What-if situation, could the Feddies pull it off?

[Lone_Prodigy]

True, my point was that Bakura is by no means an example of the typical Imperial defenses. For all we know it was very isolated in particular, or the ISD for it's system had been rerouted to Endor, leaving a Carrack to "hold the fort".

[Darth Fanboy]

As far as the Empire knows, their target is completely defenseless, so they aren't going to send in a thousand Star Destroyers.

Maybe not a thosuand but I would argue that the Empire is going to send more than enough troops and equipment for a large scale invasion, and by Imperial standards thats going to mean heaps of ships, troops, and equipment and heaps of big guns to guard them.

[Techno_Union]

True, my point was that Bakura is by no means an example of the typical Imperial defenses. For all we know it was very isolated in particular, or the ISD for it's system had been rerouted to Endor, leaving a Carrack to "hold the fort".

If I recall correctly, didn't the book say that most of the defense force was already destroyed by the time the Rebels arrived, and that the only defenses left were the Carrack cruiser and a few fighters?

[Lone_Prodigy]

Yes indeed. It makes us wonder how big the defense force originally was...

[lPeregrine]

As far as the Empire knows, their target is completely defenseless, so they aren't going to send in a thousand Star Destroyers.

Maybe not a thosuand but I would argue that the Empire is going to send more than enough troops and equipment for a large scale invasion, and by Imperial standards thats going to mean heaps of ships, troops, and equipment and heaps of big guns to guard them.

Why? They know with absolute confidence that even the largest ship in the new galaxy would have a hard time damaging anything larger than a fighter. And they know even a single Star Destroyer could handle the entire Federation fleet, if they didn't just use their superior hyperdrive speed to go around them completely. So why divert ships from elsewhere, possibly leaving targets open to attack in their own universe? Remember those internal conflicts that had 90% of the fleet keeping its own systems behaving? Or the rebellion? Any sane commander is going to send a relatively light force in the first wave, not complete overkill.

[Darth Fanboy]

Why? They know with absolute confidence that even the largest ship in the new galaxy would have a hard time damaging anything larger than a fighter. And they know even a single Star Destroyer could handle the entire Federation fleet, if they didn't just use their superior hyperdrive speed to go around them completely. So why divert ships from elsewhere, possibly leaving targets open to attack in their own universe? Remember those internal conflicts that had 90% of the fleet keeping its own systems behaving? Or the rebellion? Any sane commander is going to send a relatively light force in the first wave, not complete overkill.

Why wouldn't the Empire try for a blitzing style of attack? The quicker you conquer the new galaxy you give potential Rebels less time to become entrenched or organizaed. You speak of 90% of the fleet being tied up, but the Empire can still draw the resources to put together an incredibly formidable first wave of attack.

You rule out 90% of the fleet. Leaving ten percent of the fleet to draw from for this operation. thats 2500 star destroyers (if the 25,000 Star destroyers quote is to be believed) plus support craft and other ships. I would bet that the Emperor, or whoever is in charge in this case would use between less than one percent of the fleet, 200 star destroyers plus support craft. Yes you have that many fewer star destroyers against the Rebellion and force back home, but whoever is in charge (the Emperor likely) is going to see the potential reward outweigh the risk. Send in 200 Star Destroyers plus support, make a sizeable grab that can be defended, and then set up mining facilities and shipyards.

[lPeregrine]

Again, why bother? A single Star Destroyer is a fair match for the entire Federation military. It's just that one-sided, a single ship is massively overwhelming force. As far as they know, there's no reason to divert any more ships from their usual duties. We've seen in various sources that the Empire doesn't hit a target with a million times more force than it needs to get the job done. A pair of Star Destroyers and some freighters for the ground forces would be more than enough to win the war.

And what rebellion is going to happen, when the other side can't even scratch the paint on your ships? All they need to end a rebellion is a couple BDZ demonstrations of uncooperative worlds, and nobody fights back anymore.

What the Empire would need to make good use of their new territory would be freighters to carry over industrial and mining equipment to start exploiting its resources. You know, the kind of ships you don't risk on the front lines of a war, and wouldn't be sent in until the target was secure.

