Wager 400 hundred Quatloo's on the new comer....

[Jay]

Ok. Here's the deal. You're a severed brain in a jar and you have four hundred quatloo's to wager on the new-comer.

In the ring are James T. Kirk, in the prime of his life (think the Arena, or Spave Seed) and Han Solo. (also in his prime.)

Neither have any weapons or armour. This is a ripped-shirt ordeal. Niether may leave. Neither may have any outside help. One must live. One must die.

Who do you bet on? And most importantly: why?

I'm going away for three weeks and won't see the answers until I get back. And as always, I'm sorry if this has been done before.

[Gustav32Vasa]

Shouldnt this be in the Vs?

[The Spartan]

I voted for Kirk. I don't recall Han getting into all that many fist fights, if at all. He was far more dependant on being able to either talk or blast his way out of trouble. Kirk on the other hand managed to defeat a Klingon in hand to hand (ST2:WOK).

[Lone_Prodigy]

Solo, since in one of the Tales books he got into a death ring brawl with three huge thugs when he was in his late teens and won.

[Mange]

I vote for Solo.

[Mark S]

Solo. He'll fight dirty.

[Stravo]

Solo. He'll fight dirty.

What good is dirty fighting when Kirk will pull the patented Kirk Fu Wrap your legs around your opponent's throat and pull both of you down to the ground while holding yourself up on an engineering grate maneuver.

I may have to answer this question myself sometime soon.

[Firefox]

All is lost for Solo if Kirk's shirt is ripped up.

[Crazedwraith]

I voted for Kirk. I don't recall Han getting into all that many fist fights, if at all. He was far more dependant on being able to either talk or blast his way out of trouble. Kirk on the other hand managed to defeat a Klingon in hand to hand (ST2:WOK).

There were no klingons in TWOK.

However I think Kirk has much more experiance in this kinda thing. Hans more of a shoot you under the table with a DL-44 type of chap.

[Darth Fanboy]

This depends on wether or not it is Han Solo prior to the Battle of Yavin or the Greedo shooting Han Solo before then. Kirk doesn't believe in the no-win scenario you know, so he'll naturally assume there is a way out without having to kill anyone, the not-so-valiant Han would then take advantage and use that against Kirk.

[The Spartan]

There were no klingons in TWOK.

However I think Kirk has much more experiance in this kinda thing. Hans more of a shoot you under the table with a DL-44 type of chap.

You're right, I was thinking of ST3 but put ST2 for some odd reason...

[brianeyci]

The "no-win" scenario thing only applies if Kirk knows Han is a good guy. To Kirk, Han is just another person threatening himself and by extension his ship. Did Kirk ever stop in TOS Arena to try and make peace with the Gorn? Did Kirk stop in TOS Gamesters of Triskelion to make peace with aliens who were attacking his officers? No, he orders hand to hand immediately after the hand phasers were disabled -- Picard variety would have wasted time with some Superman speech about how "we don't have to fight". Did Kirk stop and try and make peace with people who were trying to kill him ever? Think ST:IV, where Kirk kicks the Klingon into a fiery death -- Picard would have tried to save the Klingon's life despite the Klingon trying to kill him. Kirk is obviously willing to take life to save his own ship and that's what counts.

With experience (he's fought Roman Gladiators, outsmarted a Gorn with many times his strength, fought Klingons, fought a Vulcan, fought numerous aliens all hand-to-hand), Kirk wins. Not to mention his unorthodox fighting style, which seems to be to get someone in a grapple/submission hold like wrestling and rely on brute strength. You're also forgetting that Kirk can knock someone unconcious with a single blow.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Revised : Kirk does offer his hand to the Klingon, but that is what a good guy does. He is not a fool like Picard and unlike him he would intepret an attack on his ship by a foreign power as "an act of war"... if you don't believe me I'll dig up the quote where Picard says that Ferengi attacking his ship doesn't necessarily mean an act of war.

So, if Han fights dirty and offers his hand to Kirk, Kirk extends his hand and Han gets one free hit. Unless one free hit decides the fight, fighting dirty is not advantage.

