A (single) Borg(ST) vs Battle Droid(SW).

[Junghalli]

Against the SBD the drone wouldn't last five seconds unless it could assimilate it. I would point out that theoretically it would be much easier to assimilate a droid than to assimilate an organic being. All the drone would have to do was modify the droid's programming (as opposed to having to implant some sort of radio in its brain).
As I remember in one TNG novel they described a tank Borg. It was a kind of (presumably) engineered giant four-legged creature with Borg implants. I know it's not cannon, but that could probably take on an SBD.
Against a regular battle droid I'd probably give it to the drone. Regular droids seem basically equipped for shooting. Drones are probably better melee fighters.
BTW Stark, according to Descent Borg actually do carry hand disrupters (it's possible it was a modification by Lore, but unproven).

This doesn't seem relevant until we can find some examples of fast moving Borg. I know there have to be some. I don't have it on DVD, but in the BOBW p1 where the borg snatch Picard to turn him into Locutus, I think a chick borg teleports behind him and uses her club thingy to stun Picard by raising it to his neck/shoulder area. How quick does she move to do this? Is her arm elevated to any degree also?

The best example of fast-moving Borg I can think of is Descent, but that wasn't normal Borg behavior. I think in FC they moved fairly fast to stop Data.
A Borg chick? How can you possibly tell through that bulky exoskeleton?

[Darth Lucifer]

A Borg chick? How can you possibly tell through that bulky exoskeleton?

I'm going strictly by memory....plus the Borg Queen was in another thread I was in and maybe I'm getting mixed up.

[Robert Walper]

Might I also add that Obi-Wan Kenobi also did a double jumping front kick and took out two battle droids. I know he has force enhanced strength, but all it took was one hit and the droids were toast. (Kick ASS!! )

Force enhanced kick or not, this is yet another example of simple imparted momentum disabling typical battle driods. Force push accomplishes the same thing as well. Perhaps all it would take is a heavy blow by a Borg drone to disable it. A Borg drone in STTNG "Descent" struck Data in the gut and kneeled even him over for a second. Impressive considering when Worf attacked Lore with full force hits to the head, he didn't even faze the andriod (identical to Data).

This doesn't seem relevant until we can find some examples of fast moving Borg. I know there have to be some.

There are. The Borg in STTNG "Descent" were very fast moving. The normal counter is these drones were disconnected from the main Collective (true). However, that's not the point. The point is said drones still had all of their cybernetic components and bulky suits. Yet they could still move very quickly (one even dodged a phaser beam in that episode).

Also, in ST:First Contact, we literately see drones running to encircle Data when he attempts to escape. These drones are part of the normal Collective.

In STVOY "Unimatrix Zero", we see a Borg drone duck a Klingon swinging a Bat'leth weapon, and then backhanding the Klingon to the ground. The drone virtually won that hand to hand combat, but lost when Janeway surprised it and took it out with the dropped Bat'leth. (it should be noted this example took place in the "virtual" world of Unimatrix Zero, so some might dismiss this example on that basis. But given the other examples, there's nothing inconsistent about it).

I don't have it on DVD, but in the BOBW p1 where the borg snatch Picard to turn him into Locutus, I think a chick borg teleports behind him and uses her club thingy to stun Picard by raising it to his neck/shoulder area. How quick does she move to do this? Is her arm elevated to any degree also?

Well, the drone did move relatively quickly, but the act was one more of surprise rather than speed.

It's my assertion the reason drones move slowly at most times is because they prefer to adapt to enemy fire rather than trying to dodge and return it. This is consistent with their mentality of brute force and numbers to counter their enemies. Furthermore, given Borg drones are either recycled (as per Hugh's suggestion in STTNG "I, Borg") or they can be revived up to seventy two hours after clinical death, the "losses" the Borg incur with this mentality could be much lower than some might try to suggest.

[Darth Servo]

I'd also like to add to your post there Silence; for those of you who can recall, Picard when assimilated into Locutus actually gave Data a very impressive run for his money in what was essentially an arm wrestle in the science lab. Not to mention Picard even had a disadvantage there since Data was fighting Picard's extended cybernetic arm which hindered maximum enhanced strength potential.

And yet Talaxan dense musculature proved an advantage to the collective indicating that drone strength comes from the biological parts, not the mechanical ones. This would suggest that Data was simply being careful so as to not injure Picard.

