Q vs? Umm? Can anything beat Q?

[Batman]

Brian

Yet turbolasers go right through... Either something wrong with you're claims or SW shields have holes. Either way, lower limit = don't stop ST transporters.[/quote]
You're getting stupider by the minute.
1. Wars shields canonically block subspace.
2. AFAIK, there's no evidence for Wars shields opening holes in their shields, those shields are merely semipermeable.
3. Those holes need to open for seconds at a time, for a few square meters at a time assuming the worst.
Evidence for Trek hitting this when they regularly miss CV sized ships at infantry gunfighting ranges.

[HyperionX]

Sorry folks, but it's the lower limit argument again. Slightest hint of a hole = transports goes right through. And since brian has pointed out that only milliseconds are needed and that on-screen evidence shows that TL in SW clearly takes more than that to fully fire through, there's more than enough time. And seeing how you've totally forgot about the point of this thread, then I tell ya it doesn't matter if Palpy doesn't quite make it out straight cause the point was to kill him by teleportation. Besides, Q tech has never failed either so its not an issue.

[Batman]

Sorry folks, but it's the lower limit argument again. Slightest hint of a hole = transports goes right through.

As evidenced by-oh wait. Nothing whatsoever in Trek.
I don't take it you're going to adress the points I brought up earlier anytime soon.

And since brian has pointed out that only milliseconds are needed

and that on-screen evidence shows that TL in SW clearly takes more than that to fully fire through,

Evidence, please?
1. I owe an apology to Brianeyci-this MIGHT not have devolved into HOS material (where this is indubitably going to end up) without my involvement. I doubt given HyperionX's moronity, but...
2. I fully support the HOSing of this thread.

[Darth Lucifer]

Indeed...this entire thread has been quite entertaining. I shall await you all there.

[Shroom Man 777]

It would be worth noting that ST transporters have been known to be fucked up by exotic metals and dense materials. And ISD armor is extremely dense, ingrained with gobules of neutronium.

And there has been evidence of firing blasters through shield holes. Droidekas.

[brianeyci]

Sorry folks, but it's the lower limit argument again. Slightest hint of a hole = transports goes right through. And since brian has pointed out that only milliseconds are needed and that on-screen evidence shows that TL in SW clearly takes more than that to fully fire through, there's more than enough time.

Slightest hint of a hole does not prove that transporters can go through. The lower limit is that transporters must be able to achieve a lock on Palpatine. Therefore sensors must be able to locate Palpatine on the ISD, and given that Trek sensors are easily fooled by non-lethal EM radiation, they will not be able to achieve a lock on Palpatine.

And seeing how you've totally forgot about the point of this thread, then I tell ya it doesn't matter if Palpy doesn't quite make it out straight cause the point was to kill him by teleportation.

You cannot start the entanglement process in a random location and hope to snare Palpatine. Sensors must be able to detect Palpatine's lifesigns.

Besides, Q tech has never failed either so its not an issue.

The lower limit is Federation sensors, which will not be able to achieve a lock.

Brian

[HyperionX]

Indeed...this entire thread has been quite entertaining. I shall await you all there.

Yes, this needs to end up in the HOS sooner rather than later.

Slightest hint of a hole does not prove that transporters can go through. The lower limit is that transporters must be able to achieve a lock on Palpatine. Therefore sensors must be able to locate Palpatine on the ISD, and given that Trek sensors are easily fooled by non-lethal EM radiation, they will not be able to achieve a lock on Palpatine.

*BZZZZZT* Sorry, your lower limit rule states that SW won't have enough EM radiation to stop a transporter lock.

You cannot start the entanglement process in a random location and hope to snare Palpatine. Sensors must be able to detect Palpatine's lifesigns.

Q does this easily.

The lower limit is Federation sensors, which will not be able to achieve a lock.

Getting more pathetic by the minute. First of all, entirely for the sake argument, who assume that Q teleportation works exactly as transporters because we never saw another kind of teleportation tech in ST (oh wait! we have: http://stvoy.epguides.info/?ID=445 ) Oh well, let's like an idiot keep on arguing this same point!

