What changes would you make to the Post ROTJ EU?

[Crown]

Therefore we ought to ignore the fact that it is stupid and that the Death Star represents a canoncial backing for realistic scaling?

I'm quite astounded you're presented both sets of evidence in the canon, know the background information, and are whining that we ought to skew realism and the set supporting it in favor of the minimalism, no matter who churned it out? What kind of silly Golden Mean is that?

You said; that Zahn's books are 'almost a different universe in their outlook than the movies', which is patently false. Am I saying that he isn't a minimalist? No. I'm saying he restricted himself to the 'feel' of Goerge's creation, for good or ill.

Look, stop with the apologetics. We've all seen concrete, undeniable proof that the galaxy can churn out the equivalent of millions of ISDs per month. Wartime production should've made the Dark Force look like insignificant.

The entire Dark Force is much less volumnous and much less massive than HIMS Executor, which was constructed in a month or two.

All Zahn had was George's work and WEG, when exactly did we find out about the industrial out put of ISD per month in the literature Primus? Again, I don't care if you paint Zahn as a minimalist, we are discussing your 'almost a different universe in their outlook than the movies' line.

So we should favor this side and claim that it shouldn't be otherwise?

NO YOU DUMBASS. The above is concrete proof that the CREATOR of the fucking universe in question is a minimalist HIMSELF. How can another author who is also a 'minimalist' possibly write books which are 'almost completely different in their outlook with the movies' when the funcking movies themselves are minimalistic in practice? The fucking statement doesn't make sense.

You're a flipped out ideologue with an ax to grind because you don't like the trash I've said about Zahn. Well too bad, you're being very unreasonable.

Pot please meet kettle.

If I was saying; Zahn's not a minimalist, you might have something approaching a point, all you have there is an appeal to motive, and a poor ad hominem fallacy.

Yes? The canon presents a Coruscant that, if .0001% were drafted, it would overwhelm the clones that Thrawn churned out?

So? I'm not arguing that Zahn's books weren't minimalistic in scope, I'm arguing that your statement of Zahn's books being 'almost completely different universe in outlook compared to the movies' has preciesly zero fucking evidence based on fact.

Can we infer the population of Coruscant? Sure. Can we extrapolate how many ISD's can be built from 1 DS? Absolutely. Does any of this change that the creator of the SW universe is also a minimalist, and his movies are basically also minimalistic? No.

What kind of logic is this? "George said something stupid, so when Timothy Zahn says something stupid (and it was before GL did, mind you) it isn't stupid"? Am I understanding correctly?

Its not an either or thing. They're both stupid, and at all times possible the literature should strive for the more intelligent presentation in the canon, not the other side. I really can't believe you're arguing what you claim to be.

If you agree that they are both stupid, and that they both are minimalists, then how the fuck can you use that one criteria to decry Zahn's books as 'almost totally different in outlook than the movies'? THIS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. Do you understand now?

Simple, you're nitpicking one incident over the Death Star, the description of the Empire as galaxy-wide, the thousands and thousands of warship in the ROTS battle, the presentation of Coruscant in the films, the presentation of the Executor in the films, the presentation of the number of worlds in the Empire...

Jesus H Christ on a pogo stick, we're lucky that we only have that one fucking reference as it's about the only time GL has actually asigned hard numbers to anything. Do you think for a second that if GL were to be asked how many ISD does the Empire have, he'll come up with a number greater than 25,000? No me either. Infact I'd die of shock if he even came up with a number close to that.

Just look at this very site, and its presentation of the clear canonical evidence which predominantly shows the Empire as a juggernaught almost beyond comprehension. You choose a single factoid and take it alone, and say that suddenly what amounts to a minority of a single command ship's mass in the Imperial Navy ought to be presented as a force to be reckonned with, that a tiny fraction of less than one percent of the population of a single world ought to be presented as an unprecedented threat, and on and on. Why? Because GL said the clone army had 1.2 million troops.

I'm not fucking arguing that. The crux of my arguement is that the movies present evidence that when closer examined do unequivably lead to some massive numbers for the galactic civilization, but this evidence is non-fucking intuitive. Meaning for a guy who had WEG to start with and the OT, his books fit in almost perfectly with the same universe.

If you think you could produce a cogent argument from a single factoid that makes Timothy Zahn's novels well representative of what is presented in the films, you ought to have told some Trekkies back in the height of the vs. debate, because they sure could have used that over what Mike's website presents with the canon.

