Who would you root for redux

[NecronLord]

To quote:

And oh yes, what did that planet do? Oh that's right, it harbored enemies of the State. So either they were going to uproot it or begin military operations. Amazing how people go "The Empire is the evil for destroying a not so innocent world!"

[Ghost Rider]

Oh wait, I did. Gee thanks Necron for going 10 posts of what I already said...damn you put me in my place.

Piss off. You claim that using genocide of innocent people at the drop of a hat to achieve it's ends is not a problem with the Empire. Guess what, fucktard, it is.

Ah, so you want to scream and stamp because I indicated in my first post the Empire is not exactly rosy perfect but would like to see something more then the actions of a few leaders dictate the organization.

Guess I shouldn't view such things in such large broad strokes.

[Ghost Rider]

To quote:

And oh yes, what did that planet do? Oh that's right, it harbored enemies of the State. So either they were going to uproot it or begin military operations. Amazing how people go "The Empire is the evil for destroying a not so innocent world!"

And to quote because you snipped it many times.

The Empire as a system of government had enormous problems and some real issues, but I'd like at least people get their heads out of their asses and realize which problems these were instead ofdoing what idiots do and go for the sensationlist viewpoint.

[NecronLord]

Wow, so because the leader is evil, the organization is by default evil. You even see how much of a slippery slope that is to even begin with?

Do you even want to replace Palpatine and any historical term and see how utterly fucking dumb that is?

I mean and damn...I even said...never mind. If you aren't going to read the first post that all this started on and go directly into the argument piece, because how dare I say "A few sensationalist views does not make the entire history of an organization", I gues it's pretty moot.

Goal of the Galactic Empire: Serve the Will of Emperor Palpatine.
Will of Emperor Palpatine: Evil.

Guess what 'tard, this isn't reality. The Empire really is cliche evil. It has no redeeming features, institutes policies that are entirely evil, and opresses people left right and centre. It isn't a real organisation. It is an evil antagonist in a space opera.

[NecronLord]

Ah, so you want to scream and stamp because I indicated in my first post the Empire is not exactly rosy perfect but would like to see something more then the actions of a few leaders dictate the organization.

Guess I shouldn't view such things in such large broad strokes.

The EU is full of such minor details of Imperial Brutality. It is not a real organisation, it is fantasy bad guys. For this reason, you will find very few to no good acts from the Empire. This is unrealistic, yes, but it also the truth of Star Wars. You are essentially arguing that what we have seen is unrepresentative of the Empire because such an evil organisation is unrealistic. Hard Cheese. There is no good side to the Empire.

[Ghost Rider]

Wow, so because the leader is evil, the organization is by default evil. You even see how much of a slippery slope that is to even begin with?

Do you even want to replace Palpatine and any historical term and see how utterly fucking dumb that is?

I mean and damn...I even said...never mind. If you aren't going to read the first post that all this started on and go directly into the argument piece, because how dare I say "A few sensationalist views does not make the entire history of an organization", I gues it's pretty moot.

Goal of the Galactic Empire: Serve the Will of Emperor Palpatine.
Will of Emperor Palpatine: Evil.

Guess what 'tard, this isn't reality. The Empire really is cliche evil. It has no redeeming features, institutes policies that are entirely evil, and opresses people left right and centre. It isn't a real organisation. It is an evil antagonist in a space opera.

Gee, and because we are analyzing this, I should go by the will of writer's intent, and go simply by that thought?

Damn, guess that in the end makes all of this right, and in fact any poll of asking which place would live under pointless.

So in the end, any poll from here on, that is has anything about which government is better in all of Star Wars, Star Trek and versus is deemed moot by Necronlord, because it's space opera, thus we are all retards to dare question the will of the writers.

Or are you saying this whole little bit between us has gotten you to the point where we just throw out any sort of dialogue of the good and bad of any organization?

[NecronLord]

Go on then. Where is your evidence for the good of the Empire? Where are its redeeming features? Right, every argument for so called redeeming features of the Empire I've ever seen consists of either "The Empire is more efficient than the Old Republic was at its fall" or "It could be a lot worse, like $organisation."

If you actually have any evidence for acts that even come close to balacing the evil of the Empire, I ask you to come forth with them.

[Ghost Rider]

To the eyes of the average citizen?

They ended the Clone wars. For the most part it took the creation of the Death Star for the ol geezer to actually proclaim the disbanding of the Senate, thus for about 25-30 years the New Order was merely the Old Republic with a standing army.

And you still gloss over that I said it had major problems, somewhere this translate that I advocate every choice they ever made, and claim that Tarkin made the right choice. In the end, I still stand by my statement that the Empire was a clusterfuck, but I despise the thought of using sentaionlism as the way to go "They are the eval!!!".