[Lone_Prodigy]

Again, why bother? A single Star Destroyer is a fair match for the entire Federation military. It's just that one-sided, a single ship is massively overwhelming force. As far as they know, there's no reason to divert any more ships from their usual duties. We've seen in various sources that the Empire doesn't hit a target with a million times more force than it needs to get the job done. A pair of Star Destroyers and some freighters for the ground forces would be more than enough to win the war.

The point that he had was that winning is good, but the Emperor would want to win fast. He has thousands of ISDs just sitting around on their asses, so he would likely send in a sizeable force that could dominate the Federation within the hour and then move on and begin to rampantly conquer territory across the Federation galaxy before the dust even settles and word gets out. After all, don't you love hyperdrive, which is 10x faster than Federation communication speed?

[Darth Fanboy]

Again, why bother? A single Star Destroyer is a fair match for the entire Federation military. It's just that one-sided, a single ship is massively overwhelming force. As far as they know, there's no reason to divert any more ships from their usual duties. We've seen in various sources that the Empire doesn't hit a target with a million times more force than it needs to get the job done. A pair of Star Destroyers and some freighters for the ground forces would be more than enough to win the war.[/i]

Because One ISD cannot take and hold a lot of territory. If the Empire is invading the AQ then their goals is to take and hold a LOT of territory.

And what rebellion is going to happen, when the other side can't even scratch the paint on your ships? All they need to end a rebellion is a couple BDZ demonstrations of uncooperative worlds, and nobody fights back anymore.

Doesn't mean they can't set up organizations on their worlds, and terrorist/rebel cells on occupied worlds. And despite all of the Imperial demonstrations throughout the galaxy there are still people fighitng back there also in whatever way they can, you'll argue that the Rebels have a better tech level, but not all of them are fighting on starships.

What the Empire would need to make good use of their new territory would be freighters to carry over industrial and mining equipment to start exploiting its resources. You know, the kind of ships you don't risk on the front lines of a war, and wouldn't be sent in until the target was secure.

And pray tell who is escorting these ships? And how are these ships going to move around with only ONE ISD as you're saying. I think you're hitting the wank-juice a little hard there bud.

[lPeregrine]

The point that he had was that winning is good, but the Emperor would want to win fast. He has thousands of ISDs just sitting around on their asses, so he would likely send in a sizeable force that could dominate the Federation within the hour and then move on and begin to rampantly conquer territory across the Federation galaxy before the dust even settles and word gets out. After all, don't you love hyperdrive, which is 10x faster than Federation communication speed?

Then why hasn't this happened in the past? Why do we have examples like the Han Solo trilogy, where the attack on the Hutts wasn't even worth a single Star Destroyer? And nobody thought this was anything even slightly odd?

From the perspective of the Empire, the Federation and its galaxy is even less important than some minor Outer Rim world.
-------------------------------------------------

Because One ISD cannot take and hold a lot of territory. If the Empire is invading the AQ then their goals is to take and hold a LOT of territory.

As far as they know, they won't need to take and hold territory. The Federation's surrender will be recieved as soon as they can figure out who's the highest ranking survivor to send it now that Earth has been BDZed.

Lets put you in the place of a Federation captain. Your government has just surrendered after the complete destruction of its capital world, while your entire navy watched helplessly. Your weapons can't even scratch the paint on your enemy's smallest ship. You know that even if you can by divine intervention destroy an ISD, the Empire has 25,000 more of them. You have been informed that any resistance will result in more dead worlds. Do you fight back, and annoy the Empire into killing more people, or do you surrender as well?

The Empire is going to know the facts just as well, and isn't going to see any need to divert more than a handful of ships.

Doesn't mean they can't set up organizations on their worlds, and terrorist/rebel cells on occupied worlds. And despite all of the Imperial demonstrations throughout the galaxy there are still people fighitng back there also in whatever way they can, you'll argue that the Rebels have a better tech level, but not all of them are fighting on starships.

Cells that will do what? Attack their own population? Blow up Federation citizens as a statement of protest? That's all they can do, the Empire's tech advantage is that overwhelming. Unlike the Rebels, they have no way of even reaching Imperial targets to attack.

