Aw what tha hell! Time for a classic SpaceBattles Debate!

[Hotfoot]

To steal from Mark Twain, the difference here, it seems, is between lightning and the lightning bug.

[SAMAS]

Wow, SAMAS, you demonstrate complete inability to understand base scientific laws! Good job!

If Pika's bolts were weak enough to fall under the same mechanism as an electric eel, no problem. Of course, you seem unaware of Conservation Of Energy, which requires that he would have to eat many, many times his body weight to discharge the energy you claim for him.

'It's electricity! LOOK!!11 Not magic, electric!!!111'

Lightning Bolt, 3rd level spell.

Chain Lightning, 5th level spell.

Both magic.

And?...

Soviet Tesla Coil

Storm's Lightning Bolt

Both not Magic.

None of our examples have any bearing on this argument.

So your best argument is that despite the fact that electricity-generating and -storing organs can and do occur naturally(and are specifically stated to be the source of Pikachu's electricity), it must be magic because it's too powerful?

Pikachu's already been shown to be able to store large amounts of electricity, and can be trained/conditioned to hold and discharge more. In Showdown in Pewter City, Ash hooks Pikachu up to a small hydroelectric generator, and spends a good portion of a night charging Pikachu with it to increase his electrical capacity, power, and control.

First Law of Anime: The normal Laws of Physics do not apply.

But seriously, it does have a point. No series(anime or not) strictly follows the laws of physics, and often Conservation of Energy is the first to go. Unless you want to argue that Star Trek Transporters, Mobile Suits, Star Wars Hyperspace, The Culture, and Godzilla are all Supernatural.

[SAMAS]

You know, this is the fastest I've seen one of these Debates devolve into it's final stage:

When other board members, apparently horrified by the prospect of Pokemon actually beating something, start coming up with the most powerful things they can and throw them at me. Why they do this, I don't know. Maybe it reassures their shaken nerves or something.

Naturally, this eventually becomes a losing battle for me, but I still like to hold out as long as I can.

Nitram, you immediately went off topic before the end of the First Page.



http://samas.freehosting.net/ConcessionTau.jpg

[SAMAS]

Okay, enough off-topic sappyness, back to the fight!

[Alyrium Denryle]

Enough with rant on pokemons attacks being magic.

Even if they are, it doesnt matter. a mage can put up defenses against non-magical attacks. Energy buffer is a wonderful spell, impoved energy buffer is a very nice spell.

And on the unoun changing someone into crystal: freedom of movement, grants immunity to petrification spells and hold spells of any kind.

An elf is immunt to every last sleep effect, not the magic itself, but thier will is so strong they cannot be lulled to sleep.

Against physical attacks, Stoneskin or improved stone skin.

And if all else fails, a high level mage(around level 30) can cast up to 15 spells per round with the right feats, and (around level 40) can cast them with no metamagic costs(thanks to taking automatic quicken 3 times), also at that level they are capable of using EPIC spells. Think of a mini-nuke exploding fom a mages fingers 15 times in 6 seconds, each with a 5 mile blast radius with caster immune to the effect. I dont think any pokemon can stand up to that kind of assault.

If attacked by something for which they have no defense a mage can simply use a quickemd teleport or dimension door spell. Of course altering the spell so that the base is 1 level higher and negating the whole"no more actions after you use the spell" thing.

The wonderful thing aboutD&D is that it is changable, you are not limited to the spells in the books, because a mage can create thier own. I dont even have to send the DM after pokeworld. al I haveto do is send a wiz40/AoM5/Altered battle mage10/atheist5/deulist1/monk1

Ability stats

str-16
dex-200
con-60
int-350
wis-200
char-90

skills-all

feats
spell penetration
improved metamagicx6
auto-quickenx3
mulispellx5
experitise
war wizard tactics
improved war wizard tactics
weapon finesse
craft wonderous item
combat casting
improved combat casting
improved spell capacity
epic spellcasting
mind over matter

This is an NPC in a campagin I am running right no. Be afraid

[Ghost Rider]

Pokemon beating what...seriously I've yet to see a defining argument that a truly powerful 40th level mage would do nothing but cast Time Stop and obliterate these little chibbers.

