Moderator: Vympel
That with the million crew is jsut a example of totally flawed tech books. Given the size of DS I (160km), it would need billions of crew.Lord Pounder wrote:IIRC the DS1 had over a million crew, the DS2 being much larger would have significantly more. Does the Federation have a million security officers to call on?
Goddamn, for the third time you don't have to know how a machine works in order to operate it. If your car broke down could you fix it? What about your computer? What about your TV? Most of the devices you use every day you probably would have no idea how to build and repair yourself, but you do know which buttons to push. That's the level of knowledge the Feds would need to run a fully operational, mint condition Death Star (which, supposedly, they would get in two months if I read the OP correctly). It won't stay operational for long, but at least for a couple of months they'd be the most powerful race in the galaxy by virtue of owning it. I'm not saying they'd effortlessly learn how to operate it, but unlike learning how to repair or build it I don't see why simply learning what switches to throw is such a totally infeasable goal for them.Firefox wrote:You missed where everyone has pointed out that it would take the Federation forever to learn and understand the technology to the point of even knowing how to use it.
Depends, are they aware that their weapons, shields, and propulsion will be restored in two months? If they think they're permanently disabled in a strange galaxy they might find selling out to the Feds better than spending the rest of their lives stuck on the DSII in orbit of Earth.Firefox wrote:Negotiate surrender? To the crew of the Death Star? You understand how mind-numbingly stupid that argument is, don't you?
Capturing some alive shouldn't be too hard, the Empire is fascists not religious fanatics or SST Bug type creatures who will always fight to the death. Learning the language is hard to say, although given the wanktastic powers of the universal translator (cannonically demonstrated to figure out alien tongues after a few sentences, yes I do know how ridiculous that sounds but we see it do that) it probably wouldn't be too difficult. Getting them to talk would likely be the hardest part, especially as the Feds probably wouldn't use very harsh methods knowing them.Firefox wrote:Assuming they could capture them alive, get them to talk, translate Galactic Basic, comprehend what they're saying.....
No, there I was adressing the issue of taking over the DS, not manning it. You wouldn't use common boot soldiers to man the DS anyway, that's totally outside their area of expertise. I'd be like having spaceship operators take part in ground battles...oh wait, never mind.Firefox wrote:And every single one of those combatants is well trained to man a space station 20,000 years more advanced than the technology they're used to?
Or possibly it was heavily automated. After all, in the long run giving it a good automation system is probably cheaper than paying the salaries of an entire planetary population's worth of sailors. Or possibly most of the mass of the DS is reactors, engines, and the superlaser, with only a very small part of it being habitable space.Tribun wrote:That with the million crew is jsut a example of totally flawed tech books. Given the size of DS I (160km), it would need billions of crew.
Um-Silence? The 'without the TIEs' is NOT an OP stipulation but a general agreement among posters because WITH them its a done deal. No way in hell. The OP specifically stated TIEs.The Silence and I wrote:Seriously, this is almost too easy without the TIEs.
Using that criteria, most Fed troops would get killed in the beam-over.Darth_Zod wrote:they'd need at least two million in case of the DS1, given standard redshirt competence.Lord Pounder wrote:IIRC the DS1 had over a million crew, the DS2 being much larger would have significantly more. Does the Federation have a million security officers to call on?
If your computer breaks down, how do you expect to repair it in order to operate it, without the requisite knowledge?Junghalli wrote:Goddamn, for the third time you don't have to know how a machine works in order to operate it. If your car broke down could you fix it? What about your computer? What about your TV? Most of the devices you use every day you probably would have no idea how to build and repair yourself, but you do know which buttons to push. That's the level of knowledge the Feds would need to run a fully operational, mint condition Death Star (which, supposedly, they would get in two months if I read the OP correctly).
Again, that's assuming they can learn how the thing runs to begin with....It won't stay operational for long, but at least for a couple of months they'd be the most powerful race in the galaxy by virtue of owning it.
Given the OP, I would assume the Imperials would attempt to repair the station, or at least get its external defenses operational.Depends, are they aware that their weapons, shields, and propulsion will be restored in two months? If they think they're permanently disabled in a strange galaxy they might find selling out to the Feds better than spending the rest of their lives stuck on the DSII in orbit of Earth.
How about loyalty to the Empire? They've been selected to man the Emperor's most powerful military installation. I would expect them to be at least a little fanatical in defending their station.Capturing some alive shouldn't be too hard, the Empire is fascists not religious fanatics or SST Bug type creatures who will always fight to the death. Learning the language is hard to say, although given the wanktastic powers of the universal translator (cannonically demonstrated to figure out alien tongues after a few sentences, yes I do know how ridiculous that sounds but we see it do that) it probably wouldn't be too difficult. Getting them to talk would likely be the hardest part, especially as the Feds probably wouldn't use very harsh methods knowing them.
