A very crippled DSII reaches earth's orbit

[Darth Wong]

Does the Death Star get its tractor beams? I assumed that the initial post was implying that the Death Star has been crippled and can do absolutely nothing besides sit there and take whatever attack the Federation decides to make.

Since it can obviously operate its docking bay atmosphere containment forcefields in order to launch and retrieve fighters, there is no reason whatsoever to assume that every system on the station is crippled. The OP listed specific systems which were crippled, and the tractor beams were not among them. Hell, tractor beams would normally be used in order to retrieve damaged and crippled fighters.

[Imperial Overlord]

It's TIE squadrons would easily be able to obliterate any Fed asteroid with Star Wars grade heavy weapons even if they don't use the tractor beams. And they ould probably scramble and destroy and Feds trying to round up asteroids if the DSII commander felt even slightly threatened by it.

[Firefox]

Unless wautd amends the OP again, I'm obliged to agree. I honestly hadn't thought of the tractor beam projectors as weapons, and simply focused on how the station's passive defenses would keep SF at bay.

[lPeregrine]

Does the Death Star get its tractor beams? I assumed that the initial post was implying that the Death Star has been crippled and can do absolutely nothing besides sit there and take whatever attack the Federation decides to make.

Since it can obviously operate its docking bay atmosphere containment forcefields in order to launch and retrieve fighters, there is no reason whatsoever to assume that every system on the station is crippled. The OP listed specific systems which were crippled, and the tractor beams were not among them. Hell, tractor beams would normally be used in order to retrieve damaged and crippled fighters.

The intent of the initial post seems to be "Federation vs. Death Star armor + size", more a question of demolishing a passive but extremely tough target than fighting a war. But I guess we'll have to wait to hear from the author whether it's a mistake or if the Death Star is meant to have some active defenses.

And as I said, if the Death Star keeps any system even remotely capable of disrupting an attack, it's a hopeless cause. The Federation's only prayer is that my guess is right, and an act of Q has forced the Death Star to sit there and take a month of the Federation's best attacks.

[Darth Wong]

There are two factors which were completely ignored in the first slew of responses in this thread:

1. The tractor-beam emitters, as I noted previously.
2. The possibility of the DS2 commander going on the offensive.

I have already examined #1. Let us now look at #2. Why is everyone mindlessly assuming that the Imps are going to just sit there and passively try to defend against everything the Feds throw at them? Their fighters and gunships alone have more than enough missile warheads to absolutely devastate Earth in bombing runs, and despite Trek wanking to the contrary, Starfleet cannot possibly stop them all.

As I said earlier, the most likely outcome is negotiation; if the Feds are stupid enough to go on an all-out offensive against DS2, the Imps might just passively try to defend themselves, or they might decide to teach these fuckers a lesson by wiping out a few billion people on their unshielded homeworld which just so happens to be conveniently in easy range.

Even if the initial post were amended to disable the tractor beam emitters and it became possible to wear down DS2's defenses, its commander would have more than enough time to recognize what's happening and inform the Feds to either break off or watch a billion people die.

[lPeregrine]

It's TIE squadrons would easily be able to obliterate any Fed asteroid with Star Wars grade heavy weapons even if they don't use the tractor beams. And they ould probably scramble and destroy and Feds trying to round up asteroids if the DSII commander felt even slightly threatened by it.

Could they? What kind of endurance do the TIEs have? Can they maintain a continuous patrol without letting anything through? Can their guns destroy km-sized asteroids in time to stop the impact?


And if TIEs are excellent anti-asteroid defense, where were they in the ESB asteroid field scenes? We see at least one major impact slip through the point defense guns, so wouldn't it have made sense to have a few TIEs adding to their defenses?

[lPeregrine]

There are two factors which were completely ignored in the first slew of responses in this thread:

1. The tractor-beam emitters, as I noted previously.
2. The possibility of the DS2 commander going on the offensive.

I have already examined #1. Let us now look at #2. Why is everyone mindlessly assuming that the Imps are going to just sit there and passively try to defend against everything the Feds throw at them? Their fighters and gunships alone have more than enough missile warheads to absolutely devastate Earth in bombing runs, and despite Trek wanking to the contrary, Starfleet cannot possibly stop them all.

As I said earlier, the most likely outcome is negotiation; if the Feds are stupid enough to go on an all-out offensive against DS2, the Imps might just passively try to defend themselves, or they might decide to teach these fuckers a lesson by wiping out a few billion people on their unshielded homeworld which just so happens to be conveniently in easy range.