[NecronLord]

They ended the Clone wars.

Err. The New Republic was proclaimed after the destruction of the Seperatists.

For the most part it took the creation of the Death Star for the ol geezer to actually proclaim the disbanding of the Senate, thus for about 25-30 years the New Order was merely the Old Republic with a standing army.

And some massive amounts of corruption (See Ozzel) and opression.

And you still gloss over that I said it had major problems, somewhere this translate that I advocate every choice they ever made, and claim that Tarkin made the right choice. In the end, I still stand by my statement that the Empire was a clusterfuck, but I despise the thought of using sentaionlism as the way to go "They are the eval!!!".

Quite frankly, they instituted policies which were evil, had an ultimate goal that was evil (Palpatine eating everyone's souls or some nonsense like that) and appointed men who were evil to high office because of their evil.

I can't think of a more jigsaw like fit for the profile of 'an evil regime' can you?

[Ghost Rider]

As I said, it's fucked up. But at least you are doing something now, that I would like to see more of.

Not use one giant broad example and go "It's eval!" because I could do that with the heroes. In the end...which would I pick?

The one that would allow my freedoms, which I cannot honestly say which is much better. Most of what we saw of the UFP is their military arm, and the same goes for the New Order...except for a few brief excerpts of conflict.

In the end, rooting for one or the other depends a lot for me what quality of life...beside being in the gunsights.

[NecronLord]

In the end, rooting for one or the other depends a lot for me what quality of life...beside being in the gunsights.

There is too little data on the middle classes of the Empire to honestly say what the quality of life is like. Though of course, if Palpy gets his way, it's only a matter of time before your mind gets sucked out through a straw.

[Ghost Rider]

In the end, rooting for one or the other depends a lot for me what quality of life...beside being in the gunsights.

There is too little data on the middle classes of the Empire to honestly say what the quality of life is like. Though of course, if Palpy gets his way, it's only a matter of time before your mind gets sucked out through a straw.

Something I wish they did more of is show the quality of life in either universe, in some of the sourcebooks and such not. Movie would be too bulky, and for shows...I don't want Friends in Space.

Half the times for SW it gives the decent appearance that purchasing a ship is basically purchasing a large car really. So it would be the same as living in say North America...if you have enough you can plant yourself elsewhere.

For ST, during the TOS era at least there appeared to be private vendors for leaving the UFP. As for commie leanings, I really never saw as much of that. The TMP leaned towards it, but eh.

As for Palpy strawing me, yeah, be a problem...but by that time, apparently I'll be living in some bizarre Warholesque house, and the skies will be purple. Personally he'd have to be sucking my soul to make me forget that level of insanity.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

It's not writer's intent if all evidence points to almost every Imperial with a degree of power being evil, GR.

Stormtroopers- Massacre Jawas, Uncle Lars, Aunt Beru for really no good reason. The same thing happens over and over and over and over and over and over in the novels.

Commanders:

Vader- Murders at the drop of a hat.

Tarkin- Blows up a world as a demonstration.

Daala- Murders people at the drop of a hat

Isaard- Murders people at the drop of a hat, launched a virus or something.

Thrawn- STILL murders people for incompetence. This must be standard procedure.

Pallaeon- Not really evil, but nothing good.

Emperor- Plans to suck out everyone's soul to become an evil god.

Am I missing anything?

[Lone_Prodigy]

Pallaeon- Not really evil, but nothing good.

You mean the guy that singlehandedly instituted peace between the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant, while almost all of the remaining Moffs supported continued warfare? The guy who wanted peace?

[Junghalli]

To me somebody saying they'd like to live in the Empire is like them saying they'd like to live in Nazi Germany or the Domination of Draka. I just don't get it at all.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

And Pallaeon's armistice offer had nothing to do with the Imperial Remnant having only 200 SDs in 8 sectors? Oh yes, I'm sure he would have also pursued peace if the Empire controlled 90% of the Galaxy...

[Ghost Rider]

Wow, it took nearly 15 post of Necron and me going back and forth and still people didn't get what I said.

Let's see if I can put in smaller words.

I said the Empire is fucked up, but I want people to use real examples.

I'll say it again...EXAMPLES.

Screaming Death Star, is just as bullshit as going "STAR TREK 6!!!!!!!!!"

Anderson's form of debating is just that...pick an example, never put anything else and stick by it until the cows come home.

Gee, and I wonder what that's considered.

[acesand8s]

I said the Empire is fucked up, but I want people to use real examples.

