A very crippled DSII reaches earth's orbit

[wautd]

There's more than just tractor beams. The DS2 is going to have assault transports and shuttles, regular shuttles, and possibly Strike Cruisers (the Death Star 1 carried a couple of those after all) There might even be blastboats or gunboats onboard.. maybe some corvettes.

Um... I dunno about you guys but... wouldn't the DSII have other support craft other than TIEs? Granted the amount would be much less but they could still defend the station. Plus there's the tractor beam emplacements, which would do a good job of destroying enemy ships.

Yes, but thats why I said that only the TIE's may leave the station

[wautd]

it is stated that the superlaser was rendered inoperational by blocking it up or slamming a ship into it.

No it's not. Just temporarely disabled by act of Q. I suggested the Feds may somehow perminantly disable the superlaser

[Sea Skimmer]

They don't, but the hangars still tend to lead to the belly of a ship.

By perhapes a few hundred meters and a trip hundreds of kilometers long. Its a nice start but its isn't going to be much of a gain.

They are still potential weak points.

As I recall ICS's page on the Star Destroyer says that the TIE hangers are armored to protect against explosions from proton bombs. That would suggest that they are not going to be major weak spots. If an ISD can spare the tonnage for armoring its hanger bays, certainly the DSII can do so as well. Its logical, if only to protect against an armed fighter or bomber crashing on landing.

You don't try and attack through the most heavily armored locations, you hit the weak points. If you want to take the main core out, using the weakest surface area is your best bet.

Yes it is, I'm just dubious as hangers being a weak spot. The bottom of the equatorial trench is probably the best bet. The attacking forces would have a fairly wide field of fire to work with shooting down into it, and it should represent the least possible depth of material, which must be penetrated to reach the reactor.

But I really do wonder if even a good sized fleet of Federation ships would have enough raw firepower for the job of blast through 400+ kilometers of Star Wars grade material. The DS2 could have armor hundreds of meters thick and it wouldn't be an unreasonable amount considering its size and mass. Heavily armored by Star Wars standards and this scale of construction has got to involve a massive thickness.

Well, more like how the Hornet died in WWII. A bomb flew down the ammo elevation in to the magizines and well, you get the idea. A one in a million shot, but damn it, it turned out to be that one in a million.

No... because that's not how Hornet was sunk. She infact proved practically unsinkable, taking four bombs and no less then sixteen torpedoes before sinking. The last four happened to be 24 inch Long Lances from a Japanese destroyer, because the American destroyers ordered to scuttle her ran out of torpedoes trying. Then even after several hundred rounds of 5-inch shellfire she was still afloat and they had to flee as Japanese surface forces where approaching. The IJN force actually briefly considered attempting to tow her back to base, but decided against trying when they approached closer and saw just how fully ablaze the vessel was.

In any case, bomb elevators on carriers have armored hatches where they pierce the deck, and measure only a few feet across in any case. It could happen, but one in a million is about right, with a bomb which is plunging exactly vertically. Even the Japanese carriers at Midway weren't so unlucky as to have that happen, none of them had a main magazine explode from any case. I actually can't think of any fleet carrier (I do know of CVL's and CVE's) which was destroyed by a bomb magazine detonating. Though of course many of them suffered explosions of bombs loaded on planes on the hanger or flight decks, and several more (and sometimes the same ships) where blown up by their aviation gasoline tanks exploding or filling the ship with vapor that then exploded. But that's why on decently designed carriers the aviation fuel tanks where surrounded with armor and or a jacket of water filled tanks.

[Fainaruhevun]

Oh... rightio then Wautd... I misinterpreted what you meant. Okay, so the Death Star doesn't have so much going for it. But it still wouldn't be overly easy to seize.

[Darth Wong]

Actually seizing a completed DS2, even with all of its defenses off-line, would be nigh-impossible. Even if you ignore the problem of trying to approach a ship that has thousands of tractor-beam emitters that can rip your ship to pieces and tens of thousands of fighters carrying all manner of weaponry (including heavier models which can carry heavy-ass missiles) and somehow assume that you can magically get troops onboard, you're looking at the ultimate room-to-room combat nightmare. Any attempt to actually take DS2 would be a meat-grinder the likes of which the Federation has never seen. Their best hope would be to try and blow such a big hole in its armour that they can fly through to destroy its reactor, and that isn't very likely either.