Even if the initial post were amended to disable the tractor beam emitters and it became possible to wear down DS2's defenses, its commander would have more than enough time to recognize what's happening and inform the Feds to either break off or watch a billion people die.

True enough, but would the Death Star surrender without the Federation proving at least some ability to damage it? What motive could they have to surrender, safe inside an invulerable battlestation? Could the Federation bluff that well, and would they even trust the Imperials to live by that peace agreement once the Death Star's weapons come back? The only way I can imagine a peaceful agreement coming out of this is Imperial rule of the Federation.

Yes, the Empire can take Earth with them, but the Death Star and its fighters are trapped there. The price of its destruction might be Earth and billions of people, but wouldn't that be better than the many planets an operational Death Star could destroy? Does the Federation have any leaders willing to make the necessary sacrifice to save billions more in the future?

[Darth Wong]

It's TIE squadrons would easily be able to obliterate any Fed asteroid with Star Wars grade heavy weapons even if they don't use the tractor beams. And they ould probably scramble and destroy and Feds trying to round up asteroids if the DSII commander felt even slightly threatened by it.

Could they? What kind of endurance do the TIEs have? Can they maintain a continuous patrol without letting anything through? Can their guns destroy km-sized asteroids in time to stop the impact?

Are you being deliberately retarded? It's empty fucking space, and the Feds have to tow the asteroids from millions of kilometres away, for fuck's sake. You act as though the asteroids are just popping up with a few seconds warning or something.

And if TIEs are excellent anti-asteroid defense, where were they in the ESB asteroid field scenes? We see at least one major impact slip through the point defense guns, so wouldn't it have made sense to have a few TIEs adding to their defenses?

The TIEs obviously couldn't use heavy ordnance such as seismic charges to clear and pulverize asteroids because they were trying to capture the Falcon intact.

[Darth Wong]

True enough, but would the Death Star surrender without the Federation proving at least some ability to damage it? What motive could they have to surrender, safe inside an invulerable battlestation? Could the Federation bluff that well, and would they even trust the Imperials to live by that peace agreement once the Death Star's weapons come back? The only way I can imagine a peaceful agreement coming out of this is Imperial rule of the Federation.

Jesus, what the fuck are you trying to read into my statements? Who the fuck said anything about the DS2 surrendering? I'm talking about the Feds pointing out that they are not at war with the Empire and offering some kind of non-aggression treaty. It's a longshot but it's better than doing something idiotic like unilaterally starting a war with an enemy which can unload thousands of WMDs on your fucking homeworld.

Yes, the Empire can take Earth with them, but the Death Star and its fighters are trapped there. The price of its destruction might be Earth and billions of people, but wouldn't that be better than the many planets an operational Death Star could destroy? Does the Federation have any leaders willing to make the necessary sacrifice to save billions more in the future?

The ability to depopulate planets already exists in the Star Trek universe, and the Death Star's extreme overkill or its ability to overwhelm enormously strong planetary shields are a mere academic distinction. No one in his right mind would willingly sacrifice Earth for such a reason, not to mention inviting war with whoever built this fucking thing; one does not deliberately kick a sleeping giant in the nuts.

[McC]

How about the immense gravitational disturbance the DS2 will create while sitting in Earth's orbit? That's gonna fuck things up pretty nicely all by itself.

[lPeregrine]

Are you being deliberately retarded? It's empty fucking space, and the Feds have to tow the asteroids from millions of kilometres away, for fuck's sake. You act as though the asteroids are just popping up with a few seconds warning or something.

I'm not talking about warning time. If the Federation puts all their effort into it, they'd want to have a constant rain of them, as fast as they can tow them into position. Sending one, then maybe one a few weeks later would be kind of pointless. But if they can get the pace high enough, the Death Star is going to have to keep its TIE defenses up for long periods of time. Add in Federation escort ships, and those fighters could very well end up suffering from lack of endurance and pilot fatigue.

The TIEs obviously couldn't use heavy ordnance such as seismic charges to clear and pulverize asteroids because they were trying to capture the Falcon intact.

The asteroid impact shown wasn't anywhere near the Falcon. If TIEs are well equipped to deal with heavy asteroid bombardment, where were they in that scene? We don't see even a single fighter flying point defense.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jesus, what the fuck are you trying to read into my statements? Who the fuck said anything about the DS2 surrendering?

That's my point, the Death Star has absolutely no reason to surrender, or even accept a peace treaty. The only think keeping them from becoming the Federation's new rulers is the Death Star commander's sense of kindness. Or a one in a million chance that the Federation can demonstrate a credible threat, and convince them to accept less demanding terms.