The Rebels can do it because they have equivalent technology. There's more to tech level than just starships, and the Federation are unbelievably far behind in all areas.

And pray tell who is escorting these ships? And how are these ships going to move around with only ONE ISD as you're saying. I think you're hitting the wank-juice a little hard there bud.

They wouldn't need escort, once the initial scout force has proved their intelligence correct. All the Empire needs is a Star Destroyer or two to force a surrender and demonstrate the price of disobedience, then a second wave of whatever resource-exploitation they want to send in.

As far as the Empire knows, there isn't a single threat in the Star Trek universe. An Imperial freighter there is even safer than it would be in Corruscant orbit. Why tie up escort ships where they aren't needed?

[Lone_Prodigy]

From the perspective of the Empire, the Federation and its galaxy is even less important than some minor Outer Rim world.

The resources of an easily-conquered galaxy are far more valuable than the Hutts' entire holdings a hundred times over.

[lPeregrine]

From the perspective of the Empire, the Federation and its galaxy is even less important than some minor Outer Rim world.

The resources of an easily-conquered galaxy are far more valuable than the Hutts' entire holdings a hundred times over.

Important in military terms is what I meant. Like the Federation, they were expected to be an easy target. I know their resources are more, but that needs mining ships/trade organizations/etc to exploit, not massive fleets.

The point of the example was to disprove the idea that the Empire would send a massive fleet against the Federation, one far out of proportion to the military requirement. Against the Hutts, a world with equivalent technology to the Empire (and therefore able to fight back), they didn't even consider it worth diverting a single Star Destroyer. And more importantly, nobody thought this was incredibly odd and wondered "why isn't the Empire sending a hundred ISDs like they usually do?" This proves that even though the forces may exist, the Empire does not waste military power where it isn't needed.

[Master of Cards]

may I say mines lots and lots of mines.

[Star-Blighter]

Nice new sports ca-uh, I mean stardestroyers and a how-to book are all well and good, but it doesn't grant the ability to develope a new (and quite likely, utterly alien) technological and industrial base over-night. Even over a period of centuries, the fedies likely will have a somewhat fleeting grasp of hyperdrive with it's lack of subspace dependence, or hypermatter reactors. (they might just crack SW fusion). How would they develope Dura-armor and turbolaser tech when their most powerfull ships would most likely be destroyed by TROOP transports. Bacta and related tech may not be usable do to lack of appropriate materials to make it. Hyperwave would be doable in my opinion but I doubt the feds could come up with a communications service on par with Holonet in a reasonable time.

StarWars technological progression has been stagnent for a period of time longer then the feds have been around PERIOD. Think about that for a moment and consider the stagering technology gap that statement implies.

[lPeregrine]

But the point is, they don't need to win a war. By act of Q, all they have to do is win two fleet battles. They've got 5 star destroyers, full intelligence, ten years to prepare, and an enemy that doesn't know what's coming. They can pick their two fights, on whatever terms they want. The rest of the war is entirely irrelevant.

The only question is how big a battle is required to count towards their quota. By the standards of a lot of the EU battles, the five star destroyers alone can win it for them.

[Star-Blighter]

But the point is, they don't need to win a war. By act of Q, all they have to do is win two fleet battles. They've got 5 star destroyers, full intelligence, ten years to prepare, and an enemy that doesn't know what's coming. They can pick their two fights, on whatever terms they want. The rest of the war is entirely irrelevant.

The only question is how big a battle is required to count towards their quota. By the standards of a lot of the EU battles, the five star destroyers alone can win it for them.

In ten years, all the feds are likely to have are the very same 5 stardestroyers and maybe some limited form of holonet. The fedies might win the first engagement by virtue of suprise, however you have to remeber that the empire is USED to dealing with forces of the same firepower as those five stardestroyers. The feds won't get a second chance at "free lunch".

Lets me ask a question. Do you think that given ten years, that the feds could hold off Death Sqaudron with the resources provided by the OP?

I sure as hell don't believe so.

[lPeregrine]

Code: Select all

The feds won't get a second chance at "free lunch". 