Worst of all, if by some miracle they can somehow overwhelm tens of thousands of fighters, shuttles, gunboats, etc., and take out thousands of tractor-beam emitters without losing their whole fleet, and punch a hole through an armoured shell which considered virtually impregnable to weapons that make Jango Fett's seismic charges look like toys, and get in and destroy the reactor ... the resulting debris would devastate Earth.

It's a total clusterfuck for the Feds. Their best and most likely option is to try and negotiate with the people on DS2 and use DS2's crippled status as well as (presumed) Imperial ignorance of Fed capabilities in order to bluff their way to a positive and beneficial agreement for both sides (which is what they're most inclined to do by nature anyway).

[Agent Fisher]

Well, more like how the Hornet died in WWII. A bomb flew down the ammo elevation in to the magizines and well, you get the idea. A one in a million shot, but damn it, it turned out to be that one in a million.

No... because that's not how Hornet was sunk. She infact proved practically unsinkable, taking four bombs and no less then sixteen torpedoes before sinking. The last four happened to be 24 inch Long Lances from a Japanese destroyer, because the American destroyers ordered to scuttle her ran out of torpedoes trying. Then even after several hundred rounds of 5-inch shellfire she was still afloat and they had to flee as Japanese surface forces where approaching. The IJN force actually briefly considered attempting to tow her back to base, but decided against trying when they approached closer and saw just how fully ablaze the vessel was.

In any case, bomb elevators on carriers have armored hatches where they pierce the deck, and measure only a few feet across in any case. It could happen, but one in a million is about right, with a bomb which is plunging exactly vertically. Even the Japanese carriers at Midway weren't so unlucky as to have that happen, none of them had a main magazine explode from any case. I actually can't think of any fleet carrier (I do know of CVL's and CVE's) which was destroyed by a bomb magazine detonating. Though of course many of them suffered explosions of bombs loaded on planes on the hanger or flight decks, and several more (and sometimes the same ships) where blown up by their aviation gasoline tanks exploding or filling the ship with vapor that then exploded. But that's why on decently designed carriers the aviation fuel tanks where surrounded with armor and or a jacket of water filled tanks.

Really? I could have sworn thats what the Docent said on the tour of the Hornet that is docked at Alemeda NAS. We had just reached the deck where the ammo elevator from the magazines has to move over twenty feet and then continue up to the hanger deck. Someone asked about that, and he said that the previous Hornet was sunk or damaged(I cant remember exactly) when a bomb flew down the elevator into the magizines. It may not have been the Hornet, but I could have sworn there was a Carrier that was either damaged or destroyed when a bomb flew down the elevator into the magazines.

[Aaron]

According to this the DSII has 600 TIE squadrons. Thats enough to completely rape any force the Feds can throw at it.

[wautd]

According to this the DSII has 600 TIE squadrons. Thats enough to completely rape any force the Feds can throw at it.

how canon is that? Because the numbers (TL batteries, troop strenght, etc...) seem rather low

[Techno_Union]

According to this the DSII has 600 TIE squadrons. Thats enough to completely rape any force the Feds can throw at it.

how canon is that? Because the numbers (TL batteries, troop strenght, etc...) seem rather low

The info for that page seems to be rather old as it still uses the "160km" diameter... so I doubt that the other info is good unless it's stated somewhere else in SW.

[Sea Skimmer]

Really? I could have sworn thats what the Docent said on the tour of the Hornet that is docked at Alemeda NAS.

It wouldn't be the first time a tour guide was wrong.

We had just reached the deck where the ammo elevator from the magazines has to move over twenty feet and then continue up to the hanger deck. Someone asked about that, and he said that the previous Hornet was sunk or damaged(I cant remember exactly) when a bomb flew down the elevator into the magizines.