I'm talking about the Feds pointing out that they are not at war with the Empire and offering some kind of non-aggression treaty. It's a longshot but it's better than doing something idiotic like unilaterally starting a war with an enemy which can unload thousands of WMDs on your fucking homeworld.

Long shot is the understatement of the year... if the Federation doesn't force a more favorable arrangement by the time the divine intervention expires, there's nothing to stop the Death Star's commander from taking over the entire Federation. Once the Death Star gets its weapons back, any non-agression treaty signed becomes worthless.

With the Federation knowing this, why would they trust the Imperials? I know they're hopeless idealists, but surely someone would stop to think that maybe an Empire that builds planet-destroying battlestations just might not be the friendliest and most trustworthy allies ever.

The ability to depopulate planets already exists in the Star Trek universe, and the Death Star's extreme overkill or its ability to overwhelm enormously strong planetary shields are a mere academic distinction. No one in his right mind would willingly sacrifice Earth for such a reason, not to mention inviting war with whoever built this fucking thing; one does not deliberately kick a sleeping giant in the nuts.

Except that a Death Star without the divine intervention crippling could take over the entire galaxy almost effortlessly. And the Death Star is alone, the initial post says nothing about a connection to the rest of the Empire. They don't have to worry about war with whoever built it, just the Death Star itself.

If the Federation has been told even the most basic information about the Empire, they're going to know that what they're facing is the exact opposite of their government and society. They wouldn't be sacrificing Earth to stop just any random planet killer, they'd be doing it to save their entire civilization.

[The Silence and I]

Ok, I missread what I thought was a change to the OT. TIEs are going to be a problem...

Assuming negotiation fails destroying the station is the only option, tring to assault and take it is borderline impossible for the Feds, not just unlikely.

The armor will withstand Federation weaponry, and any asteroids sent towards the station are either too small to worry about or will be diverted with the tractor beams, possibly into Earth or starbases.

The tractor beams I had quite forgotten about and they make this much harder; harder even than the TIEs IMO, as the TIEs can be easily destroyed--it's the sheer number of them that cause problems. We know Federation weapons range is superior to the DS's tractor range so that is the difference that makes destroying the station possible (torpedoes have a range of millions of KM against predicable targets IIRC, and phasers seem to have a range close to a light second; targetting the DS is not going to be terrible hard...).

There are three problems then: Dealing with the swarms of TIE fighters-- some of which carry heavy weapons, destroying the DS despite its armor, and protecting Earth from the resulting explosion.

The TIEs can be dealt with, but probably only if the Feds respect their abiities and employ sound tactics (ok, they're screwed ) for example massing a fleet of tightly grouped torpedo heavy and phaser heavy starship classes. For example a fleet consisting of mainly Akiras and torpdedo pod Nebulas with a few sensor pod Nebulas and assorted gun boat ships like the Sabre. This group will challenge the DS from beyond tractor range, and they will employ specialized weaponry that is capable of damaging the station, otherwise the TIEs might simply stay docked.

This weapon would be a modified torpedo which sacrafices sensors, warp sustainers and reactant mixing chambers allowing a much larger antimatter load out of perhaps several Kg; without the mixing chambers or sensors such a weapon would be nearly useless as a ship killer but its surprise is that it simply dumps the antimatter infront of it a bit before impact. The unshielded hull will sustain damage; although the rate of damage will be slow per torpedo it is far better than nothing and massed volleys of hundreds of these weapons on focused coordinates just might get the commander's attention. When the TIEs come out to greet the fleet they have to deal with heavy proximity torpedo fire from the Akiras and Nebulas (the range will be large enough that the flight time for the TIEs will be several volley's worth at least otherwise this tactic has no point) and when the hopefully fewer survivors close to phaser range they will find themselves in a world of hurt from the interlinked starships providing cover fire for each other effectively increasing the defensive abilites of every starship there. The sensor pods provide accurate targetting information to speed up target lock times. Once the TIEs get too close for accurate return phaser fire the remaining fleet members retreat at Warp to a safe distance and see if the TIEs follow in which case they have to fly through torpedo fire again.

If the TIEs decide not to do that again the fleet begins bombarding the DS again, with the goal being to destroy all tractor emitters on one side of the station allowing a safe approach for several dozen starships to enter their shorter tractor range and begin relocating the station away from Earth, possibly to attempt a collision course with the Sun, but with the low accelerations we can expect from the starship's attempt to move the massive station this might run the risk of the Station regaining mobility before collision.