The Empire advocates slavery. The obvious example of this are the Wookies. Other slave races include the Talz and the Mon Calamari. Another example can be found in the novel The Paradise Snare. It describes the Hutt religious scam on the planet Ylesia, where people are conned into believing that the sound vibrations from Hutt voiceboxes are some sort of religious experience. The participants become addicted to the sounds and are eventually sold into slavery. One destination of these slaves are the brothels of the Imperial Army (similar to the comfort women of the WWII Imperial Japanese Army). One might argue that under the Old Republic slavery existed and was possibly rampant in the fringe sectors (see Episode I). While this is certainly true, the likely explanation for the survival of slavery in the Old Republic is the weakness of the central government. In contrast, the Empire utilized slave labor in an official capacity (Chewbacca was being used as a slave to complete an official building on Coruscant [see the Hutt Gambit]).

The Empire engages in unnecessary, large scale attacks against civilians. Naturally, the Death Star provides a clear example of this. While Alderean was supporting the Rebellion, possibly even in an official capacity, the destruction of the planet was not necessary. The ROTJ novelization mentions that the Death Star II was to be used against Endor, which would have annihilated if not exterminated a sentient race (Ewoks). The Black Fleet Crisis Trilogy mentions that on one planet the reaction thrusters of heavy warships were used on protestors. Finally, we have the example of Camaas, described in the Hand of Thrawn duology.

The Empire also ruthlessly squashes what most would consider to be legitimate dissent. The massacre of the protestors mentioned in the Black Fleet Crisis is an example. As described in Jedi Search, Kyp's parents were killed, his brother was conscripted, and he was sent to the spice mines of Kessel for his parents' protest of the disbanding of the Imperial Senate. Not only are the dissenters themselves punished, but also their children who did not participate in the activity.

Additionally, these activities do not cease with the death of the Emperor; the rot extends beyond the Empire's founder. Isard engaged in biological warfare against several sentient races (described in the Krytos Trap). Thrawn engages in the kidnapping of days-old infants. He also keeps a race (Noghri) in virtual slavery by pretending to save their world. Finally, Admiral Daala planned to slam a Star Destroyer into the surface of Coruscant in an act of spite.

[Ghost Rider]

Glad to see people doing this. Sorta wondering why people are now going "This is why the Empire is EVAL!!!!" Because obviously my words were, the "It's all New Republic lies...what's wrong with the Empire?"

But hey, let's keep it coming in. I'm having a ball.

[acesand8s]

Glad to see people doing this. Sorta wondering why people are now going "This is why the Empire is EVAL!!!!" Because obviously my words were, the "It's all New Republic lies...what's wrong with the Empire?"

But hey, let's keep it coming in. I'm having a ball.

Perhaps its the two Econ exams I had today talking, but I can't make sense of that statement.

[Ghost Rider]

Glad to see people doing this. Sorta wondering why people are now going "This is why the Empire is EVAL!!!!" Because obviously my words were, the "It's all New Republic lies...what's wrong with the Empire?"

But hey, let's keep it coming in. I'm having a ball.

Perhaps its the two Econ exams I had today talking, but I can't make sense of that statement.

Maybe reading how the whole ball of wax got started would help since this is why me and Necron had a 15 post thing that went nowhere since all I cared was people to use more then "The Alderaan was the eval!!!!!!!"

It's gotten boring and tiring to see people think a single example makes a justification of they are right, and anyone who says otherwise is a moron. If you want to show why, give more then one example. Only fools and morons think one example proves shit.

So like I said in the original post waaaaaay back. I'm glad to see people find EXAMPLES and not use a single end all viewpoint as reasoning.

[acesand8s]

Maybe reading how the whole ball of wax got started would help since this is why me and Necron had a 15 post thing that went nowhere since all I cared was people to use more then "The Alderaan was the eval!!!!!!!"

It's gotten boring and tiring to see people think a single example makes a justification of they are right, and anyone who says otherwise is a moron. If you want to show why, give more then one example. Only fools and morons think one example proves shit.

So like I said in the original post waaaaaay back. I'm glad to see people find EXAMPLES and not use a single end all viewpoint as reasoning.

*Light-bulb clicks* I see. For a second there I thought you were going with the 'EU is all rebel propaganda' argument.

[Darth Lucifer]

Empire...just so I can see what happens when the Emperor carries out his ultimate master plan and consumes every soul in the universe. I'm assumed to be an outisde observer right? If not, let me get back to you on this...

[Enforcer Talen]

Ive always been skeptical of the slavery argument. I mean, we have a universe with ten billiontrillion droids of amazing complexity. why make slaves when droids are cheaper, faster, and more loyal?

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Ive always been skeptical of the slavery argument. I mean, we have a universe with ten billiontrillion droids of amazing complexity. why make slaves when droids are cheaper, faster, and more loyal?

Because sadism is a very good thing to put on an Imperial resume.