[Robert Walper]

I'd also like to add to your post there Silence; for those of you who can recall, Picard when assimilated into Locutus actually gave Data a very impressive run for his money in what was essentially an arm wrestle in the science lab. Not to mention Picard even had a disadvantage there since Data was fighting Picard's extended cybernetic arm which hindered maximum enhanced strength potential.

And yet Talaxan dense musculature proved an advantage to the collective indicating that drone strength comes from the biological parts, not the mechanical ones. This would suggest that Data was simply being careful so as to not injure Picard.

Unlikely, since Data in the end actually forcibly ripped a piece off of Picard' cybernetic arm.

Furthermore, Talaxian dense musculature is quite likely just a bonus for the artificial strength enhancements. Also, you assume the comment was made is regards to pure strength, rather than perhaps other critieria such as endurance and durability.

I highly doubt Neelix is any match for Tuvok, and Tuvok gets his ass handed to him by a former female drone (Seven).

[Darth Servo]

Unlikely, since Data in the end actually forcibly ripped a piece off of Picard' cybernetic arm.

There is no evidence the arm was "forcibly ripped". Data may have just figured out how to detach the thing.

Furthermore, Talaxian dense musculature is quite likely just a bonus for the artificial strength enhancements. Also, you assume the comment was made is regards to pure strength, rather than perhaps other critieria such as endurance and durability.

In human muscles, endurance and durability are determined by the amount of mitochondria and O2 stores in them, not muscle density. Density determines brute strength. Talaxians can't be much different since every species in Trek seems to be capable of breeding with each other.

I highly doubt Neelix is any match for Tuvok, and Tuvok gets his ass handed to him by a former female drone (Seven).

A former drone. One that has had the vast bulk of her implants removed. Thus Tuvok got his ass kicked because HE is a wuss. And if Nelix is worse, Nelix is an UBER wuss.

Oh wow. You've managed to prove that ONE member of that race was a weakling. By that logic, Pee-wee Herman would disprove the existance of Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[Darth Servo]

More on Data "forceably fipping" Picard's cybernetic arm off. There were ZERO signs damage to the arm itself. No parts showing metal tearing. It was a clean detachment where two pieces were joined together through some means, perhaps electro magnetism or knowing the Trek writers, gravitics or some technobabble force-of-the-week.

[Robert Walper]

Borg drones are canonically strong enough to slap around other races easily and a couple can even man handle Data. Sorry Darth Servo, I don't see your arguements pulling any weight.

[Darth Servo]

Borg drones are canonically strong enough to slap around other races easily and a couple can even man handle Data.

Random nature of combat.

Data (as strong as he is) still can't violate conservation of momentum. Punch him hard enough, he will go flying.

Sorry Darth Servo, I don't see your arguements pulling any weight.

Of course YOU don't see them pulling any weight. <glances at your custom title>

[Robert Walper]

Borg drones are canonically strong enough to slap around other races easily and a couple can even man handle Data.

Random nature of combat.

Data (as strong as he is) still can't violate conservation of momentum. Punch him hard enough, he will go flying.

Sorry Darth Servo, I don't see your arguements pulling any weight.

Of course YOU don't see them pulling any weight. <glances at your custom title>

If you wish to argue that a typical Battle droid would win against a Borg drone in unarmed combat, make your arguements.

[Junghalli]

And yet Talaxan dense musculature proved an advantage to the collective indicating that drone strength comes from the biological parts, not the mechanical ones. This would suggest that Data was simply being careful so as to not injure Picard.

In Descent when Data was recreating his fight with the Borg drone in the holodeck he had to disengage the safety protocols for the holodeck to simulate the full strength of the drone. Geordi was seriously worried Data would get hurt or possibly killed trying this. Considering that Data is made out of the same stuff as spacecraft hulls I think this pretty strongly suggests a drone's strength is massively enhanced.

[NecronLord]

In Descent when Data was recreating his fight with the Borg drone in the holodeck he had to disengage the safety protocols for the holodeck to simulate the full strength of the drone. Geordi was seriously worried Data would get hurt or possibly killed trying this. Considering that Data is made out of the same stuff as spacecraft hulls I think this pretty strongly suggests a drone's strength is massively enhanced.

An iron bar can pierce him. Presumably a drone could also injure him in some way that doesn't involve tearing his structural frame apart.

[Robert Walper]

In Descent when Data was recreating his fight with the Borg drone in the holodeck he had to disengage the safety protocols for the holodeck to simulate the full strength of the drone. Geordi was seriously worried Data would get hurt or possibly killed trying this. Considering that Data is made out of the same stuff as spacecraft hulls I think this pretty strongly suggests a drone's strength is massively enhanced.

