Hermann Goering on Iraq?

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BlkbrryTheGreat
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Hermann Goering on Iraq?

Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

It is hard to read this quote and not think of how it applies to the Bush and Iraq. Its worse then that actually, Iraq never attacked the U.S., they didn't even use their WMDs during the Gulf War when they had every opportunity and reason to, heck I can't even recall of any conventional Iraqi attacks on the US. Yet, we're still being told that they are going to attack us......
"Of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
Nazi leader, Hermann Goering (at the Nuremberg Trials, shortly before being sentenced to death)

Thoughts on the matter anyone?
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Post by David »

Sounds about right.
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Post by Spoonist »

The quote is almost correct. Go to snopes.com and search for goering and you'll find the actual conversation.

On the topic, the problem as I see things is that the US gov has the capacity to take out Saddam Hussein at any given time, either with a bomb/missile or spec ops, but has not opted to do so. Instead it seems that they wish to engage in a large scale war.
Also when the shiamuslims in the south rebelled against bagdad, the US gov didn't give the airsupport that they had promised, neither did they provide airsupport for the kurds in the north when they rebelled.

Why?
Well according to the advisors in the bush adm, they do not and did not wish to see a divided Iraq. If Iraq was divided into smaller countries the so called stability of the region would deteriorate.
Hello????
Welcome to reality, the region is not stable! The region will not become stable thanks to a NATO invasion of Iraq.
I say, please go ahead and take out Saddam Hussein, good riddance, but pleeeeease don't install a new dictator in bagdad, that kind of politics will only backfire.
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Post by EmperorChrostas the Cruel »

Spoonist:
If it were that easy, we would have ALREADY done it.

Do you honestly think the USA is such a moral prig, that it would rather go to war than use asassination as a tool?

The target in question here, is a paranoid SURVIVER. This guy has a MINIMUM of 5 sugicaly altered doubles, (Whom are probably who everyone not on the small list of the realy trusted ever see) never sleeps in the same place twice in a row, and in short plays the shell game all the time. He is also protected by a police state, that speaks farsi. They can tell in a scentance who almost ALL but the best linguists are foriegn born.(Accent!) They don't NEED a warent, or even probable cause, to haul your ass downtown, for some "questions".

In short, other than not knowing reliably where he is, in a hostile land, surrounded by an army, who's language most agents don't speak, it should be a piece of cake to kill him.

(We'll send in NINJAS! Yah, that would work!)

With a nuke, MAYBE! IF you even got the right CITY! Maybe not, if your nuke doesn't get close enough to the RIGHT bunker!

I don't know why people say such nonsence. Are they truly so ignorant as to the difficulty of killing this nut, (or ANY nut, with a COUNTRY to run interferance for him) or is this outcome based reasoning, based on the opinion that GWB, the USA, the west, (fill in the blank) is evil, greedy, malicious, (fill in the blank)?

Perhaps you believe that USA wants to forceably extend it's boundries,and get all that oil. If oil was the ONLY concerne, we would NEVER have left Kuwait, wouldn't have stopped at the Kuwati border, and we would kiss off Isreal, the only land in the region with NO oil!
Hmmmmmm.

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Post by HemlockGrey »

I hear Saddam's dying of cancer. Any bets on what happens if he buys the farm?
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Post by data_link »

Bush invades anyway, for the oil.
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Re: Hermann Goering on Iraq?

