A very crippled DSII reaches earth's orbit

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-03-23 03:32pm

It all depends on whether the Feds underestimate the Death Star.

If they do, they will probably do the natural thing -- surround the Death Star with fortifications and wait. If they are unaware of how powerful a Death Star is, they are dead.

If Q makes them aware that the Death Star could romp through the galaxy destroying anything it wanted being impervious, then the first solutions would be technobabble solutions. Everything from transporters, tractor beams, warp fields and whatever else they can think of will be tried. None of these will work, since transporters will not penetrate thick armor and tractor beams/warp fields failed against far less massive objects.

When it fails, it might be too late. If the Feds have a reasonable person leading the effort who does not rely on technobabble, then the best solution is to try and bore through a weak point (hangar door) with massed photon torpedo fire. If DS9 has five thousand photon torpedoes, then over a month assuming the Federation doesn't dally, it could be possible to fire tens of thousands to millions of torpedoes, again assuming the Federation has such a large stockpile ready.

Brian

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-03-23 03:42pm

Btw, Darth_Zod, that's one hell of a WTF typo

originally, and then one hell of a ROTFL one, as (ignoring the typo) it's true for both movies

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-03-23 03:42pm

And in other news, Julius Caesar's army was able to capture an M1 tank that was out of gas, ammunition, its armor half rusted, etc.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-03-23 03:49pm

Batman wrote:Btw, Darth_Zod, that's one hell of a WTF typo originally, and then one hell of a ROTFL one, as (ignoring the typo) it's true for both movies

huh?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-03-23 03:51pm

Darth_Zod wrote:
Batman wrote:Btw, Darth_Zod, that's one hell of a WTF typo originally, and then one hell of a ROTFL one, as (ignoring the typo) it's true for both movies
huh?

He's probably talking about this:

sauron was the only one who knew how to build the things, and he bit the dust at the end of Generations. i seriously doubt the feds would even be able to come close to replicating that technology.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-03-23 03:52pm

Darth Servo wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:
Batman wrote:Btw, Darth_Zod, that's one hell of a WTF typo originally, and then one hell of a ROTFL one, as (ignoring the typo) it's true for both movies
huh?
He's probably talking about this:

sauron was the only one who knew how to build the things, and he bit the dust at the end of Generations. i seriously doubt the feds would even be able to come close to replicating that technology.

ah. yeah, well, however the hell you spell that scientist's name.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-03-23 03:53pm

Darth_Zod wrote:
Batman wrote:Btw, Darth_Zod, that's one hell of a WTF typo originally, and then one hell of a ROTFL one, as (ignoring the typo) it's true for both movies
huh?

Soren was the only one who could built that torpedo, and died at the end
(ST:G)
Sauron was the only one who could build the One Ring, and 'died' at the end (LOTR:ROTK)
Reread your post. Pay attention to how you spelled Soren

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-03-23 03:55pm

Batman wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:
Batman wrote:Btw, Darth_Zod, that's one hell of a WTF typo originally, and then one hell of a ROTFL one, as (ignoring the typo) it's true for both movies
huh?
Soren was the only one who could built that torpedo, and died at the end
(ST:G)
Sauron was the only one who could build the One Ring, and 'died' at the end (LOTR:ROTK)
Reread your post. Pay attention to how you spelled Soren

it's not my fault the two names sound similar.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-03-23 04:17pm

Why destroy it? Seriously, the OP says the DSII has no shields, so there are probably going to be places where you could beam troops through weak points in the hull (Palpatine's private chamber with its big window for instance). Does anybody have any figures on how many men the DSII carries? Because my approach would be to beam an army of troops into it and take it over. It'd probably be easier than destroying it, and think of it, if it works you get to keep the awesome unstoppable battlestation for yourself.
Also, are the crew of the DSII aware that their battlestation is going to magically become fully functional again in two months? If not they may be willing to negotiate.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2005-03-23 04:24pm

If this is an unshielded DS II with no TIEs to harrass the Feds then frankly the DS is toast. The armor may be uber strong, but as the station can't fight back...well dumping raw antimatter onto the surface will work better than any weapon they have. The armor's uberness means jack shit when it touches antimatter. It will take time to bore a controlled hole, but the Feds can certainly do it.

The Enterprise D is quite capable of dumping antimatter into space and it is hardly specialized to do this often. Developing a specialized mass driver would be elementary; there is no reason the Feds cannot pull this off which means unless it can be shown starwars armor resists non existence when contacting antimatter the station is toast. Taking away its ability to defend itself puts too much in the Fed's favor (as rare as those words are spoken).

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-03-23 04:29pm

Junghalli wrote:Why destroy it? Seriously, the OP says the DSII has no shields, so there are probably going to be places where you could beam troops through weak points in the hull (Palpatine's private chamber with its big window for instance).

No shields, engines, and weapons. NOT no power. Heavy armor, ECM & transporters easily disrupted by transformers/power sources means no or very little beaming. Not that beaming moderate numbers (no evidence for company size transporters) of redshirts with phasers into chokepoints held vy Stormies is a particularly smart idea.

