Obi-Wan: Exceptionally Powerful Jedi or just average?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-03-16 09:26am

Vympel wrote:What annoys me is the "the ANH duel was between an old man and a cripple" thing.

1: Darth Vader (post-suit) is not a cripple. He has no trouble moving, jumping, lifting heavy objects (like a grown man by his throat) etc. He has the physique of a body-builder, which is not surprising considering that's exactly what David Prowse is. Let's get real here- the only reason Darth Vader didn't fight in a "prequel" manner is because they didn't have that kind of style or that level of elaborate choreography back then.

Non-SoD. Attempt at in-universe: perhaps the bulk of all those cybernetic devices keeping him alive prevents him from doing acrobatic backflips like his bratty show-off son?

2: If Obi-Wan's lack of ... "jazz" in his final duel with Darth Vader is on account of his age, I'm sorry, but how the fuck do you explain Count Dooku/ Darth Tyranus? He is demonstrably older than Obi-Wan Kenobi in ANH, yet he was easily able to best AOTC Kenobi and Anakin, and engage in aerobatics and fast moves while doing it. Again- the only reason Obi-Wan didn't fight in a "prequel" manner is because they didn't have that kind of style or choreography back then.

Again, non-SoD. I would think Obi-wan merely held back, for whatever reason. He seemed to be on the defensive all throughout that fight. Besides, even Tyranus wasn't all that agile in comparison. And uh, when did Tyranus engage in 'aerobatics'?

I assume you mean acrobatics, yet I don't recall him doing somersaults and dive rolls either.

DV8R · Post by **DV8R** » 2005-03-16 11:11am

Kurgan wrote:How common are Masters supposed to be among the 10,000 Jedi (that's another thing I never knew... are those 10,000 including Padawans and Younglings, or is it just Knight level and up)? AOTC seems to imply that when you're a Padawan you're "not a Jedi" (yet).

I thought "Master" Jedi was refered to only representatives on the Jedi Council. Hense why in the trailer for ROTS, Anakin is shocked when he is not reconized as "Master", and is denied my Windu even though he is part of the Jedi council.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-03-16 11:17am

DV8R wrote:
Kurgan wrote:How common are Masters supposed to be among the 10,000 Jedi (that's another thing I never knew... are those 10,000 including Padawans and Younglings, or is it just Knight level and up)? AOTC seems to imply that when you're a Padawan you're "not a Jedi" (yet).
I thought "Master" Jedi was refered to only representatives on the Jedi Council. Hense why in the trailer for ROTS, Anakin is shocked when he is not reconized as "Master", and is denied my Windu even though he is part of the Jedi council.

I think its fairly obvious from TPM that the Council is not composed of the best masters in the Order but the most politically connected and those not willing to rock the boat. Its the Jedi old boys network where people like Qui Gon are viewed as granola eating marxist rebel wannabes and as such have no place on a Council concerned about maintaining the status quo. QUi Gon might as well be wearing a Che Guevera T-Shirt at the Harvard Yacht Club when he addresses the council.

The irony there is that the Jedi are violating one of their most valued tenets. Anakin said a Jedi cannot have any attachments - hence the no mother thing, no wives, children, etc. Yet the Council is firmly entrenched and thus attached to the past and holding on to tradition. The harder they hold on the more they are going to lose.

DV8R · Post by **DV8R** » 2005-03-16 11:19am

Caius wrote:sometimes during AOTC or even the novels like Labyrinth of Evil, I got the feeling that a lot of what could be perceived as Obi-Wans power was just actual luck and or aid from Anakin. Especially when they are always saying how Anakin had to save Obi-Wan or similar. Now I'm not entirely sure if it's just how Anakin sees it that way because he is too cocky or that Obi-Wan himself down plays his "power" since we know he is pretty damn humble most of the time.

He must have done something right though to get to being such a respected jedi and general but it might have been the situations he was put in especially as the jedi master of the chosen one.