Post by Wicked Pilot »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:It is hard to read this quote and not think of how it applies to the Bush and Iraq.
There is a difference here, farmers like cheap gas, hence the first war.
Its worse then that actually, Iraq never attacked the U.S.,
Serbia never attacked the U.S. Should we not have intervened there. How about with North Korea, or Nazi Germany?
they didn't even use their WMDs during the Gulf War when they had every opportunity and reason to,
Cargo planes full of chemical weapons were destroyed on the gound during the first night of the air assault. Your assumption that they had every oppertunity to use NBC weapons protrays a lack of understanding into the nature of how these weapons are deployed. Besides, Saddam knew that such an attack would probably mean that regime change would become a new objective, as it wasn't one at the onset.
heck I can't even recall of any conventional Iraqi attacks on the US.
They only invaded Kuwait and Saudi while firing missiles into Israel.
Yet, we're still being told that they are going to attack us......
No one has said they will attack us. Only that they will attack our interest in the region, or supply those who will attack us directly. They already invaded one country, killing it's citizens and looting their property.
The most basic assumption about the world is that it does not contradict itself.
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Post by EmperorChrostas the Cruel »

When, not if, the USA occupies Iraq, Iran, will crumble into civil war, and the Mullahas will lose. Saudi Arabia, will experience a flow of US soldiers, leaving their country, going into Iraq. So, shortly, will the US petrodollars follow. Econimic collapse, chaos and civil war. Maybe the EU will help pick up the pieces, maybe not. You don't realy think an other Taliban will be tollerated, by the USA do you? If that looks likely, the USA could occupy them too.

Sadly, from a US citizens point of view, it will be our blood, and sweat that will save the world, once again. We will change the region, like we did to Imperial Japan, and Facist Germany and Italy. In 20 years, they will be strong, healthy, prosperous, democratic, and FREE, like every other place we occupied.

Without the cash infusions (and safe haven!) from Saudis and Iranians, the state sponcored hateful propaganda taught in schools, and the manifest failure of Islamism, the Islamic terrorism will scale back drasticaly. (Once the jihad suiciders have expended themselves, and the rest see which way the wind is blowing)

Syrria/Lebanon will get there asses handed to them by the Isrealis if they get too uppity.

THEN, the region will be stable.
Hmmmmmm.

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Post by data_link »

They only invaded Kuwait and Saudi while firing missiles into Israel.
As I recall, this was in response to Kuwait and Saudi drilling diagonal tunnels into THEIR oil fields. And in the typical example of U.N. justice, the problem was completely ignored until Iraq started attacking, and then they punish him instead of the guys who were stealing Iraq's oil in the first place. :roll:
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Spoonist wrote:The quote is almost correct. Go to snopes.com and search for goering and you'll find the actual conversation.

On the topic, the problem as I see things is that the US gov has the capacity to take out Saddam Hussein at any given time, either with a bomb/missile or spec ops, but has not opted to do so. Instead it seems that they wish to engage in a large scale war.
Oh yes, even at the height of their funding, the CIA had six tries and couldn't kill Castro, now they've been emasculated and there's an Executive Order forbiding assassination of foriegn leaders, now we can get Saddam with one pinpoint stirke, and then everything will be happy, really! But big-bad ol Bush don't want that....he wants to take your kids...or something else really weally baD! :roll:

And you know exactly where he is, do you? Yes, blame the U.S. for being an asshole by upholding its own promises. Assassinating leaders when their sons are as bad or worse and moreover risking plunging the said nation into a civil war hellhole is not an optimal solution to the problem. Simpleminded shit like this is the problem. It wouldn't matter if it was Hussein or his son or some general who took over since 1991, its Iraq's behavior and their nuke programs and other WMD. Thank you for entirely missing the whole fucking point.

You may remove your head from your ass now.

data_link wrote:
They only invaded Kuwait and Saudi while firing missiles into Israel.
As I recall, this was in response to Kuwait and Saudi drilling diagonal tunnels into THEIR oil fields. And in the typical example of U.N. justice, the problem was completely ignored until Iraq started attacking, and then they punish him instead of the guys who were stealing Iraq's oil in the first place. :roll:
Brillant. You think the U.S. is being hostile but if someone taps some of your oil you invade and conquer their country? How hypocritical. You think that invasion by Iraq is justice? What are you smoking? This is a typical example of left moronic double-standards where the U.S. must abide by secret special etiqutte, but Iraq conquers nations that fuck with it. Don't you think if what you are saying is true (which I doubt) that the more appropriate response would be to bomb the oil derricks over the border stealing your oil?

