Q vs? Umm? Can anything beat Q?

[Shinova]

It obviously is, but when you debate you have to quantify, and since Q's have never had an upper limit with their abilities it is impossible to use an upper limit or even a reasonable limit. Therefore we must use lower limit.

It is not so far fetched if you read my opening post and realize that writer's intent, supposed to argue that Q is a god because the writer's want him to be, actually argues the complete opposite. Other examples of Trek so-called gods have them using technology, and the message of Trek is that technology solves all problems (whether or not you agree with this message is moot). Therefore even if try to use literary analysis and say that the writers intended Q to be a god with no limits to his powers, with the message of the rest of Trek, Q would probably use technology to stay consistent with the idea that technology somehow one day "ascends" beings to be so-called god-like.

Brian

I thought debates were supposed to be based on what we see actually done on screen, what the characters actually say, combination of both, etc, not what we think the creators of the show actually meant to convey.

[Shinova]

My point is that the pro-technology side isn't convincing me. Find more to support, and maybe I'll be convinced.

[HyperionX]

You guys are a like a pair of whiny children scream about how something didn't go there way. This is ridiculous, and the original point is long forgotten by you two.

Anyways, if you INSIST on lower limit, then just use the lower limit of the SW shield, i.e. they don't work against technology they never saw before and thus are useless against transporters. Now, isn't that fair?

[Batman]

I thought debates were supposed to be based on what we see actually done on screen, what the characters actually say, combination of both, etc, not what we think the creators of the show actually meant to convey.

What pray tell that we ever see done on screen confirms that the Q have innate powers over technology, OR if we've finally solved that shows them defeating Wars defenses?

[Batman]

You guys are a like a pair of whiny children scream about how something didn't go there way. This is ridiculous, and the original point is long forgotten by you two.

The only one behaving like a whiny child here is you.

Anyways, if you INSIST on lower limit, then just use the lower limit of the SW shield, i.e. they don't work against technology they never saw before and thus are useless against transporters. Now, isn't that fair?

NO, fucktard. Because we never saw that happening. Evidence of Trek weapons effortlessly bypassing Wars shields, please.
So, are you going to adress my points anytime soon?

[Shinova]

What pray tell that we ever see done on screen confirms that the Q have innate powers over technology, OR if we've finally solved that shows them defeating Wars defenses?

Nothing, but using writer's intent as evidence of otherwise is taking it far, don't you think.

[brianeyci]

I thought debates were supposed to be based on what we see actually done on screen, what the characters actually say, combination of both, etc, not what we think the creators of the show actually meant to convey.

I was using the "writer's intent" excuse proponents of Q's god abilities use all the time, that he is supposed to be a God, and showing that even with literary analysis Q has limits. If you use the scientific method, Q's limits are already defined by what he did on screen. Either way my point is proven, that the irony is there that the writer's intent excuse isn't actually an excuse at all but supports the Q has limits proposition even if we do agree to use literary analysis.

Brian

[HyperionX]

You guys are a like a pair of whiny children scream about how something didn't go there way. This is ridiculous, and the original point is long forgotten by you two.

The only one behaving like a whiny child here is you.

whine whine whine...

Anyways, if you INSIST on lower limit, then just use the lower limit of the SW shield, i.e. they don't work against technology they never saw before and thus are useless against transporters. Now, isn't that fair?

NO, fucktard. Because we never saw that happening. Evidence of Trek weapons effortlessly bypassing Wars shields, please.
So, are you going to adress my points anytime soon?[/quote]

LOWER limit dumbass...

[Aaron]

You guys are a like a pair of whiny children scream about how something didn't go there way. This is ridiculous, and the original point is long forgotten by you two.

Anyways, if you INSIST on lower limit, then just use the lower limit of the SW shield, i.e. they don't work against technology they never saw before and thus are useless against transporters. Now, isn't that fair?

Aren't we supposed to assume that something will work unless proven otherwise?

[brianeyci]

LOWER limit dumbass...

You don't see the irony in calling us dumbass when you yourself appeal to some sort of undefined upper limit and conclude that the Q can teleport through anything because we haven't seen them being stopped, even though we've seen that Federation shields have an obvious weakness which a transporter can exploit?

Brian

[Batman]

You guys are a like a pair of whiny children scream about how something didn't go there way. This is ridiculous, and the original point is long forgotten by you two.

The only one behaving like a whiny child here is you.

whine whine whine...

I'll take that as a concession.

Anyways, if you INSIST on lower limit, then just use the lower limit of the SW shield, i.e. they don't work against technology they never saw before and thus are useless against transporters. Now, isn't that fair?

