Are the Prequels Imperial Propaganda?

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2005-03-16 04:29pm

This does not have to equal plural.

I can say this is a -insert noun here- That does not mean there has to be more than one of that noun.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2005-03-16 04:38pm

Kartr_Kana wrote:begun this clone war has. If there were no clone wars before that then it would have been "begun the clone war has". See the difference one is singular the other is plural.

Dude, for one you're using Yoda's grammer as a measuring stick. And like Wraith said, the use of "this" does not always mean there have been many before it. For example, 1904(?) Yoda says "Begun, this World War has." Do you automatically assume that there have been World Wars before it?

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2005-03-16 04:40pm

Captain Cyran wrote:
Kartr_Kana wrote:begun this clone war has. If there were no clone wars before that then it would have been "begun the clone war has". See the difference one is singular the other is plural.
Dude, for one you're using Yoda's grammer as a measuring stick. And like Wraith said, the use of "this" does not always mean there have been many before it. For example, 1904(?) Yoda says "Begun, this World War has." Do you automatically assume that there have been World Wars before it?

*stares slack jawed at Cyran*

World War I= 1914-1918.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2005-03-16 04:43pm

Crazedwraith wrote:*stares slack jawed at Cyran*

World War I= 1914-1918.

*Just cries... repeatedly, then shoots himself in the head.*

I had a brain fart... lemme alone.

Kartr_Kana · Post by **Kartr_Kana** » 2005-03-16 04:48pm

I conced the Yoda thing, but I still think that there were more then one clone wars (that is why it is clone wars) and that this is the first one that the Republic fought. This would explain TTT and other clone war references.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2005-03-16 05:41pm

Captain Cyran wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:*stares slack jawed at Cyran*

World War I= 1914-1918.
*Just cries... repeatedly, then shoots himself in the head.*

I had a brain fart... lemme alone.

Shit, you didn't even italicize that. Fourth time ever. This is a bad day for you, man.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-03-16 06:27pm

Kartr_Kana wrote:I conced the Yoda thing, but I still think that there were more then one clone wars (that is why it is clone wars) and that this is the first one that the Republic fought. This would explain TTT and other clone war references.

Just a stupid question WTF is TTT (I could understand if TT meant Trawn Trilogy but three T)

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2005-03-16 06:39pm

Kartr_Kana wrote:History is written by the victors. The Empire won so the history we are seeing is what the empire wants us to see. It is acurate for what it shows but it does not show all of the clone wars.

In AOTC Yoda says that the clone wars have begun, how would he know it was the Clone Wars if this was the first/only war and only one side uses clones why would he call it that? Perhapes the clone wars had started shortly after TPM but the Republic was not drawn in untill AOTC when one faction in the clone wars (the seperatist) attacked the republic. The Republics Clones are not insane like the clones used by other factions because their growth has not been rushed like those of the factions we do not see.

So AOTC is actually the begining of the end of the Clone Wars, and ROTS is the "darktimes" obi-wan mentioned in ANH when the Jedi were hunted down and right before the Galactic Empire was created.

TTT mentions the other Wars that form the Clone Wars, TTT is acurate, but does not deal with the Republics part of the Wars.

BTW how old is Obi-wan in ANH?

First, history isn't neccesarily written by the victors. America essentially lost the Vietnam War yet we don't read about it or see it from the N.V. side. Nor, do we here about Macedons conquest of Greece exclusively or even mostly from the side of Macedonia. Also, the histories of the World Wars, especially the First isn't really weighted to any one side. The same goes for the Thirty Years War and the Napoleonic Wars.

How do you know there weren't clone wars 1,000-3,000-10,000 years before Yoda says that. SW history covers over 25,000 years. Plus, the TTT says IIRC the clone wars it refers to ocurred around 40 pre-ANH.