Everyone, the new response for people screwing you over is to completely overrun their country and attempt to conquer it. Do you expect me to believe that much of Iraq's oil was stolen? I'd like to see the source for that info too.
data_link wrote:Bush invades anyway, for the oil.
Oh fuck...forget that one of his sons is as bad as him, and the other is a mass-murdering nutjob who needs institutionalization, forget that shit...forget evidence.

Iraq has gassed its own civilians, violated mulitple UN resolutions, continued to build or attempt to build nuclear weapons, build and stockpile biological and chemical weapons, attempted to have Former President George Bush assassinated, and helped fund and support the first World Trade Center bombing.

But no, none of that's enough, it's about the oil, of course, nevermind we have some of our own and Russia and Canada and Mexico and Venezuela each output more oil then Iraq and we hardly need them....nevermind that shit.

It's ONLY about the oil...we swear. :roll:
Last edited by Illuminatus Primus on 2002-11-15 11:45pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

data_link wrote:As I recall, this was in response to Kuwait and Saudi drilling diagonal tunnels into THEIR oil fields. And in the typical example of U.N. justice, the problem was completely ignored until Iraq started attacking, and then they punish him instead of the guys who were stealing Iraq's oil in the first place. :roll:
Um, no. Where did you hear that from? Hussein started this mess after Kuwaitt, Saudi, and other oil producting nations refused to go along with his plan to cut oil production. He wanted to raise the price of oil so he could pay back the mountains of debt Iraq had incurred during the war with Iran. When they refused, he invaded.
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Post by data_link »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
data_link wrote:"]
They only invaded Kuwait and Saudi while firing missiles into Israel.
As I recall, this was in response to Kuwait and Saudi drilling diagonal tunnels into THEIR oil fields. And in the typical example of U.N. justice, the problem was completely ignored until Iraq started attacking, and then they punish him instead of the guys who were stealing Iraq's oil in the first place. :roll:
Brillant. You think the U.S. is being hostile but if someone taps some of your oil you invade and conquer their country? How hypocritical. You think that invasion by Iraq is justice? What are you smoking? This is a typical example of left moronic double-standards where the U.S. must abide by secret special etiqutte, but Iraq conquers nations that fuck with it. Don't you think if what you are saying is true (which I doubt) that the more appropriate response would be to bomb the oil derricks over the border stealing your oil?

Everyone, the new response for people screwing you over is to completely overrun their country and attempt to conquer it. Do you expect me to believe that much of Iraq's oil was stolen? I'd like to see the source for that info too.
Actually, they DID bomb the oil derricks. Anything they did after that would be legitimate grounds for a response. What I want to see from the US and the UN isn't some kind of special etiqette, but consistency. They will willingly leave alone or even support dictators most of the time, but the moment one of them does something that threatens our propaganda campaigns or our supply of oil, they then bombard us with images about how fucked-up these dictatorships are in order to rally political support for an invasion, when we've been ignoring them for years. Take Saddam - we were the ones who put him into power. We also ignored his requests for U.N. action on behalf of Iraq multiple times, saying its none of our business, and then when he takes matters into his own hands it's suddenly our business? I can understand us intervening in foriegn affairs as some sort of international cops, but if we're not going to be clean cops, what right do we have to get involved at all?
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

1. He was already in power. We funded his war with Iran because the Ayotollah had just taken over.

2. You still see the conquest of nations as some twisted justice.

3. Sources, please?

4. Beyond that whole thing being a red herring, and not even refuting my point that conquest is not legitimate retaliation, why shouldn't the U.S. protect itself against a threat to its security? I never entertained these crusades for democracy bullshit. This is about making sure the next terrorist attack they help with doesn't involve an Iraqi-made nuclear bomb.
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Post by TrailerParkJawa »

Serbia never attacked the U.S. Should we not have intervened there. How about with North Korea, or Nazi Germany?
Serbia was questionable. No US interests were at risk, but you could make an arguement that a NATO action was warranted.