Brian

[Vicious]

Han, though it might be a close match. Despite his lack of CQC action in the movies, Han is skilled at unarmed combat. In the Tales of the Bounty Hunters, we witness a flashback of Boba Fett watching a teenage Han take down three thugish bullies in a Free-for-all match on a backwater shitworld. Kirk is no stranger to the ol' fist and foot either, but I'd put my money on Han being in better shape as well as being sharper. He's an outlaw, and thus always on the alert for bounty hunters and authority types looking to nab him. Kirk's situation is a bit different, being captain of a military vessel and all.

[Darth Lucifer]

Here is another important thing to consider to the OP...Where are they? In a UFC octagon? On the bridge of the Enterprise? A boxing ring? Teleported to the funky shaped arena sitting in front of the brains? Also, do they have the control mechanisms from the episode in question?

For now I am assuming a sterile environment, meaning nothing surrounding them can be used as a weapon. But terrain is always a consideration in unarmed combat.

I'm also putting my quatloos on Kirk...I will try to dig up some EU Solo fighting just to be fair and balanced (to steal a phrase), but I can recall many instances where Kirk has been shown to be fairly skilled in unarmed combat...many of them have been mentioned here already.

Personally, I think Solo would smash the brains in the jar, but then again, that goes back to the degree of control we the brains have over our two gladiators.

[Darth Lucifer]

oops...he said ring...scratch the part about terrain...I just woke up...

[Mark S]

Solo. He'll fight dirty.

What good is dirty fighting when Kirk will pull the patented Kirk Fu Wrap your legs around your opponent's throat and pull both of you down to the ground while holding yourself up on an engineering grate maneuver.

I may have to answer this question myself sometime soon.

In that particular situation I see the beleaguered Captain Solo grabbing our good Captain Kirk squarely by the bean bag and twisting. Then, paraphrase Homer Simpson, when he's lying on the ground moaning, that's when you kick some back!

[Darth Servo]

Solo. Especially if its the real Solo, not the one who doesn't shoot first.

[Vicious]

With experience (he's fought Roman Gladiators, outsmarted a Gorn with many times his strength, fought Klingons, fought a Vulcan, fought numerous aliens all hand-to-hand), Kirk wins. Not to mention his unorthodox fighting style, which seems to be to get someone in a grapple/submission hold like wrestling and rely on brute strength. You're also forgetting that Kirk can knock someone unconcious with a single blow.

Couple points here. First, how does outsmarting someone who's several times stronger than you prove battle prowess? I could easily outsmart a gorilla. Doesn't mean I'd stand a snowballs chance in hell in an unarmed fight versus one. Second, in regards to Kirk's "unorthodox fighting style", it really isn't all that uncommon. Watch an average street brawl or schoolyard fight. Nine times out of ten both combatants are on the ground, using weight and leverage to try to gain an advantage. It's the rare fight where both combatants are martial artists and fight like Neo and Smith.

[brianeyci]

Couple points here. First, how does outsmarting someone who's several times stronger than you prove battle prowess? I could easily outsmart a gorilla. Doesn't mean I'd stand a snowballs chance in hell in an unarmed fight versus one.

True, it does not. But Kirk did last against Spock (didn't defeat him though), and Vulcans are supposedly 3x stronger than humans from Sisko's comment in DS9. Also, Kirk is strong enough to knock someone unconcious with a single blow to the back of the head or the neck (he does this a lot).

Second, in regards to Kirk's "unorthodox fighting style", it really isn't all that uncommon. Watch an average street brawl or schoolyard fight. Nine times out of ten both combatants are on the ground, using weight and leverage to try to gain an advantage. It's the rare fight where both combatants are martial artists and fight like Neo and Smith.

You're right, grapple is not unorthodox at all. Although Kirk's flying leg kick (he needs to jump from above to do this), five-second knockout chokehold, and dual-fist swinging punch are beyond anything I would expect in a schoolyard/street brawl.

If anybody tried to roundhouse Kirk's head, I would think Kirk would obviously charge him/her and it would end up being a grapple. When Kirk fights, he keeps his hands up in front of him and has a wide, stable stance. I would like to hear a real martial artist's comment about how effective Kirk's style would be.

Brian

[Crossroads Inc.]

Well all I have to say, is that since this is Ripped-Shirt Kirk, as much as a may LIKE Solor, it will be a foregon conclusion that Kirk will win...