Why not? The Empire doesn't have instant reaction time. They can't instantly redeploy their forces the moment the Federation attacks. Even if they realized where the five destroyers came from, it would take time to counter them. There's going to be a long enough window in which the Federation can pick their fights to get in two victories.

Remember, with hyperdrive's speed they could hit targets on opposite sides of the galaxy within a week of each other. There's no way the Empire can anticipate that.

however you have to remeber that the empire is USED to dealing with forces of the same firepower as those five stardestroyers.

Remember, by the standards of a lot of the EU "major battles", five star destroyers is a pretty considerable force. We've seen countless battles where those destroyers would win almost effortlessly. There are going to be plenty of 5-destroyer targets to pick from.

Lets me ask a question. Do you think that given ten years, that the feds could hold off Death Sqaudron with the resources provided by the OP?

It would depend on the circumstances, but probably not. But let me ask you a question, why would Death Squadron get involved? They aren't needed, and the Empire has a canon history of not sending massive overkill to weakly defended targets. By the time a force equivalent to Death Squadron gets involved, the war is over.

[Thanas]

Then why hasn't this happened in the past? Why do we have examples like the Han Solo trilogy, where the attack on the Hutts wasn't even worth a single Star Destroyer? And nobody thought this was anything even slightly odd?

Nope. Since Han solo clearly states that if the Imp fleet had "one of the new Star Destroyers" at their disposal, the battle would have been over. The Hutts sector simply weren't that important to send a Star Destroyer.
Plus, the Imps were ordered to loose. (Although they came damm close to winning the battle)

[Star-Blighter]

Code: Select all

The feds won't get a second chance at "free lunch". 

Why not? The Empire doesn't have instant reaction time. They can't instantly redeploy their forces the moment the Federation attacks. Even if they realized where the five destroyers came from, it would take time to counter them. There's going to be a long enough window in which the Federation can pick their fights to get in two victories.

Remember, with hyperdrive's speed they could hit targets on opposite sides of the galaxy within a week of each other. There's no way the Empire can anticipate that.

however you have to remeber that the empire is USED to dealing with forces of the same firepower as those five stardestroyers.

Remember, by the standards of a lot of the EU "major battles", five star destroyers is a pretty considerable force. We've seen countless battles where those destroyers would win almost effortlessly. There are going to be plenty of 5-destroyer targets to pick from.

Lets me ask a question. Do you think that given ten years, that the feds could hold off Death Sqaudron with the resources provided by the OP?

It would depend on the circumstances, but probably not. But let me ask you a question, why would Death Squadron get involved? They aren't needed, and the Empire has a canon history of not sending massive overkill to weakly defended targets. By the time a force equivalent to Death Squadron gets involved, the war is over.

Your point is crutched on the Imperials not using hyperspace coms to inform the big-wigs that for some reason five of THEIR ships are attacking outlying worlds.

EU minimalism is not something I subscribe to. I maintain that the hot-rod force of ISD's will be facing a unified empire with access to fleets numbers that are rather overwhelming.

I doubt five Imperators would stand up to an equivelent force of Allegiance class Stardestroyers anyway, so Death Squadron is not actually needed, it was only an example.

[lPeregrine]

Then why hasn't this happened in the past? Why do we have examples like the Han Solo trilogy, where the attack on the Hutts wasn't even worth a single Star Destroyer? And nobody thought this was anything even slightly odd?

Nope. Since Han solo clearly states that if the Imp fleet had "one of the new Star Destroyers" at their disposal, the battle would have been over. The Hutts sector simply weren't that important to send a Star Destroyer.
Plus, the Imps were ordered to loose. (Although they came damm close to winning the battle)

My point exactly. It is no surprise when the Empire attacks without insanely overwhelming force against a target that doesn't need it. According to the information they have, the Federation is even less important a military target, and even less capable of resistance.

[lPeregrine]

Your point is crutched on the Imperials not using hyperspace coms to inform the big-wigs that for some reason five of THEIR ships are attacking outlying worlds.