Nazi Germany declared war on us after Pearl Harbor if I recall correctly.
Cargo planes full of chemical weapons were destroyed on the gound during the first night of the air assault. Your assumption that they had every oppertunity to use NBC weapons protrays a lack of understanding into the nature of how these weapons are deployed. Besides, Saddam knew that such an attack would probably mean that regime change would become a new objective, as it wasn't one at the onset.
Agreed. However, I would like point out that a lot of folks are making the arguement that Sadam will use these weapons on us unprovoked. I dont think he will.
Um, no. Where did you hear that from? Hussein started this mess after Kuwaitt, Saudi, and other oil producting nations refused to go along with his plan to cut oil production. He wanted to raise the price of oil so he could pay back the mountains of debt Iraq had incurred during the war with Iran. When they refused, he invaded.
I believe this was an acusation made by Sadam against Kuwait. I believe it was unfounded but used as an excuse to take the oil fields. If I can find source I will post it.
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Post by data_link »

Iraq has gassed its own civilians
Which presents a threat to us how?
violated mulitple UN resolutions
And we havent? :roll:
continued to build or attempt to build nuclear weapons
Your source?
build and stockpile biological and chemical weapons
Which is a perfectly reasonable measure to take against an overwhelmingly powerful opponent who hates your guts. Notice that he hasn't deployed any of them.
attempted to have Former President George Bush assassinated
Which is what this war is really about, even more than oil. Daddy's little boy wants revenge.
and helped fund and support the first World Trade Center bombing.
Proof?
But no, none of that's enough, it's about the oil, of course, nevermind we have some of our own and Russia and Canada and Mexico and Venezuela each output more oil then Iraq and we hardly need them....nevermind that shit.
Yes - nevermind that the fact that we don't need one tenth as much oil as we consume, never mind that Bush stand to make millions personally from any increase in the supply, never mind that he hasnt showed an interest in, say, invading PAKISTAN, even though they constitute a bigger threat to us and a bigger problem for human rights.
2. You still see the conquest of nations as some twisted justice.
Considering that we gave him explicit permission to attack, considering that we refused to even investigate the allegations of horizontal drilling, considering that we told him it was none of our business, and then we act all imputent because he invades the whole country instead of just the northern half like we asked him to? Oh yeah, but never mind that desert storm was a complete waste of our nations resources, never mind that it was through our inaction that any attack took place at all, never mind that any competent politician would have realized that for Saddam to invade only part of kuwait was a political impossibility, we still have the right to kill millions who pose no threat to us because our anger is perfect and sinless... :roll:
3. Sources, please?
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/iraq-desert-storm.html
http://www.desert-storm.com/War/chronology.html

Ironically, Iraq burning their oil fields wasn't enough for them - they still insist on horizontal drilling:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/09/ ... 3586.shtml
4. Beyond that whole thing being a red herring, and not even refuting my point that conquest is not legitimate retaliation, why shouldn't the U.S. protect itself against a threat to its security? I never entertained these crusades for democracy bullshit. This is about making sure the next terrorist attack they help with doesn't involve an Iraqi-made nuclear bomb.
Sure - like saddam is stupid enough to attack us. No, this is daddy's little boy out to get revenge for his father, get rich quick, and create enough of a media circus to distract the nation from the fact that he is completely incompetent. The third one being the true goal of Bush's entire foriegn policy - if we can get in a bunch of short wars for his entire term of office, the media will be too busy recording that to notice that his domestic policies are too fucked up for words.
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Post by Mr Bean »

