Does OB1 know that Anakin (Vader)will eventually kill him?

DV8R · Post by **DV8R** » 2005-03-16 01:18pm

I don't know if this was thrown into the movie as a pun, or somekind of foreshadow in plot - or Ob1 can only feel the distant future but can't acutally materialize any visuals in his mind about this - but in Episode II, in the bar scene, after chasing Zam Wessel after the attempted Assassination of Padme

OBI-WAN
Why do I think you are going to be
the death of me?!

ANAKIN
Don't say that Master... You're
the closest thing I have to a
father..

If Ob1 had this feeling in his gut - howcome Yoda or the other Jedi's don't sence it. How come Quigon Jinn never senced it, yet OB1 warns Jinn in episode one "The boy is dangerous, master!".

Possibly deep down he knows but he is morally stuck between his own feelings and his former masters Jinn's final instructions before he died. Perhaps even going as far as knowing Anakin is dangerous but OB1 places 100% trust in Jinn's feelings?

Any thoughts?

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2005-03-16 01:25pm

I'm quite certain that Obi Won's comment was nothing more than a off the cuff remark in regards to Anakin's lack of discipline and constant impulsiveness. The only reason it seemingly has any other meaning is because we know Vader eventually kills Obi Won.

Given that even Master Yoda had trouble seeing the relatively near future, it seems quite silly to think that Obi Won can "sense" an upcoming event a decade or more in the future.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-03-16 01:46pm

I have to agree with Robert on this, remember just before during chase Obi-Wan says to Anakin

I don't mind, flying, but you're doing is suicide

should conclude from this that Anakin was trying to kill himself (or at least that Obi-Wain thinked he was trying) or that it's just Obi-wan way of saying "you must be carefull".

DV8R · Post by **DV8R** » 2005-03-16 02:01pm

Robert Walper wrote:I'm quite certain that Obi Won's comment was nothing more than a off the cuff remark in regards to Anakin's lack of discipline and constant impulsiveness. The only reason it seemingly has any other meaning is because we know Vader eventually kills Obi Won.

Given that even Master Yoda had trouble seeing the relatively near future, it seems quite silly to think that Obi Won can "sense" an upcoming event a decade or more in the future.

Well if the emperor can do it I don't see why Yoda, or Ob1 can't do it.
For example:

In Episode 1 at the end - the emperor says to anikin "We will watch your progress with great interest" - with a huge grin on his face.

Then in ROTJ, the emperor says to Luke "Everything that has transpired here has be done so according to my vision"
There is an obvious link between the two suggesting that the emporer and his huge scheme over 6 movies was all planned.

Keeping this in mind, here is the kicker:
Vader confronts the Emperor and says "My son is with them", the Emporer replies, "Are you sure?", "I have sensed it, my master". "Funny I have not." Which shows that it is possible to see things more clearly - things that you place importance to - things that are the "will of the force".

It was the will of the force to have OB1 be defeated by Vader in order to let Luke continue on his path, make him stronger - this was in Ob1s destiny, im sure he must have felt it in some way even though he didn't visualize it - afterall it was the will of the force to have him loose his own life. not by someone else - but by his own doing. Also the fact that OB1 and Anakin were close, and Anakin saw ob1 as a father (despite problems) there is a connection there that the other Jedi did not. To back up things further, Vader did sence OB1 in Episode4 when the falcon was in the bay on the death star "I sence something, something I havn't felt since..."

Also to further back this argument, in the episodeIII trailer we see OB1 in tears yelling to Anakin, "You were suppose to be the chosen one!" which shows not only in his facial expressions of being concerned, that he took what Jinn said to him by heart this tore him apart inside because Anakin turned - also OB1 loosing a friend - OB1 is torn apart in that one sentence. Which is why I beleive we would never defy Jinns orders - if this wasnt true - OB1 would have slayed Anakin and there would be no Darth-Vader.

DV8R · Post by **DV8R** » 2005-03-16 02:05pm

Lord Revan wrote:I have to agree with Robert on this, remember just before during chase Obi-Wan says to Anakin
I don't mind, flying, but you're doing is suicide
should conclude from this that Anakin was trying to kill himself (or at least that Obi-Wain thinked he was trying) or that it's just Obi-wan way of saying "you must be carefull".