I honestly have no idea what the fuck you're rambling on about here. Did I say anywhere that it was wrong to use the DS's volume to smack idiots down for not properly grasping the scale of the Star Warsverse? Nope, I don't think so.

The use of a single factoid to the exclusion of all other data is nitpicking, buddy. It alone does not make Zahn's work representative in scale of GL's canon, especially at the time it was written.

We aren't discussing whether or not it was minimalistic you dolt. We are discussing your point about his work 'almost a different universe in their outlook than the movies', when the bleeding movies themselves are created by a minimalistic mind.

So what.

Zahn chose to write a book set in full galactic civil war between participants occupying and controlling large fraction of an entire spiral galaxy. If he did not account for this more appropriately, that's his fault, and he ought to have. That's all I'm saying.

If he wanted to write about another crisis or something and leave pan-galactic war to someone else, he should have.

And I'm not arguing that he isn't a minimalist, I'm arguing that you harping on the fact that he is as being equal to his work being set in a 'almost different universe than the movies' when the movies themselves are created by a minimalist.

Subjective feeling over hard fact is not a justification which flies. You may argue that no author was going to do that work, and you may be right. The fact of the matter is objective evidence is presented in the films, especially the films available when Zahn wrote his novels, which in comparison to the plot devices he used makes for a scarcely believable stress on suspension of disbelief.

Jesus this is redundant. Your arguement in this paragraph is particularly funny when you look at what you're arguing; minimalism = different SW universe in outlook.

Nevermind the fact that we have the FUCKING CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE being a minimalist himself. For fucks sake, your entire arguement falls apart into dust if we add another 1 or 2 zeros at the end of the Katana's fleet number. THIS IS HOW PETTY YOU'RE BEING. For you the only criteria is the numbers for what 'feels' like Star Wars, which is a fucking riot in its self, what did you do stand up in the middle of AotC and yell; That's not Star Wars!!1 at the screen?

I don't judge a fucking story as to whether it is consistant in the Star Wars universe based on numbers (although intelligent numbers are always welcome and should be encouraged), I judge them on their fucking plot. Their style*.

You're pissed because quite possibly the most famous and well known books in the SW EU, didn't have the fucking numbers you wanted. Well boo-hoo, AotC didn't have them either, we rationalise the author's (and in this case the creator's minimalism mistakes) and move the fuck on. But oh no, not you. You are, how did you so adequately put it, oh yes; You're a flipped out ideologue with an ax to grind because you don't like the attention about Zahn. Well too bad, you're being very unreasonable.











*There is, of course a limit to this, I believe it was KJA who wrote the stupidity that one single SSD nearly bankrupted the entire Empire, dispite the fact that you could see the sheer size of the DSII next to the Executor, and it would take the deductive reasoning of a two year old to realise what a stupid fucking comment that was. But then again KJA stories themselves just suck, so really I'd have to read it in a good story to know whether or not it would be a deal breaker or not. After all I sat through the 1 million clones in AotC.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You said; that Zahn's books are 'almost a different universe in their outlook than the movies', which is patently false. Am I saying that he isn't a minimalist? No. I'm saying he restricted himself to the 'feel' of Goerge's creation, for good or ill.

Which is a really bad reason for his pretty blatent minimalism, THAT'S my point. As for the different universe outlook, Zahn nearly feels like Star Trek to me. Maybe you disagree. But that's subjective, so I don't really care.

[Crown]

You said; that Zahn's books are 'almost a different universe in their outlook than the movies', which is patently false. Am I saying that he isn't a minimalist? No. I'm saying he restricted himself to the 'feel' of Goerge's creation, for good or ill.

Which is a really bad reason for his pretty blatent minimalism, THAT'S my point. As for the different universe outlook, Zahn nearly feels like Star Trek to me. Maybe you disagree. But that's subjective, so I don't really care.

If that's your criteria for judging an author's work, then I can't argue against it to change that.

[Gustav32Vasa]

an ISD mark 3 with a grav well projector.

Wait, there were ISD IIIs?! With gravity well projectors?

There was one experimental one by NJO. It was Bel Iblis' flagship. It had a single gravity well projector (as opposed to four in an Interdictor and none in an ISD II). And it kicked the pants off Vong ships.

Dont forget the Mon Mothma. It was also a ISD mk III.

[FTeik]

Weren't those called Rejunivator-Class. The Non-Dominator-Star Destroyers with gravity-wave-projectors?