[HemlockGrey]

SAMAS, it does not matter if the Pokemon are affected by dead magic zones. One nice Meteor Storm will annhilate them in droves.

[SirNitram]

Wow, SAMAS, you demonstrate complete inability to understand base scientific laws! Good job!

If Pika's bolts were weak enough to fall under the same mechanism as an electric eel, no problem. Of course, you seem unaware of Conservation Of Energy, which requires that he would have to eat many, many times his body weight to discharge the energy you claim for him.

'It's electricity! LOOK!!11 Not magic, electric!!!111'

Lightning Bolt, 3rd level spell.

Chain Lightning, 5th level spell.

Both magic.

And?...

Soviet Tesla Coil

Storm's Lightning Bolt

Both not Magic.

None of our examples have any bearing on this argument.

So your best argument is that despite the fact that electricity-generating and -storing organs can and do occur naturally(and are specifically stated to be the source of Pikachu's electricity), it must be magic because it's too powerful?

Pikachu's already been shown to be able to store large amounts of electricity, and can be trained/conditioned to hold and discharge more. In Showdown in Pewter City, Ash hooks Pikachu up to a small hydroelectric generator, and spends a good portion of a night charging Pikachu with it to increase his electrical capacity, power, and control.

First Law of Anime: The normal Laws of Physics do not apply.

But seriously, it does have a point. No series(anime or not) strictly follows the laws of physics, and often Conservation of Energy is the first to go. Unless you want to argue that Star Trek Transporters, Mobile Suits, Star Wars Hyperspace, The Culture, and Godzilla are all Supernatural.

No, they are technological. Because.. *drumroll* technology does those things! We even call those things 'superscience', for they go beyond normal science.

But is Pikachu technological? Nope! He's a rat. He defies CoE. Any sane or rational person sees this as supernatural.

'Blahblahblah concession accepted yur a p00py hed!'

Whatever. You're claiming just because it's anime you automagically win? Sorry.

Allow me to reiterate how Netheril 0wnz the Pokemon.

1) Tolodine's Killing Wind. Spreads out faster than any creature can run. Slays everything caught in it instantly.

2) Prismatic Sphere. Even with the right magic to bring it down, it takes nine rounds to disassemble. The mage within will have devastated any army by then.

3) Karsus' Avatar. The Unoun have no chance, not against Karsus The Mad. There is no defense against Avatar.

[HemlockGrey]

Bah. We don't need the Netherese. The Black Tower or the Seanchan Empire could slaughter the Pokemon with ease.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I am not even using a netherse wizard, just a normal one

[SirNitram]

I Am The Black Mage!

Overkill is my business!

[Alyrium Denryle]

HADOKEN[.size]

[Alyrium Denryle]

lets try this again


HADOKEN!

[SirNitram]

lets try this again


HADOKEN!

Yes, my dark apprentice... You are learning well.

[SAMAS]

Enough with rant on pokemons attacks being magic.

[snip]

So you're saying it takes an experienced mage to take on a teenager's(admittedly rediculously powerful if trained well) pets? ^_^

Here's a question: How long does it take for your average mage to reach the 40th level?

[SirNitram]

Enough with rant on pokemons attacks being magic.

[snip]

So you're saying it takes an experienced mage to take on a teenager's(admittedly rediculously powerful if trained well) pets? ^_^

Here's a question: How long does it take for your average mage to reach the 40th level?

40th level? Why would that be needed, apart from to deal with these little Unoun?

[Ghost Rider]

does it matter?

This is a way of avoiding defeat because I could say my Cat of Doom destroys your Pokemon and it's only takes 2 seconds to go from birth to full grown.