No see that doesnt work for me - in the context of which is was spoken, it was not meant litterally, and exactly waht you said above "be careful". I am not basing my quote simply on the words but the situation around it as well.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-03-16 02:10pm

the Emperor and Vader are irrelevant (as they're Dark side users) and if take context of scene Obi-Wan probaly meant "when you screw up next time, we could both end up dead" or did you forget that Yoda (most powerfull PT) couldn't sence Darth Sidious when he was in same room with him.

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2005-03-16 02:12pm

Lord Revan wrote:the Emperor and Vader are irrelevant (as they're Dark side users) and if take context of scene Obi-Wan probaly meant "when you screw up next time, we could both end up dead" or did you forget that Yoda (most powerfull PT) couldn't sence Darth Sidious when he was in same room with him.

yoda gave palpatine some rather suspicious looks in aotc, he had an inkling something wasn't quite right about him.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-03-16 02:13pm

Lord Revan wrote:the Emperor and Vader are irrelevant (as they're Dark side users) and if take context of scene Obi-Wan probaly meant "when you screw up next time, we could both end up dead" or did you forget that Yoda (most powerfull PT) couldn't sence Darth Sidious when he was in same room with him.

Sorry but what has one to do with the other? I'm not supporting the theory that Obi-Wan knew that Anakin was going to kill him in AotC (although I do believe that at some point between RotS and ANH he possibly did, given the events on the DS), but so what if Yoda couldn't sense Sidious? Anakin and Obi-Wan could still sense what was happening with Padme in the other room, which is a little closer to the scenario discussed.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-03-16 02:17pm

yoda gave palpatine some rather suspicious looks in aotc, he had an inkling something wasn't quite right about him.

spoilerbut he couldn't sence Darth Sidious untill the battle of Corusant, it was probaly suspition of Palpatine not being fully truthfull about why he wanted Jedi to guard Amidala

DV8R · Post by **DV8R** » 2005-03-16 02:26pm

Lord Revan wrote:the Emperor and Vader are irrelevant (as they're Dark side users) and if take context of scene Obi-Wan probaly meant "when you screw up next time, we could both end up dead" or did you forget that Yoda (most powerfull PT) couldn't sence Darth Sidious when he was in same room with him.

I still think because the way he said it - it wasnt jokingly - it was sarcastic - suggesting he does know. And Anakin does reply back "Don't say that master", meaning he did mean it literally. If it wasnt literal Anakin would have chuckled or laughed or grined - but he was dead serious.

ALSO - remember in the beginning of the movie(ROTC):
ANakin
It was her idea... No harm will
come to her. I can sense
everything going on in that room.
Trust me.

OBI-WAN
It's too risky... and your senses
aren't that attuned, young
apprentice.

Akanin
And yours are?

OBI-WAN
Possibly. (very sarcastic)
- More proof OB1 has is better in tuned with the force. There is further proof here:

Anakin
She didn't even recognize me, Jar
Jar. I thought about her every
day since we parted... and she's
forgotten me completely.

JAR JAR
Shesa happy. Happier den mesa
see-en her in longo time.

OBI-WAN
Anakin, you're focusing on the
Negative again. Be mindful of your
thoughts. She was glad to see us.
Now lets check the security here.

-Proof that OB1 can sence things better than Anakin.

Now for the Yoda bit - Yoda says in several references in Episode I and Episode II "The Dark side clouds everything".

This is inacordance to the prophecy which said it would cloud everything. That tidbit can be found in the original movie draft:

MACE WINDU
Why couldn't we see this attack on
the Senator?

Yoda
Masking the future, is this
disturbance in the Force.

MACE WINDU
The prophecy is coming true, the
Dark Side is growing.

Yoda
And only those who have turned to
the Dark Side can sense the
possibilities of the future. Only
going through the Dark Side can we
see.

Dark Side can sense the possibilities of the future. Only going through the Dark Side can we see. Anakin is turning to the Dark side - Ob1 is very close to Anakin it is possible he can feel the future by channeling his feelings through Anakin who in turn is not tuned enbough to see them for himself.

DV8R · Post by **DV8R** » 2005-03-16 02:27pm

Zac Naloen wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:the Emperor and Vader are irrelevant (as they're Dark side users) and if take context of scene Obi-Wan probaly meant "when you screw up next time, we could both end up dead" or did you forget that Yoda (most powerfull PT) couldn't sence Darth Sidious when he was in same room with him.
yoda gave palpatine some rather suspicious looks in aotc, he had an inkling something wasn't quite right about him.