The time line in the SW dictionary says IIRC Obi-Wan was born 60 years before ANH

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2005-03-16 06:40pm

Lord Revan wrote:
Kartr_Kana wrote:I conced the Yoda thing, but I still think that there were more then one clone wars (that is why it is clone wars) and that this is the first one that the Republic fought. This would explain TTT and other clone war references.
Just a stupid question WTF is TTT (I could understand if TT meant Trawn Trilogy but three T)

The Thrawn Trilogy.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-03-16 06:43pm

the articles aren't so simple to some whos first language doesn't have them.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-03-16 06:54pm

Also remember that human memory is not very relieble and clone memory is even more unrelieble (especially with spaarti clones).

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2005-03-16 11:42pm

Captain Cyran wrote:
Kartr_Kana wrote:begun this clone war has. If there were no clone wars before that then it would have been "begun the clone war has". See the difference one is singular the other is plural.
Dude, for one you're using Yoda's grammer as a measuring stick. And like Wraith said, the use of "this" does not always mean there have been many before it. For example, 1904(?) Yoda says "Begun, this World War has." Do you automatically assume that there have been World Wars before it?

Umm...they didn't call it a "World War" until the second one. They just called it the Great War, because they thought it really was the war to end all other wars...a lot of people didn't think that another conflict that big would ever be allowed to occur again.

Kartr_Kana · Post by **Kartr_Kana** » 2005-03-17 02:08pm

NRS Guardian that is part of my point the victors write the history but so do the bystanders. The Galactic Empire did not just accept the surrender of the CIS or any other factions it compleatly wiped them out. There was no one from those sides left to write a history, so we have to rely on the Empires story completly, we can call it Bull Sh*t and rely on the little EU that mentions/talks about the clone wars, or we can accept both with a grain of salt and the knowledge that neither tells the whole story on its own but together we can see a clearer picture of the clone wars as they really were.

Thank you for pointing out that Molyneux I had forgotten that it was "the Great War" and the "War to end all wars" not "WW1" until the second world war.

Lord Reven you have a good point about human memory, but I was not relying on Joruus C'baoth but on Jorjj Car'das who built an empire, albeit a criminal one, on knowledge.

BTW what is IIRC I keep seeing it but I cannot figure it out.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-03-17 02:41pm

Lord Reven you have a good point about human memory, but I was not relying on Joruus C'baoth but on Jorjj Car'das who built an empire, albeit a criminal one, on knowledge.

build an empire on having and controlling information. Every thing (s)he says or somebody who bases his/her sayings in his(/her) words must be taken with shit load of salt. the same goes for Talon Karrde.

BTW what is IIRC I keep seeing it but I cannot figure it out.

If I recall correctly.

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2005-03-17 02:48pm

Molyneux wrote:
Captain Cyran wrote:
Kartr_Kana wrote:begun this clone war has. If there were no clone wars before that then it would have been "begun the clone war has". See the difference one is singular the other is plural.
Dude, for one you're using Yoda's grammer as a measuring stick. And like Wraith said, the use of "this" does not always mean there have been many before it. For example, 1904(?) Yoda says "Begun, this World War has." Do you automatically assume that there have been World Wars before it?
Umm...they didn't call it a "World War" until the second one. They just called it the Great War, because they thought it really was the war to end all other wars...a lot of people didn't think that another conflict that big would ever be allowed to occur again.

The point remains though. I wasn't using it as a specific example.

Kartr_Kana · Post by **Kartr_Kana** » 2005-03-17 03:09pm

Quote:
Lord Reven you have a good point about human memory, but I was not relying on Joruus C'baoth but on Jorjj Car'das who built an empire, albeit a criminal one, on knowledge.

build an empire on having and controlling information. Every thing (s)he says or somebody who bases his/her sayings in his(/her) words must be taken with shit load of salt. the same goes for Talon Karrde.

However information is their business and the are the best at it. You do not become the best if you sell false info and/or do not have your storys straight.

The point remains though. I wasn't using it as a specific example.

