beauty, hailed as the "Bright Center of the Universe."

Thousands of stormtrooper lives lost in invading Alderann? What from? Inadequate toilet facilites?

So you're saying that Alderaan had only a shield, and no standing army?

Like I ask again, what was it there for...Pirates.

[Ghost Rider]

And just as note, they did provide gunships, they have shown throughout to have given the Rebellion armament.

So you're saying past that shield there's no army what so ever, and the Empire should just start going "Okay Alderaan...you tried to give plans of a military weapon to a hostile power. Lower your shield and gives us the dissendents, and oh yeah...your royal family is under arrest. If you disobey...we'll starve your sorry asses!"

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

OK, now Ghost Rider is arguing that using the Death Star to kill billions of people on Alderaan was the right thing to do.

Striderteen believes that a summary execution for failure is the right thing to do.

I believe I now understand RSA's viewpoint.

[NecronLord]

So you're saying that Alderaan had only a shield, and no standing army?

No. The Star Wars Canon says that. I am simply repeating what it says.

Like I ask again, what was it there for...Pirates.

Aside from the fact that pirates in the Star Wars universe have been known to be able to destroy all life on worlds if they found profit in it, need I remind you of the Hutts? Or perhaps the Black Sun? They also have large corparations to worry about. After the whole Naboo affair, in episode one would you want to be so open to an invasion by a jumped up Truckers Union? Then there's the fact that Alderann fought in the Clone Wars, and the Shield System may well have been installed at that time.

[Kane Starkiller]

I always love these contests, because for the Empire it's "They destroy star systems!!!"

Right, and they did this how many times?

They only killed millions of innocent children once. Wow I guess everything is OK!

Amazing how people go "The Empire is the evil for destroying a not so innocent world!"

This worlds only "crime" is that it did not support a totalitarian regime. I guess my country is "guilty" of the same crime when it decied to secede from Yugoslavia.

[NecronLord]

So you're saying past that shield

No. The canonical star wars database says that. The film says that. The entire EU says that. The fact that Leia was a bona fide rebel, in a rebel ship, doesn't change the fact that Alderann had no arms on the planet.

More to the point, they don't need to starve them. The DS carries enough turbolasers to batter down any shield, and enough troops to entirely replace the planet's population if they wanted to. They can simply walk in and arrest Bail Organa. What's he going to do? Shoot them? With what? There are no guns on Alderann. This is canon.

[Ghost Rider]

So you're saying that Alderaan had only a shield, and no standing army?

No. The Star Wars Canon says that. I am simply repeating what it says.

Like I ask again, what was it there for...Pirates.

Aside from the fact that pirates in the Star Wars universe have been known to be able to destroy all life on worlds if they found profit in it, need I remind you of the Hutts? Or perhaps the Black Sun? They also have large corparations to worry about. After the whole Naboo affair, in episode one would you want to be so open to an invasion by a jumped up Truckers Union? Then there's the fact that Alderann fought in the Clone Wars, and the Shield System may well have been installed at that time.

So get past the shield and thus BAM

So if if you want to follow that...fine. It still does not dismiss the point either way, they were going to scorch the planet and the leaders did commit an act of treason.

So would it have been better, if they went it, arrested the royal family, hunted ever dissdent and gone "Sorry to bother you guys, routine inspection?"

And Amobea...if you're going to be an assgrabbing me-tooer. Understand that they conspired against the current government. Are you saying they should've go "oopsie...our mistake...you commited an act of treason...we'll fine you two hundred credits."?

If you don't have an arguement shut the fuck up.

[NecronLord]

So would it have been better, if they went it, arrested the royal family, hunted ever dissdent and gone "Sorry to bother you guys, routine inspection?"

Fucking right it would have been. Are you saying that it was better to just kill every innocent on the planet because Tarkin wanted to make a demonstration?

Hell, they might have even restored some of their flagging popularity if they'd treated Alderann in such a reasonable manner, instead of blowing it up.

[Ghost Rider]

So you're saying past that shield

No. The canonical star wars database says that. The film says that. The entire EU says that. The fact that Leia was a bona fide rebel, in a rebel ship, doesn't change the fact that Alderann had no arms on the planet.

More to the point, they don't need to starve them. The DS carries enough turbolasers to batter down any shield, and enough troops to entirely replace the planet's population if they wanted to. They can simply walk in and arrest Bail Organa. What's he going to do? Shoot them? With what? There are no guns on Alderann. This is canon.

Right, and ummm...so because it say berfet of weapons, you leap to "They have no guns!"

So ...let's not even go to that thought, because if you don't see the leap of logic there.

And so, it's okay to bombard a world...and leave it helpless.

So we're left with two choices again. They either make an example of all traitors or they make a slightly lesser example of all traitors.

[Ghost Rider]

So would it have been better, if they went it, arrested the royal family, hunted ever dissdent and gone "Sorry to bother you guys, routine inspection?"

Fucking right it would have been. Are you saying that it was better to just kill every innocent on the planet because Tarkin wanted to make a demonstration?

Because it was meant as an example.

To tell everyone in the galaxy who has the right and the might. And what happens when you commit treason. Was it humane? No. Was it even clear thinking to any sort of diplomatic or good way...hardly.

But it was a way to tell everyone, you betray our military secrets, we destroy your planet. End of story.

[Ghost Rider]

In the end, tarkin handled it in the way he believed it to be best and for the most part, it was wrong. Amazing how that also escapes most. The civilians under the rule of the Empire did not go "Oh well". Some of the military was disgusted.

But Palpatine and his inner court approved, and unless I'm mistaken they were all quite evil.

But does this paint the Entire Empire as the uniformly bad guys?

Guess I should go the ST route and start going "Some of them are bad...thus all are the same!!!"

