"Imperial sensors can't detect gravity", says this

[Tribun]

I'm currently in a bit of struggle with Newland of th strek-v-swars board. And despite me not very experinced in SW tech not in debate, Newland's leaps in logic are really easy to detect for me.

But with a statement he really made me wonder of his debate skills.

Newland said:

You have not read the EGWT. I'll directly quote some of what it has to say on Imperial cloaks.

"Starships cloaked ny an Imperial cloaking device could only be detected by an expensive and rare crystal gravfield trap (CGT) scanner, which identifies gravitational fluctuations created by any large mass." (The New Essential Guide to Weapons And Technology, pg. 115.)

Clearly, regular sensors aren't going to be detecting gravity fields created by large masses.

http://www.strek-v-swars.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=158

I hope you can see what is wrong with that. And maybe can help me show my errors when trying to debate him.

[Jaepheth]

from what I remember that sounds right.

Though it would be a leap in logic to assume that just because it's expensive means it's not standard on a capital ship (it's also a leap to assume it is)

But it sounds to me as though they're admitting an Imperial cloaking device would be wholly indetectable by any Federation scanning tech

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

I guess the "expensive" part is pretty correct. But hey, AMRAAM missiles are also expensive, for all that matter.

His "rare" arguments, on the other hand, is pretty bullshit. Or at least very exagerrated. Probably you may want to find more sources about how "rare and expensive" this CGT sensor is.

The rest of it is nothing more than playing Captain Obvious.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

... even the civilian ships got sensors able to detect mass shadows and bring the ship out of hyperspace.

Besides, it was explicitly stated in DFR that if the ship was under power, drive emissions could be tracked.

[NecronLord]

Though it would be a leap in logic to assume that just because it's expensive means it's not standard on a capital ship (it's also a leap to assume it is)

It isn't. The entire New Republic Coruscant Sector Fleet didn't have one.

[NecronLord]

... even the civilian ships got sensors able to detect mass shadows and bring the ship out of hyperspace.

Detecting the large mass of a ship and the much larger mass of a planetary body are entirely different things.

[Darth Fanboy]

Trek cloak such as Romulans and Klingons have is completely different though than Imperial Cloak in terms of how it works and what it does, or so I've been led to believe.

[Darth Fanboy]

Edit to the above post:

I guess what i'm saying is that for him to use the EGWT quote doesn't apply to Trek tech because frankly just because they are both "cloaking devices" doesn't make them the same.

[PainRack]

DFR: mass shadow of a comet is sufficient to bring a ship out from hyperspace(ergo, ship gravitic sensor must be delicate enough to detect such comets)

Han Solo: Rebel Dawn: Lando describes how pulling a large asteroid is sufficient to trip the safety systems of a hyperdrive.

In the early NJO, where they were staging recon at Sernipidal and other places, it is specifically mentioned that grav sensors didn't detect any YV ships, although it qualified with the statement that they could be hiding in gravity wells. This establishes that SW definitely has light-years gravitic sensor technology.

As for the cloaking devices, cloaking devices operate by using gravity to warp space around itself, thus preventing others from detecting it. A CGT counters this by being able to detect such gravitic manipulation, not because it specifically detects gravity.

[Tribun]

PainRack, can I copy and paste this? I want to use it to destroy Newlands stupid claims in debate.

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

In the early NJO when this one NR Bothan Assault Cruiser is conducting recon of one system, their grav sensors apparently can accurately tell the difference between asteroids and Yuuzhan Vong ships as the sensor operator notes that they arent detecting any anomalous mass readings in the system or any that would be hiding in an asteroid field.

[Alyeska]

It would seem that post ROTJ the level of accuracy and detection values in standard gravitic sensors in SW ships was not capable of detecting cloaked ships. This makes CGTs very important. However, by the time of NJO, the accuracy and detection capabilities seem to have become accurate enough to work against the Vong.

[Connor MacLeod]

IIRC the CGT sensors were considered a standard part of a starship's sensor package in the Star Wars Sourcebook. It required powerful and dedicated arrays to detect cloaked ships, but could only do so within "thousands' of kilometers of the CGT-equipped ship.

Also, I dob elieve the "Far Orbit Project" describes CGT sensors as part of an Escort frigate.

[Batman]

Let's take a look at the quote, shall we?

You have not read the EGWT. I'll directly quote some of what it has to say on Imperial cloaks.

"Starships cloaked ny an Imperial cloaking device could only be detected by an expensive and rare crystal gravfield trap (CGT) scanner, which identifies gravitational fluctuations created by any large mass." (The New Essential Guide to Weapons And Technology, pg. 115.)

Clearly, regular sensors aren't going to be detecting gravity fields created by large masses.

Consider me nitpicky, but 'detect' isn't quite the same as 'identify' now is it?
Thermometers are obviously able to detect heat. Doesn't mean they can identify the source.

[Gorefiend]

"Starships cloaked by an Imperial cloaking device could only be detected by an expensive and rare crystal gravfield trap (CGT) scanner, which identifies gravitational fluctuations created by any large mass."

hold on... if i read this right, it is just saying that the cgt is just needed to find cloaked things (the nr used it to get the cloaked asteroids that thrawn dropped in orbit above coruscant) and nothing about detecting gravity in general. The cgt is just far more sensitive than any normal sensor set and can thus even detected cloaked ships by their gravitational fluctuations.