True Yoda is not necessarily that there has been other clone wars when says "begun this clone war has", but it is not really a clone war if one side uses driods and the other side uses clones. Why not call it the Republic Civil War? It makes more sense.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-03-17 03:21pm

First clone war is a war that has clones in major role (so the PT) and AOTC has some thing that suggests that there were Clone war(s) before the PT (the fact the Senate will not accept the use of clones). And the movies are G-level and TTT is C-level the only we include as much as possible of Clone Wars data in TTT is to assume that it's a bit inaccurate (the rest of TTT is irrelevant for this debate).

Kartr_Kana · Post by **Kartr_Kana** » 2005-03-17 03:33pm

Yes there have been previoius clone armys we know this because Lama Su said something to Obi-wan about this being the finest army they had ever made.

The way I have always seen the clone wars as was the republic was slowly losing control of the member systems. Member systems began fighting each other, some systems/groups have large armys (Trade Fed) while others had small ones (RSF) the small ones began buying clone armys from clone masters to defend themselves. The Republic was incapable or unwilling to stop the fighting. This is displayed in TPM. Finally after more then ten years of interfaction fighting one group has the power to defy the Republic. Previously all or most of the combatants had been members of the Republic. This group (the CIS) prepares to attack the Republic, the Republic activates its military just intime to prevent them from being anhiliated. This is the end of the Clone Wars because it galvanizes the Republic into action and it crushes the CIS and puts a stop to all the fighting. Unfortunatly while the Republics Clones are top of the line those used by other factions are not so they go crazy(which is not shown in the movies) and many jedi are killed trying to stop them. This is the dark time that Obi-wan mentioned. Then the Empire rose and began wiping out the Jedi.

This theory allows the movies and the Thrawn Trilogy to be correct. They just show different parts of the same series of wars.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-03-17 03:43pm

Doesn't work as in ROTS (spoiler)the Kamino clones have (hidden) progaming that prevents them disobey direct orders from Palpatine/Darth Sidious and he orders them to turn on the surviving Jedi (a lot of them had been killed in the war) killing almost every one of them.

Kartr_Kana · Post by **Kartr_Kana** » 2005-03-17 03:48pm

We already know that they ordered the clones before the Republic needed them but after the first conflicts started. So why does it not work?

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2005-03-17 03:49pm

Kartr_Kana wrote:We already know that they ordered the clones before the Republic needed them but after the first conflicts started. So why does it not work?

Because Palpatine ordered the clones to be made in time for a confrontation he would start.

Kartr_Kana · Post by **Kartr_Kana** » 2005-03-17 03:52pm

Does not mean that there were other wars being fought between other factions. It just means that he used it as an excuse to create his own army.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2005-03-18 01:56pm

Captain Cyran wrote:
Molyneux wrote:
Captain Cyran wrote: Dude, for one you're using Yoda's grammer as a measuring stick. And like Wraith said, the use of "this" does not always mean there have been many before it. For example, 1904(?) Yoda says "Begun, this World War has." Do you automatically assume that there have been World Wars before it?
Umm...they didn't call it a "World War" until the second one. They just called it the Great War, because they thought it really was the war to end all other wars...a lot of people didn't think that another conflict that big would ever be allowed to occur again.
The point remains though. I wasn't using it as a specific example.

I know, I'm just an accuracy-bitch...

Captain Cyran · Post by **Captain Cyran** » 2005-03-19 12:48am

And on a similar note, all that debate was for nothing. Just finished watching AotC. The quote is "Begun the Clone War has."

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-03-19 12:56am

I found that so irksome. The clones have not been the defining element of the Clone Wars. They're the backbone of the GAR, sure, but the war has been a conflict at one level between the CIS and the Republic, and between Sidious, Dooku, the renegade Jedi and the Jedi Council on another.

It was a neat twist on Lucas' part to steer us away from the common conception that the Clone Wars involved some other faction or outside party attacking the Republic with an army composed of clones, but it kind of robs the title of its meaning.