[NecronLord]

Right, and ummm...so because it say berfet of weapons, you leap to "They have no guns!"

The planet had no weapons or military force,

The fact that this is a stupid concept doesn't change the fact that it is canon. There's a whole pile of daft things in Star Wars, this is another. It doesn't change the fact that this is canon, and thus, true of the Star Wars universe. Alderann had no weapons or military force. Guns and solidiers are both. It lacked them.

So we're left with two choices again. They either make an example of all traitors or they make a slightly lesser example of all traitors.

Yeah. Remind me again, how is killing a few million innocent people because you want a more dramatic demonstration of power and contempt an act that is not inherently evil? The Empire are the fucking bad guys. The entire point of the Alderann scene is to drive that home with a fucking sledgehammer.

[NecronLord]

In the end, tarkin handled it in the way he believed it to be best and for the most part, it was wrong. Amazing how that also escapes most. The civilians under the rule of the Empire did not go "Oh well". Some of the military was disgusted.

But Palpatine and his inner court approved, and unless I'm mistaken they were all quite evil.

But does this paint the Entire Empire as the uniformly bad guys?

Guess I should go the ST route and start going "Some of them are bad...thus all are the same!!!"

Strawman. I am not claiming there are no good Imperials. I am claiming that the genocide of Alderann is an evil act. The regime that sponsored it is an evil regime because of this approval. Concession Accepted.

[Ghost Rider]

Ah, yes...so I'll restate it again. It was...who's choice again. It was Tarkin by Proxy of the Emperor.

Both rather evil men.

But this must mean that the entire Empire is uniformly evil because of the example of two men in power.

So when I see Starfleet do some prety underhanded shit...I guess I should follow that slippery slope and go "They are all evil, because their leaders are!!!"

And given they have Alderaan Gunships in CANON. Guess that means they had no guns...or the RoTJ novel just blowing hot air?

[Ghost Rider]

In the end, tarkin handled it in the way he believed it to be best and for the most part, it was wrong. Amazing how that also escapes most. The civilians under the rule of the Empire did not go "Oh well". Some of the military was disgusted.

But Palpatine and his inner court approved, and unless I'm mistaken they were all quite evil.

But does this paint the Entire Empire as the uniformly bad guys?

Guess I should go the ST route and start going "Some of them are bad...thus all are the same!!!"

Strawman. I am not claiming there are no good Imperials. I am claiming that the genocide of Alderann is an evil act. The regime that sponsored it is an evil regime because of this approval. Concession Accepted.

Amazing I also said waaaaaaaaaaaaaay up there.

Was it meant to be ebyond an excuse of Tarkin?

To which you starteed this whole thing, because when I first stated

And oh yes, what did that planet do? Oh that's right, it harbored enemies of the State. So either they were going to uproot it or begin military operations. Amazing how people go "The Empire is the evil for destroying a not so innocent world!"

And you responded with

Let's not mention that rooting out the 'terrorists' on Alderann would have been childs play. The Death Star would almost certainly have had enough troops aboard to put a squad inside every home on the planet. The fact that Leia lied, or more correctly, exxaggerated, is hardly a legitimate excuse to kill millions or billions of people.

So, did I not say in the end...it was TARKIN who did the act and my problem is people PAINT the EMPIRE as EVIL.

Forgot Tarkin was the Empire.

Gee, I'll give you that much...ten posts and we establish Tarkin is evil.

Still doesn't change the fact I said in the beginning people use the Death Star incident, much like Vader as a broad stroke.

[Ghost Rider]

The Empire as a system of government had enormous problems and some real issues, but I'd like at least people get their heads out of their asses and realize which problems these were instead ofdoing what idiots do and go for the sensationlist viewpoint.

Oh wait, I did. Gee thanks Necron for going 10 posts of what I already said...damn you put me in my place.

[NecronLord]

Ah, yes...so I'll restate it again. It was...who's choice again. It was Tarkin by Proxy of the Emperor.

Both rather evil men.

But this must mean that the entire Empire is uniformly evil because of the example of two men in power.

Guess what. The Empire is the personal dictatorship of Palpatine. It is predicated entirely on his will. If he is evil, the organisation he leads, which follows doctrines approved by him, is also evil. It doesn't matter that some of the people in the Empire weren't so bad. They were still serving a regime that considers genocide an acceptable means of generating respect, and that is ruled by fear and opression. This regime is evil. For fuck's sake, what part of "THE EVIL GALACTIC EMPIRE" in the opening crawl missed you?

So when I see Starfleet do some prety underhanded shit...I guess I should follow that slippery slope and go "They are all evil, because their leaders are!!!"

Err. I've already argued that the TNG+ Federation is an evil little regime too.

And given they have Alderaan Gunships in CANON. Guess that means they had no guns...or the RoTJ novel just blowing hot air?

Aside from the fact that RoTJ is many years later, and that Alderanian Expats seeking vengance, and thus creating gunships, is quite understandable, let's point out that these Gunships were not around when the Death Star attacked. The people on the surface were still innocent, regardless of some people from Alderann being rebels.

[NecronLord]

Oh wait, I did. Gee thanks Necron for going 10 posts of what I already said...damn you put me in my place.

Piss off. You claim that using genocide of innocent people at the drop of a hat to achieve it's ends is not a problem with the Empire. Guess what, fucktard, it is.

[Ghost Rider]

Wow, so because the leader is evil, the organization is by default evil. You even see how much of a slippery slope that is to even begin with?

Do you even want to replace Palpatine and any historical term and see how utterly fucking dumb that is?

I mean and damn...I even said...never mind. If you aren't going to read the first post that all this started on and go directly into the argument piece, because how dare I say "A few sensationalist views does not make the entire history of an organization", I gues it's pretty moot.