NO, fucktard. Because we never saw that happening. Evidence of Trek weapons effortlessly bypassing Wars shields, please.
So, are you going to adress my points anytime soon?

LOWER limit dumbass...

EVIDENCE OF Q TRANSPORTERS WORKING AGAINST NON-FREQUENCY DEPENDANT SHIELDS MILLIONS OF TIMES MORE POWErFUL THAN TREK ONES YOU MORON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[brianeyci]

Let's take another analogy.

A planet-killing device requires X energy to destroy a planet.

It could possibly destroy the same said planet with X + Y energy, Y being positive.

Therefore, it can destroy all planets, regardless of their shield type, because it destroyed one planet and its upper limit is undefined.

Ridiculous. Setting a lower limit is prefectly acceptable and must be followed. If not... wank wank wank wank.

Brian

[HyperionX]

LOWER limit dumbass...

You don't see the irony in calling us dumbass when you yourself appeal to some sort of undefined upper limit and conclude that the Q can teleport through anything because we haven't seen them being stopped, even though we've seen that Federation shields have an obvious weakness which a transporter can exploit?

Brian

Since you refuse to accept that the Q is almost certain better than the LOWER limit by principle of occam's razor, then take then lower limit of both, in case SW don't work either against transporters. Either way it's a lose-lose situation, something you apparently can't seem to accept.

[HyperionX]

The only one behaving like a whiny child here is you.

whine whine whine...

I'll take that as a concession.

I take this as a troll.

EVIDENCE OF Q TRANSPORTERS WORKING AGAINST NON-FREQUENCY DEPENDANT SHIELDS MILLIONS OF TIMES MORE POWErFUL THAN TREK ONES YOU MORON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

^ The troll.

[Praxis]

OK. Lets (is this possible in VS debates?) say no one can see the future just because obviously no matter what you can always avoid death if you know whats going to happen.

And on a side note yeah i wont make anymore posts for a bit. I got excited when i thought of a Q one. BUt the i thought people have probably discussed this a million times before!

The precog is:

a) A vague impression of a possible future,
or
b) A brief glimpse of what is about to happen just before it does.

A happens once in a while, B happens all the time, whenever there is danger.

B means it is impossible to sneak up and knife a Jedi in the back, because he senses the moment you THINK about attacking him.

HOWEVER, if you have a nuke, the Jedi seeing the nuke is going to go off a second before it does isn't gonna do much for him

And if you're in crossfire, even knowing where the shots are going to hit doesn't mean you can block or avoid them ALL.

And when fighting another Jedi, you both read each others minds and see their attacks, which is why Jedi fights take so long.


But it certainly doesn't make them invulnerable.

[Batman]

LOWER limit dumbass...

You don't see the irony in calling us dumbass when you yourself appeal to some sort of undefined upper limit and conclude that the Q can teleport through anything because we haven't seen them being stopped, even though we've seen that Federation shields have an obvious weakness which a transporter can exploit?
Brian

Since you refuse to accept that the Q is almost certain better than the LOWER limit by principle of occam's razor, then take then lower limit of both, in case SW don't work either against transporters. Either way it's a lose-lose situation, something you apparently can't seem to accept.

That's because unlike YOU, Brian actually understands Occam's Razor.
Since have NO evidence of Trek transporters defeating Wars style shields, since you have REPEATEDLY refused to quantify the Q's shield penetration capabilities, the default assumption is lower limits just as Brian did.

[Quadlok]

Couple quick points:

Star Wars shield do not keep their shields up at all times, except for minimum deflectors.

Palpatine is not typically on a ship, but rather in the Imperial Palace. Of course, the Palace itself probably has some sort of permanent shield incorporated into it, not to mention Curascant's two planetary shields which were always on. So not much help for Q.

[brianeyci]

Since you refuse to accept that the Q is almost certain better than the LOWER limit by principle of occam's razor, then take then lower limit of both, in case SW don't work either against transporters. Either way it's a lose-lose situation, something you apparently can't seem to accept.

The only way that "Q is almost certain to be better than the lower limit" is if we accept your proposition that writer's intent is to have Q more powerful than shown on screen. I have already shown that even if we do use literary analysis, writer's intent is not for Q to be god, but to be a being with technology and therefore having limits, meaning this upper limit must be quantified. It is a lose if you use writer's intent, and it is lose if you use scientific method.

You also ignore the point that proper debating style is to use lower limits all the time. If you want to debate with another quantification, like an upper limit, define the variable even loosely. Can you? Then too bad, you can't appeal to a complete unknown. If you define it to be "Q can transport through any shields because he has transported through Federation shields", this is an obvious no-limits fallacy.