Yup I noticed that too - Yoda feels something but it is blocked by the dark side.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-03-16 02:40pm

remember that Obi-Wan doesn't say/imply that Anakin will kill by his own hand, but that Anakin will do something the cause Obi-Wan's (and probaly Anakin's) death. There's no reason to assume that Obi-Wan meant anything else that Anakin would go somewere with out thinking and get them killed (which nearly happened in the end battle) as Anakin is able keep secrects from Obi-Wan don't thinl that Obi-Wan knows to any degree what will his final fate be.

DV8R · Post by **DV8R** » 2005-03-16 03:08pm

Lord Revan wrote:remember that Obi-Wan doesn't say/imply that Anakin will kill by his own hand, but that Anakin will do something the cause Obi-Wan's (and probaly Anakin's) death. There's no reason to assume that Obi-Wan meant anything else that Anakin would go somewere with out thinking and get them killed (which nearly happened in the end battle) as Anakin is able keep secrects from Obi-Wan don't thinl that Obi-Wan knows to any degree what will his final fate be.

This is true - however going back to out original point he did say "You will be the end of me" He is saying Anakin will kill him. Anakin can only gain control over his feelings once he is seduced by the emperor. Remember in the trailer the Jedi council wants Anakin to report everything that happens in the meetings, and Anakin says thats treason, OB1 says in return "We are at war". At that point Anakin has enough control to hide his thoughts very well, as the emporor does as well. In the trailer OB1 says to Yoda "Who could have done this" when all the Jedi are slayed, the dark side has blocked the Jedis vision powers completly at this point, they Jedi can't sence whats going on As the prophecy has told. How was the prophecy written?, someone using the force forseen it - and this is over centuries not 20 years. It is completly plausable. But like I said Ob1 is in disbeleif and he also takes what Jinn said to him to heart.

We know Jedi and Siths can read minds, how else did Vader know Luke had a sister - his mind dwelled on it. How did the emperor know luke wanted his light saber - his mind dwelled on it - If he didnt dwell on it he would have never known so in turn Anakin better controls his thoughts they no longer deceive him - why do you think Vader doesnt think of his mother? Better control - OB1 becomes clueless.

Luke himself sees the future - he sees his freinds in trouble on cloud city - and goes to help them - yoda closes his eyes and sees the vision as well - why does luke see this? He has a close attachment to his friends (and sister) but most importantly its the will of the force. Much like Little Anakin in Episode I dreamed we would become a Jedi and free the slaves - he was seeing the future, it was the will of the force. Also Anakin looked an Jinn at the dinner table and jinn said "We didn't actually come here to free slaves", Anakin replied "I think you have". There are countless examples of Jedi and siths seeing into the future, there is no reason why Ob1 could not.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-03-16 03:15pm

Zac Naloen wrote:yoda gave palpatine some rather suspicious looks in aotc, he had an inkling something wasn't quite right about him.

That doesn't necessarily mean he senses anything off about him. It could just have to do with the fact that Palpatine constantly behaves like a smarmy little opportunist, and is occasionally quite hamfisted about how he goes into the whole 'I reluctantly accept this power' routine.

Yoda's been around a fair long while, and has seen a great many politicians, enough to have a healthy disdain for them. Especially anybody who assumes supreme power voluntarily and claims that they are doing it strictly out of a sense of duty.

DV8R · Post by **DV8R** » 2005-03-16 03:20pm

Petrosjko wrote:
Zac Naloen wrote:yoda gave palpatine some rather suspicious looks in aotc, he had an inkling something wasn't quite right about him.
That doesn't necessarily mean he senses anything off about him. It could just have to do with the fact that Palpatine constantly behaves like a smarmy little opportunist, and is occasionally quite hamfisted about how he goes into the whole 'I reluctantly accept this power' routine.

Yoda's been around a fair long while, and has seen a great many politicians, enough to have a healthy disdain for them. Especially anybody who assumes supreme power voluntarily and claims that they are doing it strictly out of a sense of duty.