Personally I think it could be determined depending on how he beat anakin, if it seemed like anakin caused his own defeat, or he fell by accident or something the I think it was just luck and Obi-Wan might not be that exceptional as the posed question asked. But if Obi-Wan flat out was able to beat Anakin then we probably know he was or at least there was something with Obi-Wan that allowed for him to get where he was.

From AOTC - Count Dooku vs OB1 - Dooku say to OB1, "Yoda places you in such high esteem", suggesting that he is a powerful Jedi. Afterall, Yoda is the most powerful Jedi at this point in time. Also, Dooku tried to convert OB1 over, "Join me and together we can destroy the sith!". Here is OB1 inprisoned, yet Dooku wants to set a deal with him - why? Dooku knows he is powerful, and he would make an excelent allie. ALSO! in TPM, OB1 says to Jinn "I am glad you think I am ready to take the trials master", Jinn replied "You are a much wiser man than me, I forsee you becoming a powerful Jedi KNIGHT". AND also, in Episode 4, OB1 is seeked out by the princess and is called to help the alliance because of his known powers, he even tells vader, "You can't strike me down, for I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine". And he appears as Force spirit which only Anakin, and Yoda did suggesting he is infact powerful.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-03-16 07:36pm

Stofsk wrote: Non-SoD. Attempt at in-universe: perhaps the bulk of all those cybernetic devices keeping him alive prevents him from doing acrobatic backflips like his bratty show-off son?

Perhaps, but the point is that he's not a "cripple".

Again, non-SoD.

What is? Obi-Wan is younger than Dooku, easily.

I would think Obi-wan merely held back, for whatever reason.

I highly doubt that. There's no reason to hold back, he can kill a Dark Lord of the Sith then and there.

He seemed to be on the defensive all throughout that fight.

Because Vader was going to best him, obviously

"Your powers are weak, old man!"

Besides, even Tyranus wasn't all that agile in comparison. And uh, when did Tyranus engage in 'aerobatics'? I assume you mean acrobatics, yet I don't recall him doing somersaults and dive rolls either.

He does do a somersault, when both he and Yoda leap at each other. He also jumps.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2005-03-16 09:13pm

I thought "Master" Jedi was refered to only representatives on the Jedi Council. Hense why in the trailer for ROTS, Anakin is shocked when he is not reconized as "Master", and is denied my Windu even though he is part of the Jedi council.

According to the ATOC novelization only the members of the Coucil are 'Jedi Masters'. ie masters of the order (like catholic cardinals). Jedi Knights who have padawans assigned to them hold the honorific of Master. While ignorant civilians often call even padawans master.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-03-17 09:11am

Vympel wrote:
Stofsk wrote:He seemed to be on the defensive all throughout that fight.
Because Vader was going to best him, obviously

"Your powers are weak, old man!"

"You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more
powerful than you can possibly imagine."

And lets not forget the first lines;

VADER: I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. We meet again, at last. The
circle is now complete.

VADER: When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the master.

BEN: Only a master of evil, Darth.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2005-03-17 01:47pm

Obi-Wan in ANH is the only time in the whole damned saga that somebody calls Vader by his title rather than his chosen name. Wonder why that is.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2005-03-17 02:47pm

Iceberg wrote:Obi-Wan in ANH is the only time in the whole damned saga that somebody calls Vader by his title rather than his chosen name. Wonder why that is.

Actually in ANH they call him Darth all the time. My theory is that, at first, Darth was a name, not a title, then later Lucas changed it. I dunno what the SoD reason would be though.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-03-17 03:03pm

Captain Cyran wrote:
Iceberg wrote:Obi-Wan in ANH is the only time in the whole damned saga that somebody calls Vader by his title rather than his chosen name. Wonder why that is.
Actually in ANH they call him Darth all the time. My theory is that, at first, Darth was a name, not a title, then later Lucas changed it. I dunno what the SoD reason would be though.