Does anybody have any figures on how many men the DSII carries?

Does anybody know how many troops Earth has deploayable and what transporter capacity it has?

Because my approach would be to beam an army of troops into it and take it over.

You're kidding, right?

It'd probably be easier than destroying it,

THAT much is true...

and think of it, if it works you get to keep the awesome unstoppable battlestation for yourself.

That you may be to able to effectively operate 20,000 years down the line.

Also, are the crew of the DSII aware that their battlestation is going to magically become fully functional again in two months? If not they may be willing to negotiate.

Whatever for? They still have power, life support, interial defenses (if any), several thousand small craft that in groups can make mincemeat out of Feddie capships, infantry that makes mincemeat out of severly superior numbers of redshirts...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2005-03-23 04:32pm

Alyeska wrote:DS9 had evidence of improved Genesis devices when a scientist used a device containing proto-matter to reignite a dead star. And he was considered the best teraformer in the Federation.

Anyway, consider this. Armor is located only at certain points. I doubt the Tie hangars have quite the armor the rest of the station has. Attack the weak points to bore your way in.

Kind of like how shooting into the hanger on a WW2 battleship provides an unobstructed path to the ships magazines and other vital spaces? I don't think so. Logically the Death Star would have an armored deck under all of its surface installations, which would be the functional equivalent of superstructure. That would allow them to design the surface however they wanted, while having a minimal of holes in the deck armor, and with vital systems which run above the armor encased in their own protective boxes.

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-03-23 04:33pm

Dr. Tolian Soran, actually.

Anyway, how certain is it that the Federation would evacuate the Sol system then blow it up? When have we seen them resort to such desperate actions?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-03-23 04:38pm

Firefox wrote:Dr. Tolian Soran, actually.

Anyway, how certain is it that the Federation would evacuate the Sol system then blow it up? When have we seen them resort to such desperate actions?

they'd probably surrender before doing so. they're too sentimental and not likely to resort to such desperate tactics.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-03-23 04:41pm

And that assumes they actually have the capability to evacuate in any reasonable timeframe in the first case.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-03-23 04:48pm

Junghalli wrote:Does anybody have any figures on how many men the DSII carries?

A lot more than the Federation can send in. Plus war droids. And as seen in AOTC, SW war droids have automatic weapons. Just try and imagine Fed troops with hand guns facing the Sci-fi equivalent of machine guns.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2005-03-23 04:53pm

Does anybody have any figures on how many men the DSII carries?

Well, using logic I would say, much more than the solar system has inhabitants. I can imagine a number of ~100 billions at least.

I have heared that the DS I was outfitted with fuel and supplies for several years. This will undoubtly be also true for the DS II, so the Feds can't simply wait for them running out of supplies.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-03-23 05:21pm

Batman wrote:No shields, engines, and weapons. NOT no power. Heavy armor, ECM & transporters easily disrupted by transformers/power sources means no or very little beaming.

In that case they could try doing it the old fashion way (forcing their way in through the outer hull). The DSII may have uber-armor but there have to be some weak points where penetration can be made (doors, shuttle bays, vents of various kinds). My approach would be to have relatively small forces secure bridgeheads in such areas and then set up transporter platforms in those bridgeheads or just outside the station to bring up huge numbers of troops to do the heavy work of taking over the station.

Does anybody know how many troops Earth has deploayable and what transporter capacity it has?

There's no cannon statements that I can recall. If you add together all the armies of all the individual nation states today that would probably be a good baseline to start from.

You're kidding, right?

Why? It's probably easier than destroying it outright, and you get to keep this incredible battlestation for yourself when you're done. The thing is, as huge as the DSII is I can actually imagine it having a bigger crew compliment than Earth's army.

That you may be to able to effectively operate 20,000 years down the line.

No, you don't actually have to understand a technology to operate it. You just have to figure out which buttons to push. I have only a vague understanding of how my computer works, but I can operate it just fine.
Of course that means that you loose the DSII as soon as it runs out of fuel or something breaks. But think about it: with the DSII the Feds could bring the Romulans and the Dominion to their knees in a matter of days. Give it a few months supply of fuel and they could eradicate the Borg as well. The fact they can't repair or refuel the DSII means that they have a narrow window of opportunity in which they can use it, but it doesn't mean it's useless to them.
And that's not even getting into the tech advantages they'll probably get from analyzing and reverse engineering Wars tech. Sure, like you said it'll be a long time before they can build a DS themselves, but they don't need Wars uber-firepower, they only need to improve their tech base past other Trekverse powers.

Whatever for? They still have power, life support, interial defenses (if any), several thousand small craft that in groups can make mincemeat out of Feddie capships, infantry that makes mincemeat out of severly superior numbers of redshirts...

There are various rewards I could think up. Promise them a high position in the Federation heirarchy, or money, or a new planet, or stewardship of the new territories you're going to conquer if they let you use the DSII etc.

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-03-23 05:32pm

No, you don't actually have to understand a technology to operate it. You just have to figure out which buttons to push. I have only a vague understanding of how my computer works, but I can operate it just fine.

And what happens when your computer breaks down? You can call someone who knows the technology, right?