Now, we must assume that Q sensors are exactly as bad as federation sensor because of... no reason at all. All the races with superior than Feddie sensors we shall ignore (Borg/Caretaker/Tinman/Prophets/etc.). Sorry, but this debate ended the moment you started using excuses lamer than the transporter excuse. Shall I accept you concession soon?

[Ghost Rider]

I believe when a person goes lower limit they are not restricting anyone, but merely placing the Lowest possible...what's that word...Limit to what a thing can accomplish.

This by no means limits one side, but merely set what the LEAST it can do.

But hey, let's continue with you screaming at them going "They can do more!!!!!!!!!" when they've asked you to prove such.

[brianeyci]

*BZZZZZT* Sorry, your lower limit rule states that SW won't have enough EM radiation to stop a transporter lock.

No. Wars uses EM jamming, and that is canonical.

You cannot start the entanglement process in a random location and hope to snare Palpatine. Sensors must be able to detect Palpatine's lifesigns.

Q does this easily.

That is up to you to prove.

The lower limit is Federation sensors, which will not be able to achieve a lock.

Getting more pathetic by the minute. First of all, entirely for the sake argument, who assume that Q teleportation works exactly as transporters because we never saw another kind of teleportation tech in ST (oh wait! we have: http://stvoy.epguides.info/?ID=445 ) Oh well, let's like an idiot keep on arguing this same point!

The point is, Q beamed onto a Federation starship and therefore exploited the same frequency weakness. If the lower limit is Q is as good as Federation, then since Federation is jammed easily Q will be as well unless you provide evidence contrary.

Now, we must assume that Q sensors are exactly as bad as federation sensor because of... no reason at all. All the races with superior than Feddie sensors we shall ignore (Borg/Caretaker/Tinman/Prophets/etc.). Sorry, but this debate ended the moment you started using excuses lamer than the transporter excuse. Shall I accept you concession soon?

Borg do not have superior sensors. Caretaker do not have superior sensors. Tinman does not have superior sensors. Prophets do not have superior sensors. They are only really powerful entities and you say because Q is powerful he necessarily has to have the same sensor technology, which would not help anyway when we consider none of these sensors were jammed. None of these sensors had to deal with EM jamming. And none of these are relevant, because we are taking Q to be at least as good as Federation, which means Q has at least as good sensors as Federation. Therefore the lower limit is that he will be jammed like Federation sensors.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Why are we basing that Q has at least as good transporter technology as the Federation, and not the Borg, the Prophets, Tinman, or anybody else?

O'BRIEN
The Phoenix is using a high-energy
sensor sweep. It cycles every
five-point-five minutes. Between
those cycles there's a window of
a fiftieth of a second.
(beat)
Trust me. I can get through.
<snip>

O'BRIEN
It's good we're trying this with
another Federation ship. It would
never work with an alien vessel.

Therefore, since Q beamed onto a Federation starship, the absolute lowest possible limit is that he exploited this weakness to beam aboard every five point five minutes. Therefore Q must have at least as good sensors as the Federation to accomplish this.

Brian

[Antares]

Just as some random lurker i find it really interesting and disturbing that people in here conclude that Q might not be able to circumvent SW shields from taking it out by brute force.

In addition sometimes even shields that can stand 10^100J won't protect you against something they weren't designed for. But of course this drifts away to allowing technobabble or assuming things which arent substantiated by visuals of films/episodes.

Estimating Qs abilities by using the interactions to microbes like the federation and using only lower limits because upper limits cannot be found is another quite disturbing thing for me.
One of my main tactical principals would be "never show your full potential ", if i was Q interacting with inferior lifeforms.

I just have one thing in mind when evaluating Qs (shown) powers:
He moved (teleported?) an entire moon without any trackable effects back to a save orbit.

[brianeyci]

Just as some random lurker i find it really interesting and disturbing that people in here conclude that Q might not be able to circumvent SW shields from taking it out by brute force.

Yet, Q has not been shown to take out shields with brute force.

In addition sometimes even shields that can stand 10^100J won't protect you against something they weren't designed for. But of course this drifts away to allowing technobabble or assuming things which arent substantiated by visuals of films/episodes.