Given the timetable in the OP, I doubt they would be able to do so. There are simply too many problems to solve.I'm not saying learning to man (not build, not repair, not understand, just push the buttons) the DSII would be easy, but I don't see why it would be impossible.
Wasn't the OP that after 2 months the DSII would become fully operational?Firefox wrote:If your computer breaks down, how do you expect to repair it in order to operate it, without the requisite knowledge?
OK, that would be difficult, but not impossible.Again, that's assuming they can learn how the thing runs to begin with....
The Feds could probably offer to help them. They likely wouldn't be able to volunteer much beyond extra welders and fitters, but it would ingratiate them to the DSII crew and whoever makes the decisions. Being cut off in a distant galaxy it's not as though they really have anywhere to go now. This, of course, assumes they don't know all the systems are going to kick back in within two months in which case I doubt the Imps will negotiate.Given the OP, I would assume the Imperials would attempt to repair the station, or at least get its external defenses operational.
Well, Tarkin was in charge of the DS1 it's hinted in places he had ambitions of overthrowing Palpatine. Anyway, the Emperor is a million light years away and they'll never see his face again in all likelyhood.How about loyalty to the Empire? They've been selected to man the Emperor's most powerful military installation. I would expect them to be at least a little fanatical in defending their station.
Just to clarify my point, the Feds don't have to learn how to fly the DSII within two months. They have to conquer it within two months (odd word to use for boarding a spacecraft, but the DSII is the size of a fucking country). Once they've taken over enough of it that it can't get away or blast Earth when it becomes operational again then they start worrying about what to do with it.Given the timetable in the OP, I doubt they would be able to do so. There are simply too many problems to solve.
The first question. Give them about a day to batter in one of the steel hatches with a really big rock or something. Actually killing or capturing the crew wouldn't take too long although they'd suffer casualties because submarine crews have pistols after all.In a similar vein, how easily do you think Roman troops would be able to capture an American nuclear submarine that magically appeared in one of their harbors, even though its propulsion and weapons disabled? Second, how easily do you think the Romans can learn how to and start operating the submarine?
THENwautd wrote:On a sunny day, Q appears before the UFP high command and says:
"Hi guys, remember when I introduced you to the Borg and all the fun we had?
Well, meet the Galactic Empire and their shiny new DSII. It will attack earth but the good news is that I temporarely disabled its shields, engines, superlaser and surface guns. However it's still fully garissoned but only their TIE fighters may leave the station (so no downright invasion of earth)
The bad news is that the DSII will be disabled for at least a month. After that I can't give any more promises. It can be another month, a year, a decade,..."
How long will it take for the Feds to do so much damage to the DSII that it can't treaten earth anymore? Or would it be less costly to not even try and just evacuate earth?
(ps. I dunno how long a DS can operate on its own but the DS garisson cannot starve to death - act of Q)
2 episodes is not a valid answer
The OT was altered.wautd wrote:how about
1) kill all the TIE's
2) destroy all the surface guns
3) somehow disable the superlaser (like somehow blocking the shaft, ram a fat shuttle in the superlaser tunnels or something
The DSII wont be destroyed but it cant treaten earth either anymore
"... about two months."Junghalli wrote:Wasn't the OP that after 2 months the DSII would become fully operational?
Given the technology and time disparities, it might as well be impossible.OK, that would be difficult, but not impossible.
Why do you continue to argue that the Empire would accept outside help in an alien galaxy?The Feds could probably offer to help them. They likely wouldn't be able to volunteer much beyond extra welders and fitters, but it would ingratiate them to the DSII crew and whoever makes the decisions. Being cut off in a distant galaxy it's not as though they really have anywhere to go now. This, of course, assumes they don't know all the systems are going to kick back in within two months in which case I doubt the Imps will negotiate.
Tarkin's hypothetical treachery is irrelevant. We're discussing the DSII, not DSI.Well, Tarkin was in charge of the DS1 it's hinted in places he had ambitions of overthrowing Palpatine. Anyway, the Emperor is a million light years away and they'll never see his face again in all likelyhood.
One month, and the DSII is much larger than a planetary nation-state.Just to clarify my point, the Feds don't have to learn how to fly the DSII within two months. They have to conquer it within two months (odd word to use for boarding a spacecraft, but the DSII is the size of a fucking country).
How can you be so sure? You're talking about HY 100 steel or greater. Tell me how they'd get the hatches open.The first question. Give them about a day to batter in one of the steel hatches with a really big rock or something. Actually killing or capturing the crew wouldn't take too long although they'd suffer casualties because submarine crews have pistols after all.