That is true that is a good point - its amazing we all see the same movie - yet we all see or get something different about it. I think bothcases are probably right - perhaps episode III will shed light on this more.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2005-03-16 04:18pm

It was an off-the-cuff remark made by Obi-Wan meant for fans to get a chuckle from. You're looking to deep into it. Seeing into the future, even just a day or two, has always been shown to take extreme concentration and meditation. Obi-Wan would have to have been looking years into the future while walking into a bar to have gained that insight. Didn't happen.

DV8R · Post by **DV8R** » 2005-03-16 07:01pm

Captain Cyran wrote:It was an off-the-cuff remark made by Obi-Wan meant for fans to get a chuckle from. You're looking to deep into it. Seeing into the future, even just a day or two, has always been shown to take extreme concentration and meditation. Obi-Wan would have to have been looking years into the future while walking into a bar to have gained that insight. Didn't happen.

I don't beleive so - there is no proof in the movies to justify that it was a joke, let me explain,

OB1 does make comments jokingly in the movies - here are the examples:

Episode I
As Anakin enter the Nubean ship with Jinn, he makes a remark "Why do I have the feeling we picked up another..."

Epsiode II
Anakin jumps from the speeder, "Excuse me master." OB1 Replies "I hate when he does that"

OB1 kicks Jango off the edge of the deck on Kamino, he says "oh no! Not good!"

Jango in slave I is firing on the Jedi ship - he says "Blasted! This is why I hate Flying"

Okay so whats my point - why do all these jokes have in common?

Notice that none of them are followed directly with a reply - Lucas's style of Jokes is consistant thoughtout the series - the above holds true with even C3PO - when he makes a joke, he is not commented back - that would ruin the effect of the comment - its meant to theatrically sit for a second. This stands true for Han as well. Even when Jar Jar did stupid things "icky icky goo!" no comment directly after.

So again, my quote saying that "why do I have the feeling your going to be the end of me" is directly followed by anakin telling OB1 not to say that - therefore it is not implied as a joke even though it is funny, or ironic even.

Even after the quote Seconds later, OB1 is approched by an alien trying to sell him death sticks - whats the punch line? The aliens says, "I want to go home and rethink my life". If it was meant to be serious it would have been followed by a comment which it isnt such as "death sticks are bad" - as well the alien was almost comical looking to begin with - Antenae on his head - common he looked like a childhood storybook friendly tellytubby. His appearance was funny looking.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-03-16 07:10pm

Okay...you do understand if Obi_Wan knew that Anakin would kill him with that much clarity, why didn't Council go "Oh fuck no...in fact...let's sack that fucker Palpatine as well!"

Literally you are trying to leap to a senseless conclusion on the flimiest of proofs. It's a piece of mindless dialogue for us to laugh at, in universe it's a sigh of exasperation.

Obi Wan never demonstrated nor has any Jedi or Sith such levels of pre-cognition.

And remember Yoda...DISAGREED with the Council. Thus he must've sensed something beyond "Chosen One"

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-03-16 07:11pm

Did you notice there is another common thing about those jokes, you understand them with out any pre knowallage of the saga. Were as that comment isn't funny unless we already KNOW Vader aka Anakin will kill Obi-Wan in the future.

DV8R · Post by **DV8R** » 2005-03-16 07:14pm

Obi-Wan would have to have been looking years into the future while walking into a bar to have gained that insight. Didn't happen.[/i]

Yoda does it all the time - see's into the future - no meditation
Emperor asks Yoda "Do you think it will come to war", Yoda closes his eyes - future hard to see - no meditation
Little Annie did it in Episode one - he forseen he would become a powerful Jedi without meditation
Anikan knew his mother was alive - no meditation
Luke saw his friends in trouble on cloud city - no meditation
The emperor seems to be able to tell the future and we have not seen him meditate.
Leah knew Luke got off the Death Star II - she didnt meditate
Ob1 is shocked when the deathstar destoyed a plant - no mediation there infact he was talking with luke

I can name several others but get my point. Seeing a day into the future a week in the future or even large amounts of time we see this all the time. Some are visions split seconds into the future - how do you think Jedi get "Jedi reflexes" its because if this reason - Jinn makes a comment about this to Anakins mother in Episode I.

Best example luke knew that Jabba would be killed even without consulting Leah, im sure her capture was not part of the plan - but he knew the will of the force - "Last chance Jabba" - He had R2 already fitted with a saber ahead of time - He fights his way out - leah strangles Jabba - all this would have to be known ahead of time - there is no way something that elaborate on that many levels could have been excecuted so seemlessly.