Yet, since we're using lower limits for Q's ability, the absolute lowest is that Q is able to exploit this 5 minute weakness in Federation shielding to beam through.

Estimating Qs abilities by using the interactions to microbes like the federation and using only lower limits because upper limits cannot be found is another quite disturbing thing for me.
One of my main tactical principals would be "never show your full potential ", if i was Q interacting with inferior lifeforms.

Or, "never show your weaknesses" would be another explaination which shows why Q never fails. He never allows himself to.

I just have one thing in mind when evaluating Qs (shown) powers:
He moved (teleported?) an entire moon without any trackable effects back to a save orbit.

It wasn't a moon, it was an asteroid and was not near the size or mass of the moon.

Brian

[Assassin X]

You know couldnt the others in the continum kill Q?

<----Is still enjoying this.

Wow! You guys are fun to watch. I havent used my movie pass in days!

So im not sure if anyone heard me or not but maybe i solved it? You know couldnt the others in the continum kill Q?

[Antares]

Well, whatever
However you are right with the moon/asteroid thing. I didnt recall it correctly, since it was about 8-9 years ago when i saw this episode, sorry

[Mad]

So eventually this whole debate sums up to, "because conventional Trek tech can be used to replicate some of the effects Q has show on a smaller scale, therefore Q must use similar technology, only on a grander scale."

Forgive me if I think this is more than just a little far-fetched.

You do realize that an entire TNG episode was dedicated to this very concept, yes? In Devil's Due, Ardra cleverly used technology to pose as a godlike being. Those feats were duplicated by the Enterprise-D and its crew.

It's not far-fetched at all, especially since various advanced races in Trek can already do things that Q has done. Fling a ship across the galaxy? Wasn't that the point of Voyager, that the Caretaker flung Voyager across the galaxy? Teleportation and visual images? The episode Devil's Due took care of that, as have any number of holodeck episodes.

[Quadlok]

So eventually this whole debate sums up to, "because conventional Trek tech can be used to replicate some of the effects Q has show on a smaller scale, therefore Q must use similar technology, only on a grander scale."

Forgive me if I think this is more than just a little far-fetched.

You do realize that an entire TNG episode was dedicated to this very concept, yes? In Devil's Due, Ardra cleverly used technology to pose as a godlike being. Those feats were duplicated by the Enterprise-D and its crew.

It's not far-fetched at all, especially since various advanced races in Trek can already do things that Q has done. Fling a ship across the galaxy? Wasn't that the point of Voyager, that the Caretaker flung Voyager across the galaxy? Teleportation and visual images? The episode Devil's Due took care of that, as have any number of holodeck episodes.

Shouldn't that be taken as an indication that Q is much more advanced? In every other case (Ardra, Trelane, Caretaker, etc) with the possible exception of the Prophets, Organians, and Kes, the crew was always able to figure out how things were being done within hours of being exposed to it. Yet with Q, who has been known for more than a decade, they have absolutely no clue.

[Ghost Rider]

You know couldnt the others in the continum kill Q?

<----Is still enjoying this.

Wow! You guys are fun to watch. I havent used my movie pass in days!

So im not sure if anyone heard me or not but maybe i solved it? You know couldnt the others in the continum kill Q?

Yes, and humans could wield these weapons that can kill Qs?

Your point?

[HyperionX]

Getting more pathetic by the minute. First of all, entirely for the sake argument, who assume that Q teleportation works exactly as transporters because we never saw another kind of teleportation tech in ST (oh wait! we have: http://stvoy.epguides.info/?ID=445 ) Oh well, let's like an idiot keep on arguing this same point!

The point is, Q beamed onto a Federation starship and therefore exploited the same frequency weakness. If the lower limit is Q is as good as Federation, then since Federation is jammed easily Q will be as well unless you provide evidence contrary.

CONCESSION ACCEPTED

[Mad]

Shouldn't that be taken as an indication that Q is much more advanced? In every other case (Ardra, Trelane, Caretaker, etc) with the possible exception of the Prophets, Organians, and Kes, the crew was always able to figure out how things were being done within hours of being exposed to it. Yet with Q, who has been known for more than a decade, they have absolutely no clue.