Which presents a threat to us how?
Weee gee Goly them nice Germans were not doing anything to us when they where killing all dem Jews, guess we should have never gotten invovled... :roll:
And we havent?
:twisted: Gocha, Name the UN Resoulitons the US has violated or concided that point :twisted:
Your source?
American and Israily Intellgence Assests and no don't ask me a dumb fucking question like thier names as we don't do that or they = dead and we get no more information
Plus the Freely Aviable Satlite Overheads showing new construction at Former Nuclear Sites which look exactly like what we blew up before then

Which is a perfectly reasonable measure to take against an overwhelmingly powerful opponent who hates your guts. Notice that he hasn't deployed any of them.
Acutal he HAS he was not able to in the Gulf War because his carrier Agents where mostly destroyed and he smarted up, we were not thier to take him out we where there to kick him out of Kuwait, had he used Bio-Agents not only would they have been completly ineffective aginst our troops but we would have been forced to retailiate

Bio and Chemical Weapons are only good aginst a Civilian Populas not modern day Armys.

Which is what this war is really about, even more than oil. Daddy's little boy wants revenge.
:lol: Nope must have been ONE Factor and ONE Factor alone, Just like the Civil War was all about Slavery and nothing else :roll:
Proof?
Israily Military Agents provided the Nessary Documentation to the US who provided it to the Media, I don't know if they ever slaped it online anywhere

Yes - nevermind that the fact that we don't need one tenth as much oil as we consume,
:?: :?: :?:
Uhhh mind backing up or explaing that statment there

never mind that Bush stand to make millions personally from any increase in the supply, never mind that he hasnt showed an interest in, say, invading PAKISTAN, even though they constitute a bigger threat to us and a bigger problem for human rights.
How about the Fact that PAKISTAN HAS NUKES HAS AGREED TO DO EVERYTHING WE SAID unlike Iraq
Fuck on your logic we should be Invading Canada tommrow because they help fund the IRA!

WONG! GET READY AMERICA IS INVADING!
:roll:
Considering that we gave him explicit permission to attack, considering that we refused to even investigate the allegations of horizontal drilling, considering that we told him it was none of our business, and then we act all imputent because he invades the whole country instead of just the northern half like we asked him to?
Be prepared to back up that Bullshit about us giving them Explicit Permision to invade, There is only one US Agancy who can give Permision for another Country to invade, give you a Hint his Title is "President"


The third one being the true goal of Bush's entire foriegn policy - if we can get in a bunch of short wars for his entire term of office, the media will be too busy recording that to notice that his domestic policies are too fucked up for words.
Why What fucked up Domestic Polices are that?

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Post by Raptor 597 »

Actually, Bush's plan for oil, believe me I know everyone I know is in the oil industry. Anyways, I was talking too my Grandfather, and instead of upping the supply he'll lower it too it's lowest mimunium, so his oil prices wll be up, then he will start selling again at a higher price. Quite sinister really. :twisted:
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Post by Mr Bean »

As yes I forgot that part, silly me its basic Ecnomics, See Data-Link with a greater Oil Suppy Bush acutaly stands to LOOSE Money as a sitting President do you think they would acutaly let him sell his Texas Oil intrests and convert them to Iraq intrests? Hell no the Media would have a field day, infact its noted in various major texas newspapers that the conquering of Iraq and the introduction of cheaper oil into the World would LOWER prices and make Texas oil worth less and therfor infact hurt any of Mr Bushs former friends

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Post by C.S.Strowbridge »

Emperor Chrostas the Crue wrote: Do you honestly think the USA is such a moral prig, that it would rather go to war than use asassination as a tool?
Yes.
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Post by data_link »

Bean wrote:Weee gee Goly them nice Germans were not doing anything to us when they where killing all dem Jews, guess we should have never gotten invovled...
As you mention, if their crimes against other people are our justification for invasion, then we should be invading Canada tomorrow because of their support for the IRA.
Bean wrote:Gocha, Name the UN Resoulitons the US has violated or concided that point
Resolution 2131 - "Declaration on the inadmissability of intervention" read about one of our violations here

Also, we are guilty of preventing UN actions agains Israel for its no less than 68 seperate violations. A list can be found here