Your analogy falls apart when you consider the technology disparity. Okay, so they can push some buttons. What happens when things start wearing down? How do they plan to replace them or fill in their functions? How about adequately crewing it (assuming it's in the tens of billions, you'd need to transfer entire planetary populations onto the station)?

Your plan also depends on establishing reliable beach heads to invade the station, which I doubt is feasible, given the durability of the DS's armor (find "weak spots"? What if those weak spots are still too strong for Federation technology to defeat?) and onboard defenses.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-03-23 05:33pm

Firefox wrote:
No, you don't actually have to understand a technology to operate it. You just have to figure out which buttons to push. I have only a vague understanding of how my computer works, but I can operate it just fine.
And what happens when your computer breaks down? You can call someone who knows the technology, right?

Your analogy falls apart when you consider the technology disparity. Okay, so they can push some buttons. What happens when things start wearing down? How do they plan to replace them or fill in their functions? How about adequately crewing it (assuming it's in the tens of billions, you'd need to transfer entire planetary populations onto the station)?

Your plan also depends on establishing reliable beach heads to invade the station, which I doubt is feasible, given the durability of the DS's armor (find "weak spots"? What if those weak spots are still too strong for Federation technology to defeat?) and onboard defenses.

they also have to know which buttons to push in the first place. it's not like the knowledge is going to magically spring into their minds.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2005-03-23 05:34pm

IIRC the DS1 had over a million crew, the DS2 being much larger would have significantly more. Does the Federation have a million security officers to call on?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-03-23 05:35pm

Lord Pounder wrote:IIRC the DS1 had over a million crew, the DS2 being much larger would have significantly more. Does the Federation have a million security officers to call on?

they'd need at least two million in case of the DS1, given standard redshirt competence.

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-03-23 05:46pm

Another thing to remember is that they'd have to train the lot of them. My "whole planetary populations" statement was a bit misleading. Imagine the time it would take to specially train and equip the crew.

And that's after moving to board the station, penetrating defenses, killing/capturing the entire crew, learning how things work.....

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-03-23 05:48pm

Firefox wrote:And what happens when your computer breaks down? You can call someone who knows the technology, right?
Your analogy falls apart when you consider the technology disparity. Okay, so they can push some buttons. What happens when things start wearing down? How do they plan to replace them or fill in their functions? How about adequately crewing it (assuming it's in the tens of billions, you'd need to transfer entire planetary populations onto the station)?

I adressed this already. The Feds have a narrow window in which the DSII will be useful to them, before it starts to break down or run out of fuel. Once that happens it'll be good for nothing more than having a lot of technical people run over it looking for what few useful scraps of Wars technology the Feds might be able to replicate.
The Death Star was designed to go for fairly long periods of time without resupply. It probably carries at least a few months worth of fuel IIRC. Think of what you could do to the other Trekverse powers in a couple of months with a functional DSII. Most of the Federation's enemies could be brought to their knees in days. Even the Borg could probably be eradicated in less than a year.
The biggest problem (aside from taking the DSII in the first place) would indeed be training people to run it. This is why I'd rather negotiate if I could. But figuring out how to run the DS would be much easier than figuring out how to build a new one. They could probably learn a good deal of it from interrogating captured crewmen.

Lord Pounder wrote:IIRC the DS1 had over a million crew, the DS2 being much larger would have significantly more. Does the Federation have a million security officers to call on?

If Earth has the same population as it does now I don't see why they shouldn't have at least several tens of millions of ready combatants to call on. How big are all the armies of all modern day nations put together?

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-03-23 05:53pm

Junghalli wrote:I adressed this already. The Feds have a narrow window in which the DSII will be useful to them, before it starts to break down or run out of fuel. Once that happens it'll be good for nothing more than having a lot of technical people run over it looking for what few useful scraps of Wars technology the Feds might be able to replicate.

Again, that's assuming they can get penetrate the armor, crush the defenders, disable booby traps and war droids, figure out how things work......

The Death Star was designed to go for fairly long periods of time without resupply. It probably carries at least a few months worth of fuel IIRC. Think of what you could do to the other Trekverse powers in a couple of months with a functional DSII. Most of the Federation's enemies could be brought to their knees in days. Even the Borg could probably be eradicated in less than a year.

You missed where everyone has pointed out that it would take the Federation forever to learn and understand the technology to the point of even knowing how to use it.

The biggest problem (aside from taking the DSII in the first place) would indeed be training people to run it. This is why I'd rather negotiate if I could.

Negotiate surrender? To the crew of the Death Star? You understand how mind-numbingly stupid that argument is, don't you?

But figuring out how to run the DS would be much easier than figuring out how to build a new one. They could probably learn a good deal of it from interrogating captured crewmen.

Assuming they could capture them alive, get them to talk, translate Galactic Basic, comprehend what they're saying.....

If Earth has the same population as it does now I don't see why they shouldn't have at least several tens of millions of ready combatants to call on. How big are all the armies of all modern day nations put together?

And every single one of those combatants is well trained to man a space station 20,000 years more advanced than the technology they're used to?