There's no question that the Q are much more advanced than the Federation. And they cover their tracks very, very well. I didn't disagree with that, nor do I think anyone else is.

[NecronLord]

It wasn't a moon, it was an asteroid and was not near the size or mass of the moon.

Brian

It most certainly was a moon shit for brains. Just because it's not as big as our moon doesn't make it not-a-moon.

[brianeyci]

CONCESSION ACCEPTED

A concession? You lose buddy. Federation sensors are easily jammed by EM. Since Q beamed onto a Federation ship, if we want the lower limit that means that Q needs at least as good sensors as the Federation in order to exploit the 5.5 minute interval weakness in the shields. Therefore his sensors will be limited by EM radiation just like Federation sensors, and your point about Borg, Tinman, and others is irrelevant. If the Federation is limited by non-lethal EM radiation, since Wars has both subspace and EM sensor jamming more potent than the Federation, Q will be stopped if we take the lower limit. Even an X-Wing has a potent jamming suite.

You have no proof that Federation sensors would be able to see through the white noise of Imperial jamming.

You say Tinman, Borg, Prophets, Rar! Rar! without providing evidence that Q has as good sensors as them other than "Q should have as good sensors as them because he is supposed to be more powerful" which is a writer's intent excuse.

I provided evidence that Q sensors must be as good as the Federation's without using writer's intent.

Brian

[brianeyci]

It most certainly was a moon shit for brains. Just because it's not as big as our moon doesn't make it not-a-moon.

When someone thinks of a "moon" they think of something the mass and size of our own moon. Saying the asteroid was a "moon" rather than saying it was an asteroid is dishonest in debating because it implies that Q can move something the size of our moon.

Arguing for the precise definition of moon as a satellite is ridiculous. He did not make clear what size and mass of moon Q moved, so by default it was as if he was saying he moved something the size and mass of our moon.

Brian

[HyperionX]

ROTFL! You are dumbest I've ever got into a debate before and I, until now, have never before saw a person who seriously could not read at grade school level. Please go back to the primary premise of your argument, what I said, your reponse, and my acception of your concession. You'll see where the original premise (Q teleportation = transporters) was shown to be false, hence making everything you say moot. Concession accepted man, thank you and good night.

[Nick Lancaster]

Besides, Q tech has never failed either so its not an issue.

Just an FYI ...

Missing negative case. You have no knowledge of it failing or not, therefore you cannot assert it 'never failed.'

Also, given the episode where Q is 'stripped of his powers and made human,' either he was stripped of his instrumentation (device taken away), deactivated (nanotechnology 'turned off'), or jammed (imposition of other Q). So 'failure' can be an issue, if only a question of another Q's interference.

====

On a side note, with the Voyager episode with Q wishing to commit suicide, if their powers are instrumentation-based, then there's some kind of fail-safe to protect against the stray thought that might put you in harm's way.

[brianeyci]

ROTFL! You are dumbest I've ever got into a debate before and I, until now, have never before saw a person who seriously could not read at grade school level. Please go back to the primary premise of your argument, what I said, your reponse, and my acception of your concession. You'll see where the original premise (Q teleportation = transporters) was shown to be false, hence making everything you say moot. Concession accepted man, thank you and good night.

Wrong. It does not matter if other methods of teleportation exist. You say that Q must have the teleportation methods of these other races without providing any evidence at all. I show that using the lower limit of how Q could breech Federation shields, Q therefore has transporters as least as good as a Galaxy class in TNG The Wounded.

Possibilities
1. Q can beam through all shields.
2. Q can beam through certain types of shields.
3. Q took advantage of the technique of beaming through their own shields like in TNG Relics where the shields stay up and use frequency.
4. Q took advantage of the weakness mentioned in TNG The Wounded where the shields cycle. This may be the same technique as 4 but I am listing it separate.

Therefore, number 4 is the lowest possible limit. In order to do this, the lower limit is that Q has as good transportation technology as the Federation and as good sensors as the Federation to take advantage of this weakness (they had to be able to scan into the Phoenix so O'Brien wouldn't materialize in the middle of a deck).

You want to use the lower limit, the lowest possible limit is that Q is as good as the Federation with his sensors. You have no excuse except writer's intent.

Brian