No bomb reached her magazines, that is an unquestionable fact. Of the four bombs which hit her one did penetrate four decks before exploding, but that is still well short of the magazines. In any case, Hornet did not have any flight or hanger deck armor, so if a bomb did hit the bomb elevator and somehow plunged down it wouldn't be saving its self any effort piercing armor until it was very low in the ship. But even the deepest of the bomb hits didn't pierce what deck armor she did have, which was located quite low near the waterline, joining to the top of the belt armor. The reason for that was that it simply wasn't possible to place the armor high in the ships on the available tonnage, Yorktown class carriers had some heavy treaty restrictions.

It may not have been the Hornet, but I could have sworn there was a Carrier that was either damaged or destroyed when a bomb flew down the elevator into the magazines.

A bomb hitting a magazine is basically an instant kill unless the ship is absurdly lucky and nothing else detonates. But in almost all cases the explosion will tear the ship to peices and will stand a fair chance of blowing it clear in half. A couple CVE's did suffer catastrophic magazine explosions from hits, but CVE's had no armor. CVL 23 Princeton was destroyed by a magazine explosion, the only major American carrier to which that happened. However the magazine was exploded after some time by fires caused by a bomb hit, not directly by the bomb hitting the magazine. The CVE's however had no armor protection at all.

Even looking a foreign fleets I know of no magazine hit (plenty more cases of fatal or crippling AVGAS explosions though) which sank a major carrier vessel. Its a fate reserved for CVE's it would seem. But that's shouldn't really be surprising. Even against ships with little or no armor it takes a pretty heavy bomb striking very fast and most importantly with a very long fuse delay just to get through all the decks of the ship to the magazines at the bottom. It just didn't happen and couldn't easily. The vast majority of bombs which hit carriers where 500 or 1000-pound (or 250 or 500 kilogram) general-purpose weapons with quite short delay fuses. They weren't designed to strike deep and they didn't. Furthermore, dive bombers where the most accurate of bombers and scored most of the hits carriers had to endure. But from a given altitude a dive-bomber doesn't pick up nearly as much speed as a falling bomb. They have dive breaks specifically to prevent excessive speed. That means the impact velocity of the bomb is low (relatively speaking to a bomb dropped from the altitude the dive bomber entered its dive at) and thus the bombs tend to explode high in the ship.


Even in the rare cases when bombs did plunge very deep into a ship, the magazines didn't take up that huge an area, and generally had their own armored box within the ships belt and deck armor. That meant only a direct hit would be effective. Effective at blowing up a magazine anyway, if they didn't hit a magazine chances are it's going to hit a boiler or engine room or AVGAS tanks. Hits on any of those tend to be very bad, no or reduced propulsive power makes you rather vulnerable to follow up attacks, and as I mentioned AVGAS was explosive as fuck and destroyed many ships.

[lPeregrine]

No shields, no guns, and stuck in a predictable orbit? Death Star starts taking high-velocity asteroid impacts until it is battered into submission. The only question is how long it would take the Federation to get some asteroids started on a collision course. If the Death Star stays insanely crippled long enough, it's dead.

Of course this brings up the interesting question of what happens when the wreckage of the Death Star falls out of orbit and slams into the Earth...

[Solauren]

How smart and well versed in history is the person in charge of Starfleet?

The only solution I can see to this besides surrender involves using at least 1 'one trick pony'
And no, it's not something like Genesis

[Lone_Prodigy]

No shields, no guns, and stuck in a predictable orbit? Death Star starts taking high-velocity asteroid impacts until it is battered into submission. The only question is how long it would take the Federation to get some asteroids started on a collision course. If the Death Star stays insanely crippled long enough, it's dead.

Of course this brings up the interesting question of what happens when the wreckage of the Death Star falls out of orbit and slams into the Earth...

It's armor, which is considered impregnable to teraton impacts in every location, would get ripped apart by what asteroids the Feds could get together? No chance in hell. The DS2 is just far too massive and armored– they'd have to get through 450 kilometers of starship-grade material just to get to the reactor chamber.

[Chris OFarrell]

Get Starfleet to take out the TIE's, then have a couple hundred Starships tow the Death Star into Sol.

[lPeregrine]

It's armor, which is considered impregnable to teraton impacts in every location, would get ripped apart by what asteroids the Feds could get together? No chance in hell. The DS2 is just far too massive and armored– they'd have to get through 450 kilometers of starship-grade material just to get to the reactor chamber.