I think Darth bacame a title when the characters of Anakin Skywalker and Vader merged as for SOD it was probaly Obi-Wan way of saying "I Don't care what you have become, you can't win me Sith".

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-03-18 05:22am

Captain Cyran wrote:
Iceberg wrote:Obi-Wan in ANH is the only time in the whole damned saga that somebody calls Vader by his title rather than his chosen name. Wonder why that is.
Actually in ANH they call him Darth all the time.

Actually no, only Obi-Wan. Everyone else refers to him as Lord Vader, or in the case of Tarkin just Vader.

Aki-Wan Hanabi · Post by **Aki-Wan Hanabi** » 2005-03-18 08:30am

Anakin compares Obi-Wan with Mace Windu and Yoda in AOTC, so I think that Obi-Wan is far from average Jedi, and Qui-Gon would not had given the task of training Anakin to any happy-go-lucky jedi wannabe....And in the arena fight Obi-Wan proves his quality many times, he survived the massacre, anyway....

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2005-03-18 11:00am

Crown wrote:
Captain Cyran wrote:
Iceberg wrote:Obi-Wan in ANH is the only time in the whole damned saga that somebody calls Vader by his title rather than his chosen name. Wonder why that is.
Actually in ANH they call him Darth all the time.
Actually no, only Obi-Wan. Everyone else refers to him as Lord Vader, or in the case of Tarkin just Vader.

I thought Tarkin called him Darth as well. Huh, my bad.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-03-18 11:08am

Captain Cyran wrote:
Crown wrote:Actually no, only Obi-Wan. Everyone else refers to him as Lord Vader, or in the case of Tarkin just Vader.
I thought Tarkin called him Darth as well. Huh, my bad.

Don't think so ... which scene?

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2005-03-18 11:22am

Crown wrote:
Captain Cyran wrote:
Crown wrote:Actually no, only Obi-Wan. Everyone else refers to him as Lord Vader, or in the case of Tarkin just Vader.
I thought Tarkin called him Darth as well. Huh, my bad.
Don't think so ... which scene?

I haven't seen ANH in awhile, I'll check today. I think he calls him Darth in the "conference room" scenes.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-03-18 11:32am

Captain Cyran wrote:
Crown wrote:Don't think so ... which scene?
I haven't seen ANH in awhile, I'll check today. I think he calls him Darth in the "conference room" scenes.

Here's the script, which is what I'm checking it up against 'cause I don't have the movie.

Let me know if I'm wrong.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-03-18 06:32pm

Spartan wrote:
I thought "Master" Jedi was refered to only representatives on the Jedi Council. Hense why in the trailer for ROTS, Anakin is shocked when he is not reconized as "Master", and is denied my Windu even though he is part of the Jedi council.
According to the ATOC novelization only the members of the Coucil are 'Jedi Masters'. ie masters of the order (like catholic cardinals). Jedi Knights who have padawans assigned to them hold the honorific of Master. While ignorant civilians often call even padawans master.

Interesting. I guess I forgot that part of the novelisation.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-03-21 04:36pm

Regarding the difference in style between the OT and PT, does anyone remember a really good lightsaber page that was on a domain that was something like www.synicon.au (might be wrong)?

The page has gone down a long time ago, but anyway, they had an analysis of Episode I lightsaber action compared with the OT, and they mentioned that the way Obi-Wan and Vader fight is aplomb to aged kendo masters who are able to beat younger, faster opponents, despite minimizing their expenditure of energy.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-03-21 04:46pm

You're referring to Bob Brown's lightsaber page, which was quite excellent but unfortunately went down. You can still access it via Web Archive, though.

And regarding Dooku and Obi in their old age: Dooku had undoubtedly had the benefit of the best medical care of the Republic as he aged. Obi, on the other hand-- after a fairly stressful life during the Clone Wars, he goes out to the Tatooine desert and lives there for 20-some years. Is it so much surprise that Obi would be a bit creakier in his joints, relatively speaking, than Dooku?