There obviously far better time frame even though I backed it up with no evidence.

Who cares how long it take for a Wizard to become 40th level?

He's 40th level...he can lay waste to worlds... he can stop time and summon boulders of pure magical destruction at his command. Who cares how long it takes him to get to that level.

[SAMAS]

No, they are technological. Because.. *drumroll* technology does those things! We even call those things 'superscience', for they go beyond normal science.

But is Pikachu technological? Nope! He's a rat.

And Godzilla's a Dinosaur. That means they are *drumroll* Biological!

He defies CoE. Any sane or rational person sees this as supernatural.

This is StarDestroyer.net. Rational, maybe. But Sane is few and far between. Seriously, I'll get to this below.

Whatever. You're claiming just because it's anime you automagically win? Sorry.

No, what I'm saying that you are using the dumbest reasoning on the continental United States(There's even dumber reasoning in Alaska and Hawaii ).

True, Pikachu can hold a tremendous amount of electricity, and shoot it out, but his method of generation and storage is completely natural.

This is what I've been trying to tell you. You're trying to shoehorn one universe, with different rules, into the rules of another. By D&D terms, a foot tall mouse that tosses lightning would be considered Supernatural. In Pokemon, it's a not-uncommon animal in Veridan/Pallet Town area, and occasionally shows up elsewhere. It has been studied and tested for a long time, and it's abilities have all been determined to be mostly biological, with a few minor psychic abilities(Agility, Light Screen, and maybe Double Team). Magic is an extreme rarity in Pokemon(Oh it exists. Once Ash got turned into a Pikachu), and only perhaps the most powerful of Pokemon have any magic abilites.

And no, I haven't een doing it myself. If I was, it'd be a thousand times worse. If you actually played the game, you'd see how much I've been holding back.

Allow me to reiterate how Netheril 0wnz the Pokemon.

1) Tolodine's Killing Wind. Spreads out faster than any creature can run. Slays everything caught in it instantly.

The Speed and reaction times of many Pokemon exceed those of humans. Case in point: Pikachu can intercept a lightning bolt in mid-air(Mild 'n' Wooly), and many of them have ways of amping that up. Don't try casting a spell on a Scyther. It'll cut you in half before you finish speaking.

Second: Many Pokemon have ways of generating hurricane-force winds on their own. How does that spell stand up against other winds?

2) Prismatic Sphere. Even with the right magic to bring it down, it takes nine rounds to disassemble. The mage within will have devastated any army by then.

First question: How long is a D&D round?

3) Karsus' Avatar. The Unoun have no chance, not against Karsus The Mad. There is no defense against Avatar.

Two Smeargles. One to take the hit, the other to Sketch it and use it on him.

[SAMAS]

Enough with rant on pokemons attacks being magic.

[snip]

So you're saying it takes an experienced mage to take on a teenager's(admittedly rediculously powerful if trained well) pets? ^_^

Here's a question: How long does it take for your average mage to reach the 40th level?

40th level? Why would that be needed, apart from to deal with these little Unoun?

Why are you asking me? "Y'all are the ones cheesing out here.

Okay, let's make it easy for you. Let's stick with a Six-Pokmeon team here. In particular, the team used by Red/Ash at the end of Pokemon Gold/Silver/Crystal:

Pikachu, Level 81

Espeon, Level 74

Snorlax, Level 75

Venasaur, Level 77

Charizard, Level 77

Blastoise, Level 77

Now, you're saying that you need all that to take on this one simple team?

[SirNitram]

1) Rational. There is nothing rational about your debating, SAMAS. Everyone here has seen that.

2) Killing Wind. The Killing Wind is not true wind, but a blast of lethal negative energy that rips the souls out. And there are many creatures in AD&D much faster than Pokemon, and they still can't escape.

3) About a minute.

4) Pity it's cast on the Unoun, cannot be blocked.

