Obi-Wan: Exceptionally Powerful Jedi or just average?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-03-15 01:36pm

In a discussion on another forum I've been hearing the claim that Obi-Wan is an exceptionally powerful Jedi (even in the prequel era). Is such a thing ever documented?

Where does this claim come from?

I know we've all heard that Anakin/Vader and Luke are exceptional, and we know that Yoda is very powerful and even Mace Windu is supposed to be really good. But Obi-Wan? I always assumed he was just your run of the mill Jedi. He's famous because of his association with the Skywalkers, but that's it.

Was I wrong?

And how about Qui Gon... is he special too? Are all the Jedi who have speaking parts in the movies supposed to be incredible top-level Jedi?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-15 01:38pm

Exeptionally skilled. He is a Jedi Master after all.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-03-15 02:10pm

I think RotS will determine this one way or the other, however having been on record numerous times as an Obi-Wan fanboi, I say yes. He isn't your run-of-the-mill Jedi.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-03-15 02:22pm

I'm thinking more along the lines of his power level in AOTC, since we still have a couple of months until ROTS.

Is he a "master" then? (Master in the sense of rank, not just that he has a Padawan, because he began training Anakin pretty quickly after becoming a Knight in TPM which seemed rushed anyway).

How common are Masters supposed to be among the 10,000 Jedi (that's another thing I never knew... are those 10,000 including Padawans and Younglings, or is it just Knight level and up)? AOTC seems to imply that when you're a Padawan you're "not a Jedi" (yet).

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-03-15 02:24pm

AotC is a poor indicator of Jedi power as their ability to use the Force was diminishing. I mean I'm pretty sure Obi-Wan showed more kick-assness in TPM than in AotC.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-15 02:30pm

To avoid spoiling you for the RotS trailer....

Obi Wan is a fully ranked member of the Jedi Council. Master in rank, one of the twelve most accomplished Jedi in the Clone wars.

Caius · Post by **Caius** » 2005-03-15 03:31pm

sometimes during AOTC or even the novels like Labyrinth of Evil, I got the feeling that a lot of what could be perceived as Obi-Wans power was just actual luck and or aid from Anakin. Especially when they are always saying how Anakin had to save Obi-Wan or similar. Now I'm not entirely sure if it's just how Anakin sees it that way because he is too cocky or that Obi-Wan himself down plays his "power" since we know he is pretty damn humble most of the time.

He must have done something right though to get to being such a respected jedi and general but it might have been the situations he was put in especially as the jedi master of the chosen one.

Personally I think it could be determined depending on how he beat anakin, if it seemed like anakin caused his own defeat, or he fell by accident or something the I think it was just luck and Obi-Wan might not be that exceptional as the posed question asked. But if Obi-Wan flat out was able to beat Anakin then we probably know he was or at least there was something with Obi-Wan that allowed for him to get where he was.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2005-03-15 05:50pm

Also TRAILER spoilers, not movie spoilers. If you've seen the trailer, then you won't be spoiled by reading this.

Pause the trailer at the right moment, after Bail Organa shouts, and you see the Lava planet, for a split second you'll see Grevious fighting Obi-wan. Grevious took out six Jedi in the Clone Wars cartoon at once, two or three of which were Masters. If Obi-wan can even stand against him for a minute he'd be extremely powerful, and he's obviously fighting Grevious.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2005-03-15 08:38pm

Well, he IS a Master and on the Council.

Though if you're regarding that discussion on TFN about whether Obikenobi can take down Sidious.. I doubt he's that powerful.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2005-03-15 08:44pm

I always preceived Obi Wan as being clever and intuitive. Also he is a very 'wise' individual. While he hasn't shown raw power like Yoda, Dooku, Anakin have, I think his wits and his knowledge of the Force are what gives him the edge. In such, while he may or may not defeat Anakin straight up, I think he can just through his knowledge of the Force and Anakin. Though he didn't show much against Dooku, but then again Dooku seemed to be a touch more powerful.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2005-03-15 08:54pm

Cal Wright wrote:I always preceived Obi Wan as being clever and intuitive. Also he is a very 'wise' individual. While he hasn't shown raw power like Yoda, Dooku, Anakin have, I think his wits and his knowledge of the Force are what gives him the edge. In such, while he may or may not defeat Anakin straight up, I think he can just through his knowledge of the Force and Anakin. Though he didn't show much against Dooku, but then again Dooku seemed to be a touch more powerful.