You were saying, Bean?
Bean wrote:Acutal he HAS he was not able to in the Gulf War because his carrier Agents where mostly destroyed and he smarted up, we were not thier to take him out we where there to kick him out of Kuwait, had he used Bio-Agents not only would they have been completly ineffective aginst our troops but we would have been forced to retailiate

Bio and Chemical Weapons are only good aginst a Civilian Populas not modern day Armys.
So you admit that the only possible use of the bio-weapons he has is against civilians, and he can't do that because we would be forced to retaliate with at least equal force. In other words, he poses no threat whatsoever to us. Also, you never adressed my point about development of bio-weapons being a reasonable action to take against an overwhelmingly powerful opponent who hates your guts. Concession accepted.
Bean wrote: Nope must have been ONE Factor and ONE Factor alone, Just like the Civil War was all about Slavery and nothing else
Strawman. I listed no less than three seperate factors for this war, none of which has anything to do with national security or justice.
Bean wrote:Israily Military Agents provided the Nessary Documentation to the US who provided it to the Media, I don't know if they ever slaped it online anywhere
Israeli military agents? How reliable... :roll:
Bean wrote:Uhhh mind backing up or explaing that statment there
We use far more oil than we actually need. We don't need to have cars and SUV's using millions of barrels of oil daily, we don't need to have a power infrasturcture whose primary fuel is oil, we could try developing an efficient mass transit system in most major cities, we could try actually taxing oil like they do in other countries so as to limit consumption, but we don't because we are ensured of a upply of oil far in excess of what our nation actually needs because we rule the world. The one-tenth figure was an exaggeration, but the point is that the fact that we have more oil than we need now does not mean that oil companies wouldn't be able to sell more.
Bean wrote:How about the Fact that PAKISTAN HAS NUKES HAS AGREED TO DO EVERYTHING WE SAID unlike Iraq
Fuck on your logic we should be Invading Canada tommrow because they help fund the IRA!
Your appeal to ridicule only demonstrates the apalling immorality of your position. What you have just said is that you support invading a country whenever it doesn't do what we tell it to, regardless of its human rights violations or lack thereof, regardless of the threat it presents or lack thereof, simply for not following our orders when we have no right to give them orders anyway because they are a SOVEREIGN nation. In simpler language Bean, you are saying that you support an American dictatorship of the entire world.
Bean wrote:Be prepared to back up that Bullshit about us giving them Explicit Permision to invade, There is only one US Agancy who can give Permision for another Country to invade, give you a Hint his Title is "President"
Perhaps someone should have explained that to our ambassadors before they exceeded their authority... :roll:
Bean wrote:Why What fucked up Domestic Polices are that?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: . Good one, Bean. Oh, just in case you were serious, the answer is all of them.
Bean wrote:As yes I forgot that part, silly me its basic Ecnomics, See Data-Link with a greater Oil Suppy Bush acutaly stands to LOOSE Money as a sitting President do you think they would acutaly let him sell his Texas Oil intrests and convert them to Iraq intrests? Hell no the Media would have a field day, infact its noted in various major texas newspapers that the conquering of Iraq and the introduction of cheaper oil into the World would LOWER prices and make Texas oil worth less and therfor infact hurt any of Mr Bushs former friends
And you think that obtaining oil without paying for it (which would happen if we occupied Iraq) wouldn't result in a net profit for his friends?
data_link has resigned from the board after proving himself to be a relentless strawman-using asshole in this thread and being too much of a pussy to deal with the inevitable flames. Buh-bye.
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Mr Bean
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Post by Mr Bean »

As you mention, if their crimes against other people are our justification for invasion, then we should be invading Canada tomorrow because of their support for the IRA.
You are this <-------> far away from getting the point, the fact is its not the only reason, you discount it as a valid reason out of hand, your logic is terrible and you can't seem to grasp the diffrence between say the US Invading Iraq or Iran for Terrisom support or Say Invading Canada for its support, Or NOT invading as is the flip side, you can't seem to grasp that