Unless your Vader himself you do not win against Ripped shirt Kirk...

Besides, Solo may be smart, but without a blaster, I;m not sure how fully competant he is as a down and dirt fighter.

[Darth Servo]

Did Kirk ever stop in TOS Arena to try and make peace with the Gorn?

No because doing so would have meant instant death.

Did Kirk stop in TOS Gamesters of Triskelion to make peace with aliens who were attacking his officers?

No, because again, he had little choice in the matter.

Think ST:IV, where Kirk kicks the Klingon into a fiery death -- Picard would have tried to save the Klingon's life despite the Klingon trying to kill him. Kirk is obviously willing to take life to save his own ship and that's what counts.

Don't you mean ST:III? And the incident only proves Klingons are vastly overrated if an aging overweight Kirk can kick his ass.

With experience (he's fought Roman Gladiators,

No one has armor here.

outsmarted a Gorn with many times his strength,

There is no makeshift gunpowder here. In a brawl, the Gorn would have beat him easily.

fought Klingons,

Over rated.

fought a Vulcan,

and lost.

fought numerous aliens all hand-to-hand),

The fighting abilities of whom have not been established.

You're also forgetting that Kirk can knock someone unconcious with a single blow.

When did that happen? If he could, he wouldn't need Spock to give everyone the Vulcan Nerve Pinch now, would he?

Besides, knocking person 'A' out doesn't mean being able to knock out anyone.

[Praxis]

From the novels, Solo is a very experienced brawler.

It depends on the setting. Is this a bar brawl? In that case, Solo fights dirty weilding chairs and table legs and stuff. Is it in an open arena? In that case, very close match.

I'm gonna go for Solo.

[brianeyci]

When did that happen? If he could, he wouldn't need Spock to give everyone the Vulcan Nerve Pinch now, would he?

Besides, knocking person 'A' out doesn't mean being able to knock out anyone.

Don't you watch Star Trek? Kirk sneaks up to people and does this all the time. The dialogue goes something like this,

<Kirk knocks someone out from behind>
Spock : Doesn't that hurt?
Kirk : Yes.

From then on he lets Spock do Vulcan nerve pinch because it doesn't hurt as much. Also you're forgetting Kirk can knock someone unconcious with a chokehold in a few seconds. If it turns into a grapple, Kirk wins.

The whole point about negotiation is the only way "fighting dirty" would matter is if Han offerred a truce. It is a ring, with nothing around (if I intepret the op correctly). It's not like Kirk has not kicked someone in the balls before. The only thing I don't remember Kirk doing is poking someone in the eye.

Brian

[Vicious]

Also, Kirk is strong enough to knock someone unconcious with a single blow to the back of the head or the neck (he does this a lot).

Knocking someone unconcious by hitting them hard in the back of the head or neck is not much of a feat. It takes certain amount of strength, but it's more a matter of location than power.

If anybody tried to roundhouse Kirk's head, I would think Kirk would obviously charge him/her and it would end up being a grapple. When Kirk fights, he keeps his hands up in front of him and has a wide, stable stance. I would like to hear a real martial artist's comment about how effective Kirk's style would be.

Having studied Tae Kwon Do several years ago, and the fact that my preferred method of quickly ending fights versus opponents in my weight range and below is to get them on the ground as fast as possible and essentially pin/hold them, I can attest to it's effectiveness in the right circumstances. It's the least physically damaging, and it requires very little finesse. However, I wouldn't use it against someone skilled in unarmed combat, as there are plenty of ways to exploit it. By surrendering your mobility, you make yourself vulnerable if your opponent can break out of your hold.

Kirk's wide stance is alright, but no stance is invulnerable. He can handle straight on charging attacks and wide attacks like roundhouses, but a sharp blow to his knee or groin could drop him to the floor and leave him in a poor position. Also, an opponent who's fast enough could get inside Kirk's defence and hit him hard in a vital spot, like the neck or groin before Kirk can grapple. Also, he's limited as to what he can do offensively with his legs, which reduces the number of attacks his opponent has to watch for.

I don't really know much about Han's fighting style, so it's hard to comment on how he'd match up to Kirk when it comes to stance and style. Han isn't a big guy though, so it's more likely that he's of the fast and hard approach, rather than the grapple method.