That's the way I always thought of it. Obi-Wan's power came more from his just general wisdom, trickiness, knowledge of how to use the force than him just being one of the powerhouses. He's definately one of the better jedi though.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-03-15 09:00pm

GL stated in an interview that Anakin is indeed stronger than Obi Wan but Obi Wan has more skill and experience on his side and thats why he is able to defeat Anakin.

I started a similar thread many months ago where I cited exmaples of Obi Wan being the mack daddy of Jedis - defeating Sith lords and remaining sight unseen throughout the Death star despite being conspicously dressed.

Obi Wan is definately da man in the Wars films.

Sam Or I · Post by **Sam Or I** » 2005-03-15 09:53pm

I have started a thread similar to this before. (Well more of a bitching session, about how AOTC made Obi-Wan into an ass clown.) I hope Obi beats Ani in a straight up fight, with no dumb luck on his side. (Like a whale appearing out of now where and randomly falling on Anikin). Minus AOTC, I would put him pretty high up on the rankings, defeating 2 Sith Lords, and surviving an additional one. More than most Jedi will ever face. (Even though Mauls was a cop out win on the writers part. I still hold to the belief that a dying Qui-Gon was able to cloud Mauls mind long enough for Obi to strike.)

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-03-15 10:21pm

That's another important question. Obviously being on the Jedi Council is pretty prestigeous, but is it based on fighting skills?

In TPM Obi-Wan bemoans how Qui Gon would be on the council by now if he wasn't always pissing them off. So apparently there's some politics involved.

This brings up another question incidentally (for another thread).

How long do Jedi stay as Padawans? Because in the trailer they say that Anakin is denied the Master position. If so, that implies he's already a Knight. And does that mean he went from Padawan to Knight in like 12 or 13 years? Assuming ROTS still takes place only a couple of years after AOTC though and spans a period of a year or less. Maybe Anakin is simply exceptional and thus learns fast, like Luke did. But that's interesting. In the early scripts Obi-Wan was going to be in his 30's. So a 30 year old Padawan!

It gets a bit confusing, because of the whole Master (one who trains other Jedi), and "Master" (a rank above Knight) and Master (as in "Master Jedi" a title of respect).

Moonshadow · Post by **Moonshadow** » 2005-03-15 10:36pm

OT:
Caius, you a Hudson Leick fan too? I noticed your avatar as being Callisto.

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2005-03-15 11:26pm

If I recall Obi Wan was rather old for a Padawan. He was supposedly at the cut off in age to become a Padawan when Qui Gon picked him up and started his training.

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2005-03-16 01:39am

In Jedi Apprentice series, it's stated Padawans must be chosen no later than 13 or else they get sent to other Jedi divisions, like farming or being a healer etc.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2005-03-16 05:37am

Well that depends on the evidence your willing to accept. For instance the end notes to Dark Empire describe Obi-Wan with Yoda as being the two greatest jedi to ever live (yes, that was before the introduction of Mace, and the council).

In AOTC Obi was not a Jedi master, he was a knight, according to the novelization, he assumes the rake of Master with his appointment to the Jedi council.

Going by what the EU shows:

1. Repeatedly getting schooled be wanna be sith like Ventess, etc. (I mean come on he took, Maul and actual Sith Lord).

2. Getting beat down by Darth Tyranus. (his freaking padawan had to save him!).

3. Landing in a nest of Gundarks. (again his padawan saves him).

4. Losing to Jango. (hard to imagine Mace or Yoda not being able to handle that.)

6. Beating Darth Maul, with a lucky strike. (Maul owned him the entire time).

7. His duel with Anakin. (no, we haven't seen it yet to ten buck says that it'll be a lucky hit or....Anakin trips and falls off a cliff or something.)

8. Being completely clueless about where his padawan is and what he's doing...for years!

9. Taking credit for sucesses that were made possible by Anakin.

Conculsion Obi-wan's not only not a powerful Jedi, he's a slacker!