DV8R · Post by **DV8R** » 2005-03-16 07:17pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Okay...you do understand if Obi_Wan knew that Anakin would kill him with that much clarity, why didn't Council go "Oh fuck no...in fact...let's sack that fucker Palpatine as well!

But you see it wasnt a vision, it was a feeling. And Ob1 has said many times your feelings deceive you. Also Jinn instructed Ob1 to train Anakin - he is the chosen one - he would not defy his masters orders no matter what - he simply had a feeling brushed it off - its not like he had the clairvoyance and actually see it happening thats the difference.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-03-16 07:17pm

And it's amazing that none of these precognitive events are YEARS down the road.

In fact that's where your proof has to show that a Jedi has seen down 20 plus years, with crystal clear clarity of what will happen.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2005-03-16 07:27pm

DV8R wrote:Yoda does it all the time - see's into the future - no meditation
Emperor asks Yoda "Do you think it will come to war", Yoda closes his eyes - future hard to see - no meditation

Strongest and most experienced with the force, still had to concentrate, to see maybe a few months into the future.

Little Annie did it in Episode one - he forseen he would become a powerful Jedi without meditation

You're a retard. When I was a kid, I thought I was gonna be the best Paleontologist ever. There's nothing different between my boasting and Anakins.

Anikan knew his mother was alive - no meditation

Kid thinking his mother isn't dead, what a fucking surprise. He ended up being right, but regardless, he WASN'T LOOKING INTO THE FUTURE. Next.

Luke saw his friends in trouble on cloud city - no meditation

Now that is Bullshit. Yoda was sitting right there TELLING him to concentrate and meditate. And even then he probably saw a few days into the future. Again, we're still dealing with some of the most powerful force users, ever.

The emperor seems to be able to tell the future and we have not seen him meditate.

More stupid bullshit. Please don't tell me I need to explain why that argument is dumb. And as for his great seeing into the future "This trap will work perfectly, yep, no problems at all."

Leah knew Luke got off the Death Star II - she didnt meditate

Not a Jedi, still had to think about it, she was focusing about 2,000 km up. Not into the future.

Ob1 is shocked when the deathstar destoyed a plant - no mediation there infact he was talking with luke

NOT SEEING INTO THE FUCKING FUTURE.

I can name several others but get my point. Seeing a day into the future a week in the future or even large amounts of time we see this all the time. Some are visions split seconds into the future - how do you think Jedi get "Jedi reflexes" its because if this reason - Jinn makes a comment about this to Anakins mother in Episode I.

Yeah, I get the point, you're a fucktard who takes things WAY too literally. Seeing into the future has ALWAYS been seen to take concentration, and even then we've only seen it from the most powerful jedi ever seen. And on top of that they can see a few months into the future, tops. You're spewing bullshit from here to Tokyo.

Best example luke knew that Jabba would be killed even without consulting Leah, im sure her capture was not part of the plan - but he knew the will of the force - "Last chance Jabba" - He had R2 already fitted with a saber ahead of time - He fights his way out - leah strangles Jabba - all this would have to be known ahead of time - there is no way something that elaborate on that many levels could have been excecuted so seemlessly.

Just... stop... please. That was not a complicated plan, that was FORETHOUGHT. "Hmm, I'm gonna go to Jabba's Palace, he's gonna be a bastard and capture me" Remember the lines "Don't worry, everything is going according to plan."? Luke went in there knowing Jabba was gonna try to kill him ot because of the force, just because he knew his opponent. Honestly, the fact that you think that was an elaborate plan is just evidense of your dumb fuckery.

DV8R · Post by **DV8R** » 2005-03-16 07:36pm

And remember Yoda...DISAGREED with the Council. Thus he must've sensed something beyond "Chosen One"

Cant argue with that. I was actually thinking the same thing.

DV8R · Post by **DV8R** » 2005-03-16 07:41pm

Literally you are trying to leap to a senseless conclusion on the flimiest of proofs.

Okay this is your opinion I respect that - do you wish to rebutle what I am saying with actual proof from the movie? I dont consider quoting a movie word for word flimiest proofs. Does OB1 or any character say something in opposite that was stated? Im not chewing you out or anything, this is just a discussion I am mearly curious - like I said we all percieve the same movie on different levels - I just want to see how you see it with proof to back it up.