Resolution 2131 - "Declaration on the inadmissability of intervention" read about one of our violations here

Also, we are guilty of preventing UN actions agains Israel for its no less than 68 seperate violations. A list can be found here

You were saying, Bean?
BZZZZZZZT Sorry try agian, Remeber the question is what UN resoultions have WE Violated, We Being the US, Not we Being Isreal, And you found one, Woop DE, And who broke it? Why then President Clinton, The man who attacked without support of the House and Senate, It was obvious from the start what his inital aim was, This is the same man remeber who has now over 2 Million Dollers in Unreported "Gifts"(Free Stock or Stock Options counts under gifts) that he collected as President he is no longer in power and don't try to pretend it as such

Secondly Isreal is an entirly seperat situation, It is FUBAR, It infact should be classifed as the Defintion of FUBAR in all Military Textbooks and you'll find that a great many people of this board agree with me and also agree that we have no business supporting Isreal to begin with

So you admit that the only possible use of the bio-weapons he has is against civilians, and he can't do that because we would be forced to retaliate with at least equal force. In other words, he poses no threat whatsoever to us. Also, you never adressed my point about development of bio-weapons being a reasonable action to take against an overwhelmingly powerful opponent who hates your guts. Concession accepted.
Don't Twist My Words Data its not polite, The point I was attemting to get across(And you so clearly missed) is that even though they are completly useless aginst most Modern Militarys they are quite effective aginst less tecnologly capable Armys such as Saudi Arabias and Iran's and he has the means to use them as such if not the nessary Military Might to do them as such that Isreal could not take apart, The point agian is that one does not use Chemical and Biolgical Weapons aginst the Military, they are intended to be used aginst Civilian Popluas of which Saddam has quite a few to choose from, and don't tell me he's not thinking Long Term, he was smart enough to hold off using them because he knew that he would not come out of the Gulf War intact if he did, Not only that he managed to talk the UN into perserving 5 Square Miles of Underground Facilites as being "Inspector Free" between 91 and 2002

Strawman. I listed no less than three seperate factors for this war, none of which has anything to do with national security or justice.
Ahh but you said
Which is what this war is really about, even more than oil. Daddy's little boy wants revenge.
What this war is realy about? Thats sound like one reason to me, or a main reason, and Oil is your second reason(Already disproven, more oil= Poorer Bush not Richer one) so whats your third reason?

(Since you consider the Fact Saddam is a dicator and has engage in the murdering of his own people plus the Kurds for quite a few years now as being completly irrelvent)

Israeli military agents? How reliable...
Aurgly the second best in the World with the Death of the KGB, unless you want to back up that statment concided the point
We use far more oil than we actually need. We don't need to have cars and SUV's using millions of barrels of oil daily, we don't need to have a power infrasturcture whose primary fuel is oil, we could try developing an efficient mass transit system in most major cities, we could try actually taxing oil like they do in other countries so as to limit consumption, but we don't because we are ensured of a upply of oil far in excess of what our nation actually needs because we rule the world. The one-tenth figure was an exaggeration, but the point is that the fact that we have more oil than we need now does not mean that oil companies wouldn't be able to sell more
Ahh I see your aurgment rests on the fact that we don't need Cars and SUV's tell me can you produce numbers for how much more SUV's waste than cars? Or prehaps you are refering to the fact that we don't need cars at all and we could all make due with Bikes, or prehaps Pogo-Sticks to get around