[Gorefiend]

PS: if you drop a cloaked asteroid on a hyperspace lane any ship going in that lane while most likely just crash into it without even knowing what hit it, because it’s normal sensors won’t be able to detect the cloaked mass shadow. btw. that would be a pretty mean trick to take out trade in a system ^^

[Tribun]

Newland already goes on my nerves with his new reply. Mabe I won't even bother responding, it already becomes tiresome, especially since he seems fond of the quote-mania.

To make it short, he accuses me of not reading his answers, that I'm wrong anyway and so on.

I wonder why I even had bothered to sign up there.

[Lord of the Farce]

PS: if you drop a cloaked asteroid on a hyperspace lane any ship going in that lane while most likely just crash into it without even knowing what hit it, because it’s normal sensors won’t be able to detect the cloaked mass shadow. btw. that would be a pretty mean trick to take out trade in a system ^^

*Points up at PainRack's post*

Also, quote (link) courtesy of SirNitram:

Crystal Gravfield Traps (CGTs): These expensive sensors utitize a synthetic crystal grid to defect gravitic field fluctuations. High quality CGTs can detect and identify any fluctuation in the gravity field for hundreds ot thousands of kilometers around.

CGTs can be blocked by the presence of mass. For example, a CGT will strongly register a nearby planet's presence, but may miss a ship in orbit on the other side of the planet.

Pretty damned clear cut, eh?

[Lord Revan]

Aren't Trek cloaks some kind sub-space distorsion anyway, wouldn't it be possible to trak the cloak itself instead of trying to find the ship (we do know that SW sensors are more accurate), there's no need for CGT sensor.

[Tribun]

Ok, I've made my decision.
From now on I simply ignore him. Newland is not worth the bother. Of course he will claim victory, but I don't care.

[Praxis]

I'm currently in a bit of struggle with Newland of th strek-v-swars board. And despite me not very experinced in SW tech not in debate, Newland's leaps in logic are really easy to detect for me.

But with a statement he really made me wonder of his debate skills.

Newland said:

You have not read the EGWT. I'll directly quote some of what it has to say on Imperial cloaks.

"Starships cloaked ny an Imperial cloaking device could only be detected by an expensive and rare crystal gravfield trap (CGT) scanner, which identifies gravitational fluctuations created by any large mass." (The New Essential Guide to Weapons And Technology, pg. 115.)

Clearly, regular sensors aren't going to be detecting gravity fields created by large masses.

http://www.strek-v-swars.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=158

I hope you can see what is wrong with that. And maybe can help me show my errors when trying to debate him.

NO NO NO.

He takes the fact that they can't detect the gravity generated by a STAR DESTROYER (a 1.6 km vessel) when it's cloaked, and then applies that to say that they cannot detect gravity fields created by large masses.

By that stupid logic, Star Trek ships can't detect gravity either, because hey, they can't pick up a cloaked BOP!


The gravity given off by a Star Destroyer is INCREDIBLY small. It wouldn't move a dust particle. Otherwise every building in New York would be pulling each other down. So just because they can't detect this incredibly small, almost unnoticeable amount of gravity the ISD has, doesn't mean they can't detect the gravity of, say, a PLANET.

[Darth Servo]

Whats wrong with it is he assumes that just because fancy equipment is needed to detect the tiny gravity produced by a starship, that no other equipment can detect the massive gravity of say a planet or larger object. Its a typical "simply worry about the TYPE of substance and ignore the question of magnitude" bullshit that idiot Trekkies continually try and pull.

[Praxis]

Yeah, the reasoning is sorta like this.

"My shotgun cannot damage a tank. Therefore, the shotgun must be useless, so it won't harm my cat if I shoot it."

[Praxis]

In the early NJO, where they were staging recon at Sernipidal and other places, it is specifically mentioned that grav sensors didn't detect any YV ships, although it qualified with the statement that they could be hiding in gravity wells. This establishes that SW definitely has light-years gravitic sensor technology.

Hey, this is off topic, but you just reminded me of something that I've been wanting to suggest as a good arguement about SW firepower.

In the first NJO book, Vector Prime (the one you are quoting), they are trying to figure out how to prevent a moon that is 50 kilometers in radius from smashing into a planet.

They're just throwing out any wild idea they can think of, and Anakin Solo says, "Uh, we could try blowing the moon up with missles?" and Han says, "No way, it'd take a Star Destroyer to blast this moon and there's nothing bigger than a fighter in this system" or something like that.

He specificly states a Star Destroyer could destroy a 50 km moon. Since the Enterprise couldn't destroy a 10km asteroid...

[Batman]

He specificly states a Star Destroyer could destroy a 50 km moon. Since the Enterprise couldn't destroy a 10km asteroid...

To ellaborate, Enterprise could have achieved 'destroy' by simply blowing the asteroid apart. As the purpose of destroying said moon was keeping it from harming the planet in Vector Prime, that means the bare-bones minimum on 'destroy' in that context is 'blow into pieces small enough that they'll burn up in the atmosphere'...
Which, if Mike's asteroid fragmentation calculator is to be believed (which I am in no way shape or form qualified to doubt) is easily within the power of an Acclamator in the first place