[SirNitram]

So you're saying it takes an experienced mage to take on a teenager's(admittedly rediculously powerful if trained well) pets? ^_^

Here's a question: How long does it take for your average mage to reach the 40th level?

40th level? Why would that be needed, apart from to deal with these little Unoun?

Why are you asking me? "Y'all are the ones cheesing out here.

Okay, let's make it easy for you. Let's stick with a Six-Pokmeon team here. In particular, the team used by Red/Ash at the end of Pokemon Gold/Silver/Crystal:

Pikachu, Level 81

Espeon, Level 74

Snorlax, Level 75

Venasaur, Level 77

Charizard, Level 77

Blastoise, Level 77

Now, you're saying that you need all that to take on this one simple team?

Candlemas, 27th level, as of Sword Play

Tolodine's Killing Wind takes this in the opening round.

[SAMAS]

2) Killing Wind. The Killing Wind is not true wind, but a blast of lethal negative energy that rips the souls out. And there are many creatures in AD&D much faster than Pokemon, and they still can't escape.

Oh, it's just an energy plast. And here I was about to give you some credit.

Safeguard, Protect, Mirror Coat. Game Over.

3) About a minute.

Hm... so at best, Alyrium's ueber-munchy NPC is casting a spell every four seconds.

A Heracross has a reaction and attack time measured in fractions of a second(Wired for Battle), and he's not even one of the fast ones.

4) Pity it's cast on the Unoun, cannot be blocked.

Which brings you back to an earlier part of the Thread. Unoun travel in swarms.

You hit: One Unoun.

You then get stomped by: thirty-nine Unoun.

That, of course, is assuming you don't get a spear of crystal thrust through your back wile drawing in the energy.

[SirNitram]

'Oh, it's just an energy blast'. Mmm hmmm. Sadly, negative energy isn't so easily defended against. Sorry, you lose. Since you demand we use Pokemon rules for determining if AD&D defenses work, I invoke the same thing: Killing Wind wipes the field because no Pokemon has the ability to resist raw death. Have a nice day.

'Hm... so at best, Alyrium's ueber-munchy NPC is casting a spell every four seconds. '

And it still takes the Pokemon 9 minutes to breach a Prismatic Sphere. Except they don't have magic or supernatural abilities, so they can't penetrate at all.

'Multiple Unoun!' You say this like Avatar doesn't have a clause for swarm deities. It takes the essense of what makes them all-powerful, not their lifeforce. Silly, silly fanboy.

'That, of course, is assuming you don't get a spear of crystal thrust through your back wile drawing in the energy.' Prismatic Sphere, since you yourself said they lack the powers needed to penetrate.

[Vejut]

*once more into the breach...*
About your pokemon's power: what were those boulders made of, glass? Sugar crystals? Mankey (or evolved form or whatever...) breaks boulders but FAILS to kill Ash by slamming him into a rock wall and/or punching the hell out of him? Pikachu blows up 'copters, but can't shock anyone to death, either by intention or accident? Then, lets go to charizard/charmeleon/whatever. You see nothing magical in the fact that the quantity of flames he can produce (multiple times), is many times his own body size (for instance, can't name ep, but the one with the large number of walking palm trees)? Or that there is no way in hell as much water as we see can fit in a blastoise shell? And aren't you leaving off several things from your list of magical attacks/things like say, the ghost poke and all their stuff, plants/grass poke having huge quantitities of [steel edged] leaves to hand (razor leaf), (and the fact that said leaves actually can damage pokemon despite not going all that fast). I also don't recall psychic abilities being covered in my physics class....

I supppose you'd consider D&D dragon breath "normal Biological process" too?

[Andrew J.]

Safeguard, Protect, Mirror Coat. Game Over.

Safeguard and Protect last a limited amount of time. Using Mirror Coat would be stupid, because the Pokemon takes damage too, and if the attack kills it, it will not reflect the damage back.