Bullshit. We're talking a disparity in technology of a similar scale. So what if the Federation is an interstellar organization? It doesn't have near the level of understanding of materials sciences, power generation and control systems, and weapons that the SW galaxy has.As for the second question, that's not really an applicable comparison.
Actually, technological disparities do not matter at all when it comes to the which-button-do-I-push level of knowledge. You could have a device which teleports you from one star system to another, and if it has only one button on it it's considerably easier to figure out than a car. You're confusing being able to repair and replicate a machine with just being able to operate a machine that is already fully functional.Firefox wrote:Given the technology and time disparities, it might as well be impossible.
Because the Federation may be able to offer them a more appealing future than spending their whole lives stuck in the DSII because its engines are totalled.Why do you continue to argue that the Empire would accept outside help in an alien galaxy?
It is not irrelevant in that it shows that disloyal officers can get into very high places, therefore destroying your argument that all the people on the DS must be fanatically loyal to the Empire (which they will likely never see again anyway as it's in a different galaxy).Tarkin's hypothetical treachery is irrelevant. We're discussing the DSII, not DSI.
A big enough rock might be able to dent the hinges after sufficient banging. If that doesn't work they could wait for the crew to starve.How can you be so sure? You're talking about HY 100 steel or greater. Tell me how they'd get the hatches open.
No, you failed to understand what I was saying. A Federation human will take a look at the DSII and at least understand that it's some form of technology that could eventually be understood and copied with sufficient time and work. A Roman would probably write off a nuclear sub as magic, so it wouldn't even occur to him to try to find the imperical principles behind how it works.Bullshit. We're talking a disparity in technology of a similar scale. So what if the Federation is an interstellar organization? It doesn't have near the level of understanding of materials sciences, power generation and control systems, and weapons that the SW galaxy has.
Again, assuming they can learn how to push the buttons, learn how to repair or replace damaged or worn-out hardware, etc.Junghalli wrote:Actually, technological disparities do not matter at all when it comes to the which-button-do-I-push level of knowledge.
Strawman. Imperial technology is decidedly more complicated than "only one button".You could have a device which teleports you from one star system to another, and if it has only one button on it it's considerably easier to figure out than a car.
Again, how do they learn how to operate the technology in a short time?You're confusing being able to repair and replicate a machine with just being able to operate a machine that is already fully functional.
What appealing future? Their station is still functional (albeit with no propulsion or weapons). Why should they give up their position to an alien, communistic government who they've never met?Because the Federation may be able to offer them a more appealing future than spending their whole lives stuck in the DSII because its engines are totalled.
Prove the commander is as disloyal as your hypothetical Tarkin.It is not irrelevant in that it shows that disloyal officers can get into very high places, therefore destroying your argument that all the people on the DS must be fanatically loyal to the Empire (which they will likely never see again anyway as it's in a different galaxy).
Then they'll have to wait a few months.A big enough rock might be able to dent the hinges after sufficient banging. If that doesn't work they could wait for the crew to starve.
So what if they "understand that it's some form of technology"? That's irrelevant unless they are on an equivalent level sufficient to allow them to even begin to understand the technology. To use an example with less of a disparity, how do you expect James Watt to understand a modern nuclear reactor?No, you failed to understand what I was saying. A Federation human will take a look at the DSII and at least understand that it's some form of technology that could eventually be understood and copied with sufficient time and work. A Roman would probably write off a nuclear sub as magic, so it wouldn't even occur to him to try to find the imperical principles behind how it works.
The OP said that the engines are temporarily disabled, not "totalled."Junghalli wrote: Because the Federation may be able to offer them a more appealing future than spending their whole lives stuck in the DSII because its engines are totalled.
And Tarkin is your only example? You can't say that something similar will occur in the DS II's situation if you only cite an example of a single man.It is not irrelevant in that it shows that disloyal officers can get into very high places, therefore destroying your argument that all the people on the DS must be fanatically loyal to the Empire (which they will likely never see again anyway as it's in a different galaxy).
And it's more than likely that the DS II will not seeing starvation till long after the one month period.A big enough rock might be able to dent the hinges after sufficient banging. If that doesn't work they could wait for the crew to starve.
...Maraxus wrote:Isn't the question why would the imperials let their major asset sit in the Sol system while its being bombarded with the entire federation navy? Why on earth wouldn't they just withdraw all their fighters, find a nice place to hide somewhere deep in the Milky Way, and just wait out the few months needed to get it back online?
Emphasis mine.wautd wrote:I temporarely disabled its shields, engines, superlaser and surface guns.