You'll notice they have a month at minimum during which the Death Star is going to sit there perfectly still without firing a single shot. Its shields are gone, its guns are gone, and it's not even finished. All it can do is sit and watch helplessly as it gets torn apart. By the conditions of the initial post, the Death Star is so crippled it might as well be dead already!

They don't even have the surface armor done. Half the shell is exposed framework, which I seriously doubt is going to be armored. With the Death Star's engines offline, it's a trivial physics problem to get all the asteroids to hit the exposed sections.

And you're forgetting that armor isn't everything. It's not just energy that's the problem, it's momentum and what the hull structure can take. The Death Star's armor might be good, but can it survive massive stress from a completely unanticipated angle?

And would the Death Star's crew refuse to surrender after the first few impacts? They know they're helpless, so it wouldn't even take complete destruction to end the battle.

[Firefox]

Its shields are gone, its guns are gone, and it's not even finished. All it can do is sit and watch helplessly as it gets torn apart. By the conditions of the initial post, the Death Star is so crippled it might as well be dead already!

They don't even have the surface armor done. Half the shell is exposed framework, which I seriously doubt is going to be armored. With the Death Star's engines offline, it's a trivial physics problem to get all the asteroids to hit the exposed sections.

Well, meet the Galactic Empire and their shiny new DSII. It will attack earth but the good news is that I temporarely disabled its shields, engines, superlaser and surface guns. However it's still fully garissoned

Emphasis mine. The impression given (wautd can say otherwise) is that the DSII is fully complete, i.e., no exposed superstructure. So yes, the armor belt will be a problem.

[Chris OFarrell]

Just a question as I don't have ITW OT. What are the specifications of the Armour belt?

[Chris OFarrell]

*As in thickness, depth, material and so on*

[lPeregrine]

Emphasis mine. The impression given (wautd can say otherwise) is that the DSII is fully complete, i.e., no exposed superstructure. So yes, the armor belt will be a problem.

Not too much of one. The kinetic energy of asteroid impacts makes even heavy turbolaser shots look insignificant in comparison. And the Death Star is going to be sitting there for a month, asteroid after asteroid battering its armor in pretty much the same place. Even without the exposed sections, those impacts are going to penetrate.

[Firefox]

That's assuming the Federation employs such tactics, which we've never seen in the series.

And yeah, I'm interested in the armor belt specs, as well.

[lPeregrine]

That's assuming the Federation employs such tactics, which we've never seen in the series.

And yeah, I'm interested in the armor belt specs, as well.

Ok, so the Federation will probably throw the entire fleet at the TIE force in a suicidal attack, then spend the month trying to negotiate a peace treaty and testing random-particle-of-the-week-radiation weapons hoping for a miracle solution. At which point Q decides the time after the month is one second, just to rid himself of such incompetence.

I guess it's just more fun to assume that somehow a competent leader gets control for things like this. Perhaps there was a missing line in the initial post where all of Starfleet's highest officers get shot?

[Firefox]

Why should he have to add such a qualifier? Again, Starfleet has never displayed the competence to come up with such tactics, and I don't think they would start now.

[Darth Wong]

OK, what fucktard envisioned an asteroid-based attack with no regard whatsoever for the fact that DS2 can easily turn aside such asteroids with its tractor beams and send them hurtling toward Earth?

[lPeregrine]

OK, what fucktard envisioned an asteroid-based attack with no regard whatsoever for the fact that DS2 can easily turn aside such asteroids with its tractor beams and send them hurtling toward Earth?

*raises hand*

Does the Death Star get its tractor beams? I assumed that the initial post was implying that the Death Star has been crippled and can do absolutely nothing besides sit there and take whatever attack the Federation decides to make. While tractor beams aren't specifically mentioned, it seems like the intent was to completely cripple it.

Obviously if the Death Star gets its tractor beams, the plan doesn't work. Just like if it had even a few surface guns working, things get a lot more difficult. The suggestion of asteroid bombardment was based on the near-absurd helplessness of the Death Star, that it would be forced by act of Q to sit and take them.

[Firefox]

I'd assumed that wautd had taken the tractor beam projectors into account when saying the DS was effectively neutered. Otherwise, the Imperials could keep Starfleet at bay until their propulsion and weapons systems were restored.