An iron bar can pierce him. Presumably a drone could also injure him in some way that doesn't involve tearing his structural frame apart.

Noting the drone in question in the simulation had no such advantage of an iron bar. In fact it was the exact example stated in the OP, unarmed combat. This is further proof that even one drone can be a threat to Data, an andriod we know to have super human strength and durability.

[Darth Servo]

If you wish to argue that a typical Battle droid would win against a Borg drone in unarmed combat, make your arguements.

I did. You dismissed them out of hand with no counter argument because of your fanwhore status.

[Darth Servo]

Noting the drone in question in the simulation had no such advantage of an iron bar. In fact it was the exact example stated in the OP, unarmed combat. This is further proof that even one drone can be a threat to Data, an andriod we know to have super human strength and durability.

You're still confusing offense and defense. That same iron bar is just as dangerous to a world class weightliftor as it is to you or I.

[NecronLord]

Noting the drone in question in the simulation had no such advantage of an iron bar.

I'm sorry. Do we know how the drone was likely to injure data? Punching him? Wrestling him? Biting his ears off? There are numerous ways to injure even a mechanical man without literally tearing his frame apart.

[The Silence and I]

Do you suppose Data is stronger then in FC? I was just reading the dialog and it does seem a Borg at full strength would be a serious threat to him. The arm wrestle with Picard I had assumed in the past Data was being gentle, but both the script and a re-hashing of the events point to a real struggle. If the drones in TNG are so close to Data's strength, why does he man-handle them in FC? It takes several of them to hold him down and he has little trouble overpowering the drones. Hmm, his access ports change frequently too.. bah, tangent. Carry on.

[Darth Servo]

Do you suppose Data is stronger then in FC? I was just reading the dialog and it does seem a Borg at full strength would be a serious threat to him. The arm wrestle with Picard I had assumed in the past Data was being gentle, but both the script and a re-hashing of the events point to a real struggle.

The script isn't canon. I repeat, Data did NOT tear the artificial limb off. We saw ZERO signs of damage to any of the components.

If the drones in TNG are so close to Data's strength, why does he man-handle them in FC?

Because those are the pussified B&B era drones?

[Robert Walper]

Do you suppose Data is stronger then in FC? I was just reading the dialog and it does seem a Borg at full strength would be a serious threat to him. The arm wrestle with Picard I had assumed in the past Data was being gentle, but both the script and a re-hashing of the events point to a real struggle. If the drones in TNG are so close to Data's strength, why does he man-handle them in FC? It takes several of them to hold him down and he has little trouble overpowering the drones. Hmm, his access ports change frequently too.. bah, tangent. Carry on.

I think it would be erroneous to assume all drones are of equal and superior strength. Borg drones after all are all equipped for specific tasks. Tactical drones would most likely be much stronger than, say, medical drones or repair drones, etc.

[The Silence and I]

If you wish to argue that a typical Battle droid would win against a Borg drone in unarmed combat, make your arguements.

I did. You dismissed them out of hand with no counter argument because of your fanwhore status.

I have provided reasons I think the Drone would beat the (non) living shit out of a standard droid, I see no advantage for a ordinary retarded battle droid, it is lighter, weaker and lacks a club, or the brains to figure out exposed cords may be vulnerable. It also lacks the brains to out maneuver a drone--the movies are ripe with examples of droids looking at something well before taking aim and firing (I realize blasters are not part of this fight, but that example reflects the droid's general sluggish reactions and stupid computer core). Finally, drones CAN move quickly, just like the damn droid. Fact is, both are too stupid to be likely to actually do so.

[The Silence and I]

Do you suppose Data is stronger then in FC? I was just reading the dialog and it does seem a Borg at full strength would be a serious threat to him. The arm wrestle with Picard I had assumed in the past Data was being gentle, but both the script and a re-hashing of the events point to a real struggle. If the drones in TNG are so close to Data's strength, why does he man-handle them in FC? It takes several of them to hold him down and he has little trouble overpowering the drones. Hmm, his access ports change frequently too.. bah, tangent. Carry on.

I think it would be erroneous to assume all drones are of equal and superior strength. Borg drones after all are all equipped for specific tasks. Tactical drones would most likely be much stronger than, say, medical drones or repair drones, etc.

What kind then were on the sphere? I would have assumed they were at least equiped to deal with combat, seeing as they were intent on taking over Earth.

I see your point though, they DID lack disruptors and seemed less tough than normal--Worf beating the shit out of at least one drone with rifle butt for example, lack of bullet proof armor as another.