Well, more like how the Hornet died in WWII. A bomb flew down the ammo elevation in to the magizines and well, you get the idea. A one in a million shot, but damn it, it turned out to be that one in a million.Sea Skimmer wrote:Kind of like how shooting into the hanger on a WW2 battleship provides an unobstructed path to the ships magazines and other vital spaces?
They don't, but the hangars still tend to lead to the belly of a ship. They are still potential weak points. You don't try and attack through the most heavily armored locations, you hit the weak points. If you want to take the main core out, using the weakest surface area is your best bet.Sea Skimmer wrote:Kind of like how shooting into the hanger on a WW2 battleship provides an unobstructed path to the ships magazines and other vital spaces? I don't think so. Logically the Death Star would have an armored deck under all of its surface installations, which would be the functional equivalent of superstructure. That would allow them to design the surface however they wanted, while having a minimal of holes in the deck armor, and with vital systems which run above the armor encased in their own protective boxes.Alyeska wrote:DS9 had evidence of improved Genesis devices when a scientist used a device containing proto-matter to reignite a dead star. And he was considered the best teraformer in the Federation.
Anyway, consider this. Armor is located only at certain points. I doubt the Tie hangars have quite the armor the rest of the station has. Attack the weak points to bore your way in.
A completed DS2 would have thousands of incredibly high-powered tractor-beam emitters which it could use to tear approaching fleets apart, even without its surface guns.wautd wrote:On a sunny day, Q appears before the UFP high command and says:
"Hi guys, remember when I introduced you to the Borg and all the fun we had?
Well, meet the Galactic Empire and their shiny new DSII. It will attack earth but the good news is that I temporarely disabled its shields, engines, superlaser and surface guns. However it's still fully garissoned but only their TIE fighters may leave the station (so no downright invasion of earth)
The bad news is that the DSII will be disabled for at least a month. After that I can't give any more promises. It can be another month, a year, a decade,..."
How long will it take for the Feds to do so much damage to the DSII that it can't treaten earth anymore? Or would it be less costly to not even try and just evacuate earth?
(ps. I dunno how long a DS can operate on its own but the DS garisson cannot starve to death - act of Q)
2 episodes is not a valid answer
why do you think there are no TIEs?The Silence and I wrote: Marginally more serious, capture is likely not a feasible option. The best bet is to tow it away from Earth (so it will take time, they CAN do it) and destroy it with antimatter. Bore a hole that way to the core, and BOOM! Seriously, this is almost too easy without the TIEs.
Now that was how I would do it if I was in command. And I asked if it would be possible.The Silence and I wrote:THENwautd wrote:On a sunny day, Q appears before the UFP high command and says:
"Hi guys, remember when I introduced you to the Borg and all the fun we had?
Well, meet the Galactic Empire and their shiny new DSII. It will attack earth but the good news is that I temporarely disabled its shields, engines, superlaser and surface guns. However it's still fully garissoned but only their TIE fighters may leave the station (so no downright invasion of earth)
The bad news is that the DSII will be disabled for at least a month. After that I can't give any more promises. It can be another month, a year, a decade,..."
How long will it take for the Feds to do so much damage to the DSII that it can't treaten earth anymore? Or would it be less costly to not even try and just evacuate earth?
(ps. I dunno how long a DS can operate on its own but the DS garisson cannot starve to death - act of Q)
2 episodes is not a valid answer
The OT was altered.wautd wrote:how about
1) kill all the TIE's
2) destroy all the surface guns
3) somehow disable the superlaser (like somehow blocking the shaft, ram a fat shuttle in the superlaser tunnels or something
The DSII wont be destroyed but it cant treaten earth either anymore
... and still nuke Rome by pushing on the red button by accidentFirefox wrote:In a similar vein, how easily do you think Roman troops would be able to capture an American nuclear submarine that magically appeared in one of their harbors, even though its propulsion and weapons disabled? Second, how easily do you think the Romans can learn how to and start operating the submarine?Junghalli wrote:
And in any case, the outer shielding of the reactor itself is going to be armored (it has to be able to contain all that energy, after all) - so do they have anything capable of penetrating it?Sea Skimmer wrote:Kind of like how shooting into the hanger on a WW2 battleship provides an unobstructed path to the ships magazines and other vital spaces? I don't think so. Logically the Death Star would have an armored deck under all of its surface installations, which would be the functional equivalent of superstructure. That would allow them to design the surface however they wanted, while having a minimal of holes in the deck armor, and with vital systems which run above the armor encased in their own protective boxes.Alyeska wrote:DS9 had evidence of improved Genesis devices when a scientist used a device containing proto-matter to reignite a dead star. And he was considered the best teraformer in the Federation.
Anyway, consider this. Armor is located only at certain points. I doubt the Tie hangars have quite the armor the rest of the station has. Attack the weak points to bore your way in.