I would suggest sending the station to Sol at best possibly speed and using the modified torpedoes to cause surface trauma to the sublight engines which are arrayed along the equator. Without shields the antimatter will destroy certain important components like vector plates, actual physical parts of the nozzels, external support systems etc. There is much to be said for spraying delicate systems with anitmatter

Cause enough damage that the DS cannot recover its mobility in time and watch it burn in the Sun.

Possible hitches:
TIEs that won't play ball; if the TIEs refuse to engage the fleet despite the damage dealt to the surface then towing the DS away will be difficult or impossible with an intact TIE swarm harrassing the ships. This is not likely to happen IMO because as soon as the DS starts taking damage without possiblity of returning it the commander (who will have an idea of the tech level he is dealing with by then), being an aggressive Imperial type is likely to send his TIEs after the fleet. There are other actions the Imperials can take to make this plan fail, but I think most of them rely on 20/20 hindsight to see as obvious foils, I think the Imperials are likely to send the TIEs based on what they know.

Tractor beams that are simply unidentifiable with Federation sensors; if the Feds cannot find the tractor beams on the surface then they can't destroy them without blistering the about half the surface of the station... and if they cannot destroy all the emitters then they cannot safely close to tractor range. I am confident (perhaps too optimistic) that the sensors can identify the emitters--although the dense materials used will block sensors it is silly to suggest the tractor emitters are located under the armor. As long as recognizable emplacements exist outside the armor the Feds can see them. A problem would be identifying these emplacements for what they are without a painful lession first; most likely they will have to learn the hard way

Well that ended up much longer than I expected it would. I make no promises everything I said is proof read and logical, it is late and I have a lab to write up. No time to refine the above.

[lPeregrine]

And after reading the initial post again, the Federation has already lost Earth.

Well, meet the Galactic Empire and their shiny new DSII. It WILL attack earth but the good news is that I temporarely disabled its shields, engines, superlaser and surface guns.

Those billions of casualties on Earth are already dead. Peace treaty or not, the moment the Death Star gets its superlaser back, the Earth is gone. So it isn't even a question of "do you sacrifice Earth or not". It's "do billions of people die, or do billions of people die and the Federation fall to Imperial rule?"

The only choice the Federation has is to make those billions of deaths count for something, and do everything it can to protect the rest of its citizens.

[wautd]

I honestly hadn't thought of the tractor beam projectors as weapons.

same here

[wautd]

Does the Death Star get its tractor beams? I assumed that the initial post was implying that the Death Star has been crippled and can do absolutely nothing besides sit there and take whatever attack the Federation decides to make.

Since it can obviously operate its docking bay atmosphere containment forcefields in order to launch and retrieve fighters, there is no reason whatsoever to assume that every system on the station is crippled. The OP listed specific systems which were crippled, and the tractor beams were not among them. Hell, tractor beams would normally be used in order to retrieve damaged and crippled fighters.

The intent of the initial post seems to be "Federation vs. Death Star armor + size", more a question of demolishing a passive but extremely tough target than fighting a war. .

yeah, that was the original idea peregrine

[Aaron]

I'm not talking about warning time. If the Federation puts all their effort into it, they'd want to have a constant rain of them, as fast as they can tow them into position. Sending one, then maybe one a few weeks later would be kind of pointless. But if they can get the pace high enough, the Death Star is going to have to keep its TIE defenses up for long periods of time. Add in Federation escort ships, and those fighters could very well end up suffering from lack of endurance and pilot fatigue.

Bullshit. If we take the 600 squadron figure that I posted (and thats a severe low end figure), with 12 fighters a squadron, thats 7200 fighters. Pilot fatigue isn't going to be a problem.

7200 fighters is more than enough to destroy any force sent to deal with the DS, as well as devestate Earth. Hell the tractors can keep the capital ships pinned down while the fighters run amok through their ranks. Not to mention the extensive use of ECM by Imperial fighters and their much higher speed than the typical Federation opponent. SF will get their asses handed to them.

The fighters aren't even needed to destroy incoming asteroids, the tractors can do that and send them into Spacedock or crashing into Earth.

[Tribun]

Ok, let's see what problems the Feds have with the DSII:

TIEs:
-Obviously, the DSII will have it's full fighter stock ready to defend itself or even pulverise everything on Earth they can encounter. Remember that this is a DSII, meaning that it will have the creme dè la creme of the fighters of the Empire.
-That will include TIE Avenger and Assault Gunboats. Both of these little bastards are shielded and even SW fighters need time to get through their shielding.
-Also they can carry warheads such as normal missiles and torpedos, and as big as heavy rockets and heavy space bombs which could even destroy a unshielded SW capship.
-And finally, the sheer mass of fighters, judging by ROTJ it could be tens of thousands, will be devastating.