Brian

[Batman]

@Brian: He already admitted he's a troll. Don't waste your time.

[brianeyci]

Curascant's two planetary shields which were always on.

By virtue of ships landing taking off from Coruscant, they have to open small holes in the shield which a transporter could possibly exploit. However, I don't believe Palpatine would expose himself to attack. If even a Bounty Hunter's weapon is powerful enough to shatter asteroid fields, there must be some kind of continual protection. We're talking about the average private citizen that can own a weapon that can destroy a city. It would be retarded for an Emperor not to realize that if his palace was not shielded, an insane Bounty Hunter taking off from Courscant could fly over and destroy the palace.

Brian

[HyperionX]

Since you refuse to accept that the Q is almost certain better than the LOWER limit by principle of occam's razor, then take then lower limit of both, in case SW don't work either against transporters. Either way it's a lose-lose situation, something you apparently can't seem to accept.

*sigh* One last time I suppose...

That's because unlike YOU, Brian actually understands Occam's Razor.

All else being equal, the simpliest explanation is the best one.

Since have NO evidence of Trek transporters defeating Wars style shields,

And you have no evidence they can't.

since you have REPEATEDLY refused to quantify the Q's shield penetration capabilities, the default assumption is lower limits just as Brian did.

And if you assume both are at lower limit then SW shields don't do dick against transporters. If you claim that SW shields at anything other than lower limit in this situation then it's final and I'll accept your concession.

[brianeyci]

And if you assume both are at lower limit then SW shields don't do dick against transporters. If you claim that SW shields at anything other than lower limit in this situation then it's final and I'll accept your concession.

That's ridiculous. Wars has particle shielding. Therefore, you cannot even send the matter through (and yes, despite how counter-intuitive that sounds transporters must send the matter there somehow or else things like materializing in a vacuum wouldn't be possible since there's no matter around to reform, so a transporter is not just a replicator that reorganizes matter). Wars also has had subspace technology for 25 thousand years, so if the matter was sent through subspace (which we know is probably untrue since subspace transporters were abandoned as dangerous), Wars shields would likely stop it. Therefore the lower limit is that Wars shields can stop Trek transporters.

Brian

[Batman]

*sigh* One last time I suppose...

That's because unlike YOU, Brian actually understands Occam's Razor.

All else being equal, the simpliest explanation is the best one.

Since have NO evidence of Trek transporters defeating Wars style shields,

And you have no evidence they can't.

I DO NOT NEED ANY YOU IMBECILE. Unless you have evidence of Q transporters defeating shielding regarldess of nature and power.

since you have REPEATEDLY refused to quantify the Q's shield penetration capabilities, the default assumption is lower limits just as Brian did.

And if you assume both are at lower limit then SW shields don't do dick against transporters

Evidence that Wars shields won't affect Trek transporters, when a shitload of natural phenomena does?

. If you claim that SW shields at anything other than lower limit in this situation then it's final and I'll accept your concession.

Thank you for admitting once more that you have no clue what lower limit means in the first place.

[HyperionX]

And if you assume both are at lower limit then SW shields don't do dick against transporters. If you claim that SW shields at anything other than lower limit in this situation then it's final and I'll accept your concession.

That's ridiculous. Wars has particle shielding. Therefore, you cannot even send the matter through (and yes, despite how counter-intuitive that sounds transporters must send the matter there somehow or else things like materializing in a vacuum wouldn't be possible since there's no matter around to reform, so a transporter is not just a replicator that reorganizes matter). Wars also has had subspace technology for 25 thousand years, so if the matter was sent through subspace (which we know is probably untrue since subspace transporters were abandoned as dangerous), Wars shields would likely stop it. Therefore the lower limit is that Wars shields can stop Trek transporters.

Brian

Yet turbolasers go right through... Either something wrong with you're claims or SW shields have holes. Either way, lower limit = don't stop ST transporters.

[brianeyci]

Yet turbolasers go right through... Either something wrong with you're claims or SW shields have holes. Either way, lower limit = don't stop ST transporters.

Shields don't necessarily have to have holes all the time man. Wars can open small holes in shields for turbolasers to shoot through.

Exploiting these small holes is a very dangerous affair. O'Brien mentions that timing for a millisecond hole opening is dangerous in TNG The Wounded. Probably more examples exist that don't necessarily inspire confidence in the ability of Trek to transport through small windows in shields. The window would be very small for a turbolaser shot, and that assumes that the shield doesn't open up right before the turbolaser reaches it to a point where Trek is unable to exploit. Again we have a number, milisecond range, versus an undefined opening in a Wars shield, so you cannot compare the two.

Brian