[Bounty]

What kind then were on the sphere? I would have assumed they were at least equiped to deal with combat, seeing as they were intent on taking over Earth.

Depends on how many of them managed to board the Enterprise. If it were only one or two, then most of the drones we see would be recently-assimilated former crew members, and the Borg may have been cutting corners to save time.

[Robert Walper]

What kind then were on the sphere?

Probably an assorted bunch, but most of them were killed when the sphere was destroyed. I'd think the Borg beamed over to the Enterprise with drones best suited for their objective, assimilating it and combating Starfleet personnel.

I would have assumed they were at least equiped to deal with combat, seeing as they were intent on taking over Earth.

True, but since their goal was acquiring the Enterprise first, engaging in hand to hand or fire fights with Earth's population would be a non factor after that. Why fight the humans on Earth when you can beam up victims, stripping them of weapons during transport and assimilate them then.

I see your point though, they DID lack disruptors and seemed less tough than normal--Worf beating the shit out of at least one drone with rifle butt for example, lack of bullet proof armor as another.

Well, despite Worf's and Data's physical actions against the drones, their efforts didn't change the fact the Enterprise personnel were soundedly defeated and lost the Enterprise, fleeing in the escape pods.

[Darth Servo]

it is lighter, weaker and lacks a club, or the brains to figure out exposed cords may be vulnerable.

Standard drones don't have those brains either and they ALSO lack clubs.

It also lacks the brains to out maneuver a drone

Maneuvering at ALL will out maneuver a drone. Standard battle droids at least know how to run

--the movies are ripe with examples of droids looking at something well before taking aim and firing (I realize blasters are not part of this fight, but that example reflects the droid's general sluggish reactions and stupid computer core).

Thats still faster than drones who don't act at ALL until you hit them over the head.

Finally, drones CAN move quickly, just like the damn droid. Fact is, both are too stupid to be likely to actually do so.

The only ones who ever did were NOT part of the collective. They had regained individuality. No mention was made in the OP of the drone being one of those special drones seen in Descent. As such is a standard zombie drone.

[The Silence and I]

Quote:
Finally, drones CAN move quickly, just like the damn droid. Fact is, both are too stupid to be likely to actually do so.
The only ones who ever did were NOT part of the collective. They had regained individuality. No mention was made in the OP of the drone being one of those special drones seen in Descent. As such is a standard zombie drone.

That is incorrect. In First Contact at least one drone RUNS to block off Data during his escape attempt. Robert Walper has mentioned a drone that dodged a batleth swing, effectively emerging victorious because of it. In First Contact one drone sliced Data's skin very deftly, with a quick motion that took Data by surprise, and ended the fight.

Quote:
It also lacks the brains to out maneuver a drone
Maneuvering at ALL will out maneuver a drone. Standard battle droids at least know how to run

Incorrect, now see above...

The Silence and I wrote:
it is lighter, weaker and lacks a club, or the brains to figure out exposed cords may be vulnerable.
Standard drones don't have those brains either and they ALSO lack clubs.

AFAIK most drones have arm attachments that could serve as a club, although I could be wrong here but it does not effect my argument that soundly. As for the brains, read my post. I make careful note that the drones are just as stupid as the droids, you do not have to tell me what I have already asserted.

Quote:
--the movies are ripe with examples of droids looking at something well before taking aim and firing (I realize blasters are not part of this fight, but that example reflects the droid's general sluggish reactions and stupid computer core).
Thats still faster than drones who don't act at ALL until you hit them over the head.

A) If the drone is on attack mode this is a non issue
B) If it is on a more likely mode, then what is your point? Battledroid hits drone, effecting no damage, and the drone retaliates with near Data strength and greater mass. Opps!

The droid may be strong, but it has no, repeat no significant mass behind its strikes. If it tries to knifehand/punch the drone it will probably push itself away with little damage to the more massive drone. It will take repeated strikes to take the drone out, even with greater than human strength. If the droid tries to grapple, it will soon find itself in a world of hurt--there is a reason small light guys do not wrestle big, heavy very strong guys.

The only way the initial strike will make a large difference is if the droid goes for a tube or something. But anyone so delusional as to think that a droid will actually think of this needs an examination. I do not understand the dogged belief that anything, even the shittiest junk, in SW will beat anything in startrek in any scenario. Battledroids suck. Drones have their special moments of sillyness/stupidity, but in this kind of fight they are very good, and battledroids, which suck at the best thing they do, are weak in this area.