And you second point.... Our Power Structer? Do you relise the costs of ripping all that out and rebuilding it would be roughly enough to buy all the Oil of the Middle East with some left over for Russian Oil as well? Your talking about Trillions of Dollers of Equipment and we should just throw it away and use somthing else? I think your underesmate exaclty the problems faced in switching of a partily oiled based system as we have today
Your appeal to ridicule only demonstrates the apalling immorality of your position. What you have just said is that you support invading a country whenever it doesn't do what we tell it to, regardless of its human rights violations or lack thereof, regardless of the threat it presents or lack thereof, simply for not following our orders when we have no right to give them orders anyway because they are a SOVEREIGN nation. In simpler language Bean, you are saying that you support an American dictatorship of the entire world.
F U C K I N G BS, I can't belive you could sit there and type that, completly ignorate of fucking casuse and Relationship, You sit there and twist my words so much its sicking you take me critsing you about the fact that your ignoring cause and effect and sevrity, I point out by your logic we SHOULD be invading everyone everywhere as everyone has done somthing bad at some point or another, from the UK to India by your logic we should start a gobal war, How about China? If one wants to rant about Human Rights Violates why not pick the Country that invented half the tortures outlawed everywhere else.

Lets say this agian very slowly so maybe you can understand this time

Iran has bent over backward and agree to do pretty much anything we want,
We are talking with North Korea now, Pakistan is also being talked with though they won't give up thier nukes because of India, India Likewise, however both have agreed to cease testing of Missles that have any greater range then the ones they have now, Meanwhile Iraq has activly pursuded Nuclear Material, and Devlvery devices that can reach as far as Britian and might be weeks, might be months, but is definatly within a year of a Nuclear Device after which he can hold us at arms length at will, Nuclear Blackmail becomes a very real Possbility



And lastly your horrendece language with the stuble comparsion to Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia(Dicatorship of the world?) woudl imply that I at some point said the President should have absoutle power, something I'm afriand you won't be able to find, unless of course you want to twist my words more than you have already and sink to absoutle fabrication

Perhaps someone should have explained that to our ambassadors before they exceeded their authority...
I think you'll Also find that Ambassadors don't have the right to delcare war or ok war either....

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
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Mr Bean
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Post by Mr Bean »

Ooops hit submit to early, anyway onto the last half of the post
Good one, Bean. Oh, just in case you were serious, the answer is all of them.
Nice Dodge, Try agian, name em and explain why they are fucked up or concided
And you think that obtaining oil without paying for it (which would happen if we occupied Iraq) wouldn't result in a net profit for his friends?
Bzzzt Sorry but the Texas Oil Barons of which Mr Bush would have his friends have nothing to do with the Overseas Oil Concergroups of which Texans are not a Part of, As a result of oil being introduced into the Market the Price would go down, Hurting Texas oi intrests as the Demand for Oil is Steady, Production is limited Delibraly by OPEC and anytime new Oil is annoced profits and prices go down

Its a bit hard for me to explain in under a page and a half but here is the rule of thumb

More Oil= Less Profits and Lower Prices at the Pump

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
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Post by data_link »

Mr Bean wrote:Meanwhile Iraq has activly pursuded Nuclear Material, and Devlvery devices that can reach as far as Britian and might be weeks, might be months, but is definatly within a year of a Nuclear Device after which he can hold us at arms length at will, Nuclear Blackmail becomes a very real Possbility
Oh, now, this is the point you didn't mention. You said we shouldn't invade other countries because they will do anything we ask them to. You didn't say "because they don't pose a potential threat to us." Given your wording, it kind of makes me wonder if you actually do support a US dictatorship. But as to the point, yes, avoiding his development of weapons he can actually hurt us with is a legitimate interest of national security. What I don't see, however, is the US limiting it's demands to just this. What I see is us trying to completely govern Iraq's development. But you're right - the ineffectiveness of our diplomats does not constitute a valid reason for us not to protect our future security. I concede the point.

Really Bean, if you had just mentioned that Iraq does actually pose a potential threat to us from the beginning instead of trying to prove that we have moral superiority over Iraq (which does not constitute a valid reason for invasion), you would have had a much shorter argument.
data_link has resigned from the board after proving himself to be a relentless strawman-using asshole in this thread and being too much of a pussy to deal with the inevitable flames. Buh-bye.
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