Conclusions:
*They can destroy every Fed ship near them.
*Or they decide to de-populate Earth by using their heavy warheads.

Tractor beams:
-If we take the DSI as indicator, which snatched the Falcon from quite a distance, the range of tractor beams is really impressive. And they can have several useful functions:

*Fed ships can be torn apart with two beams, or hold for the fighters to destroy them then.
*Should the Feds hurl asteroids at the DS, they can re-direct them. Probably directly into earth.
*Alternatively they can use the beams to cause devatation on Earth itself (Why have't we thought about that earlier?). Using it the way the Borg did to rip out cities, but the Imps then let them crash back on the ground.

Gravity:
-The sheer mass of the DSII will already affect Earth in a bad way, Maybe it will even cause catastrophic tidal waves.

Waste:
-Maybe the Imperials think of it as fun to throw some of their toxic or radioactive waste (I bet there will be something like that) onto Earth instead of recycling it.

I hope these points will help in some way in the dabate, and that I have scored some good points.

[wautd]

Ok, let's see what problems the Feds have with the DSII:

TIEs:
-Obviously, the DSII will have it's full fighter stock ready to defend itself or even pulverise everything on Earth they can encounter. Remember that this is a DSII, meaning that it will have the creme dè la creme of the fighters of the Empire.
-That will include TIE Avenger and Assault Gunboats. Both of these little bastards are shielded and even SW fighters need time to get through their shielding.
-Also they can carry warheads such as normal missiles and torpedos, and as big as heavy rockets and heavy space bombs which could even destroy a unshielded SW capship.
-And finally, the sheer mass of fighters, judging by ROTJ it could be tens of thousands, will be devastating.

as I said in the OP and a few times after: only TIE's may leave the DS (act of Q). And I don't believe the TIE's carry missiles

[wautd]

Gravity:
-The sheer mass of the DSII will already affect Earth in a bad way, Maybe it will even cause catastrophic tidal waves.

Whats the mass of the DSII compared with our moon than? Because I think you greatly overrate the gravitational effect

[Tribun]

Ok, let's see what problems the Feds have with the DSII:

TIEs:
-Obviously, the DSII will have it's full fighter stock ready to defend itself or even pulverise everything on Earth they can encounter. Remember that this is a DSII, meaning that it will have the creme dè la creme of the fighters of the Empire.
-That will include TIE Avenger and Assault Gunboats. Both of these little bastards are shielded and even SW fighters need time to get through their shielding.
-Also they can carry warheads such as normal missiles and torpedos, and as big as heavy rockets and heavy space bombs which could even destroy a unshielded SW capship.
-And finally, the sheer mass of fighters, judging by ROTJ it could be tens of thousands, will be devastating.

as I said in the OP and a few times after: only TIE's may leave the DS (act of Q). And I don't believe the TIE's carry missiles

Let's see:
TIEs that carry missiles:
-TIE Bomber (as the name implies)
-TIE Avenger (can be even seen below in picture)

-TIE Defender (since this DSII is complete, the Empire must have crushed the Rebels, and these fighters are in sevice as elite)
-TIE Fighters and Interceptors can be outfittled with missile tubes (As seen in "TIE-Fighter")

So, your answer?

[Thanas]

Well, more like how the Hornet died in WWII. A bomb flew down the ammo elevation in to the magizines and well, you get the idea. A one in a million shot, but damn it, it turned out to be that one in a million.

No... because that's not how Hornet was sunk.

He's probably talking about the USS ST LO (CVE 63).

[Firefox]

Earth is fucked. That's the only conclusion I can reach, given the presence of TIEs, active tractor beam projectors, and, as has been more recently pointed out, its mass and the possibility of hazardous waste could pose problems for Earth.

[Jawawithagun]

as I said in the OP and a few times after: only TIE's may leave the DS (act of Q). And I don't believe the TIE's carry missiles

How about this then. The other vessels the DS is carrying are not disabled in any way (except for not being able to leave the DS). So they still carry working shields and guns etc.
It should be possible to maneuver them inside their docking bays to enable them to shoot out of the DS through the hangar doors, using them as temporary guns.

[Darth Wong]

wautd, since you keep revising the conditions of the thread in order to get the outcome you want, why don't you just fucking say "this is the outcome I want" so we can drop this thread?

[Trekdestroyer]

Wankity scenario: The feddies beam a big bomb into the DSII and the DS goes with an enormous bang.

Real scenario:The bomb goes in and kills off some personel, but the DS is intact and fuctioning for the most part.