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-03-16 05:57am

Praxis wrote:Also TRAILER spoilers, not movie spoilers. If you've seen the trailer, then you won't be spoiled by reading this.

Pause the trailer at the right moment, after Bail Organa shouts, and you see the Lava planet, for a split second you'll see Grevious fighting Obi-wan. Grevious took out six Jedi in the Clone Wars cartoon at once, two or three of which were Masters. If Obi-wan can even stand against him for a minute he'd be extremely powerful, and he's obviously fighting Grevious.

Trailer spoiler ... (is this even necessary?); Yeah but they're going hand to hand, and we'll have to wait to see Grevious armed in order for it to sink in

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-03-16 06:43am

Given what I know of how Obi-Wan defeats Anakin (Episode III Spoiler Thread)- I get huge satisfaction now of watching Vader slice him in half in ANH.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-03-16 06:49am

Vympel wrote:Given what I know of how Obi-Wan defeats Anakin (Episode III Spoiler Thread)- I get huge satisfaction now of watching Vader slice him in half in ANH.

I'm remaining spoiler free on the Anakin vs Obi-Wan duel, so don't ruin it for me.

Caius · Post by **Caius** » 2005-03-16 08:22am

Yeah I'm pretty spoiler free on the fight too. I don't want to ruin what should be imo the best part of the movie.

What about when Obi-Wan faces Vader in ANH? When he turns himself over to the force? We saw yoda and anakin kind of do the same thing when they died. Does that mean Obi-Wan is then on par with those two at that time? Cause it seems he is clearly not turning AOTC maybe to a lesser extent ROTS (without having seen the movie) Or is that the whole force ghost thing like who is and who isn't and shouldn't be brought up really in trying to figure out if Obi-Wan is just the "luckiest" jedi alive?

OT: Moonshadow, yes I am.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-03-16 09:20am

What annoys me is the "the ANH duel was between an old man and a cripple" thing.

1: Darth Vader (post-suit) is not a cripple. He has no trouble moving, jumping, lifting heavy objects (like a grown man by his throat) etc. He has the physique of a body-builder, which is not surprising considering that's exactly what David Prowse was. Let's get real here- the only reason Darth Vader didn't fight in a "prequel" manner is because they didn't have that kind of style or that level of elaborate choreography back then.

2: If Obi-Wan's lack of ... "jazz" in his final duel with Darth Vader is on account of his age, I'm sorry, but how the fuck do you explain Count Dooku/ Darth Tyranus? He is demonstrably older than Obi-Wan Kenobi in ANH, yet he was easily able to best AOTC Kenobi and Anakin, and engage in aerobatics and fast moves while doing it. Again- the only reason Obi-Wan didn't fight in a "prequel" manner is because they didn't have that kind of style or choreography back then.

And just for the fun of it,

3: Luke. He was for all intents and purposes a Jedi Knight in ROTJ, though Yoda gave him the symbolic task of confronting Darth Vader. Now, during his training with Yoda on Dagobah (for which we have no solid source as to its length, unfortunately) and his subsequent adventuring in between TESB and ROTJ- we're supposed to believe that Yoda never taught him any lightsabre fighting forms? How could you possibly groom Luke for a confrontation with a Lord of the Sith without teaching such a skill? And even assuming that he wasn't taught such, surely he could move his lightsabre much faster than he did. Again- the only reason Luke didn't fight in a "prequel" manner is because they didn't have that kind of style or choreography back then.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-03-16 09:22am

Let's not mention that using that kind of style against a real swordsman would get you killed awfully quick. Given that he supposedly killed a huge number of Jedi Knights, I don't see why Vader wouldn't have just developed a more refined style of combat.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-03-16 09:25am

NecronLord wrote:Let's not mention that using that kind of style against a real swordsman would get you killed awfully quick.

You mean the "prequel" style, yeah?

Given that he supposedly killed a huge number of Jedi Knights, I don't see why Vader wouldn't have just developed a more refined style of combat.

As in, going from the style he uses in AOTC and ROTS to what he uses in ANH, TESB and ROTJ?