Comm time isn't the only factor in slowing down fleet deployments. Plans don't get made instantly. Intelligence doesn't get interpreted instantly to know where the destroyers came from. It's going to take time for the Imperial chain of command to react in an effective way.

And remember, this isn't a war. They need two victories, regardless of where they hit. None of the usual strategies apply here, the Empire is going to have no way of predicting which of the countless potential targets are going to get hit. The first reaction would probably be assuming a traitor, and predicting targets based on this.

EU minimalism is not something I subscribe to. I maintain that the hot-rod force of ISD's will be facing a unified empire with access to fleets numbers that are rather overwhelming.

Those fleets can't be everywhere at the same time. The Federation has full intelligence, complete surprise, and like it or not, a force capable of matching some of the canon "major battles". Just because they're unified doesn't mean their command decisions get made instantly and perfectly. Finding two weak spots is nothing, in a galaxy that large.

I doubt five Imperators would stand up to an equivelent force of Allegiance class Stardestroyers anyway, so Death Squadron is not actually needed, it was only an example.

Except that they don't have to fight an equivalent force of Allegiance class ships. With full intelligence and total surprise, they can pick targets that don't outmatch them so badly.

[Scrubula]

The wormhole is going be a huge chokepoint that the Federation can use to limit the numbers advantage of the empire. Given the sheer amount of defenses they could have set up in the 10 years they have, it's going to be pretty damn near impregnable. Like someone said above, can you say mines? The self-replicating kind, and in ridiculous numbers. That, alone, could potentially styme the empire indefinitly. Surrounding the wormhole with some sort of hyperspace jammers to slow the ships up if they ever did get through would be a possibility also. Then there are ships, stations, defensive platforms, etc, etc. The Feds could put more than enough strength there to prevent the empire from using it to gain entry to their galaxy.

Hell, with the choke point advantage I would think that the 5SD's alone could hold the wormhole against all but the most overwhelming odds.

As to the SD's, the Feds could make some much needed improvements on them also. A massive sensor and computer upgrade to start off with. Upgrading their weapons systems and tractor beams to be automated instead of requiring 10 man crews to operate each gun or beam emplacement. (I know it's 10 for the tractor beams, not sure how many in each gun crew) These improvements would mean a HUGE increase in firing accuracy for the SD's, making them much deadlier than a standard SW SD.

Can the Fed's travel through the wormhole before the 10 years is up? If so then they can probably meet the two engagment victory condition long before the 10 years is up.

[Ghost Rider]

The scenario does come down to this simple idea.

We give 1914 America 5 F-15's....with everything they need to know about it, BUT...no industry behind it.

Is 1914 US in 1924 going to build a fleet?

If you answer yes, then you are just being ignorant to a great many things about industry.

And so far loads of people are thinking that for some reason, that because they know the little stuff, that aside from the ISDs they are going to do shit against the Empire if invasion happens.

Oh and after the first loss...I want to hear something other then "Well, they just WOULD!" as to why the Empire wouldn't send something the equvilent of Death Squadron to crush these upstarts with THEIR technology since they didn't have it before?

[Ghost Rider]

The wormhole is going be a huge chokepoint that the Federation can use to limit the numbers advantage of the empire. Given the sheer amount of defenses they could have set up in the 10 years they have, it's going to be pretty damn near impregnable. Like someone said above, can you say mines? The self-replicating kind, and in ridiculous numbers. That, alone, could potentially styme the empire indefinitly. Surrounding the wormhole with some sort of hyperspace jammers to slow the ships up if they ever did get through would be a possibility also. Then there are ships, stations, defensive platforms, etc, etc. The Feds could put more than enough strength there to prevent the empire from using it to gain entry to their galaxy.

Hell, with the choke point advantage I would think that the 5SD's alone could hold the wormhole against all but the most overwhelming odds.

As to the SD's, the Feds could make some much needed improvements on them also. A massive sensor and computer upgrade to start off with. Upgrading their weapons systems and tractor beams to be automated instead of requiring 10 man crews to operate each gun or beam emplacement. (I know it's 10 for the tractor beams, not sure how many in each gun crew) These improvements would mean a HUGE increase in firing accuracy for the SD's, making them much deadlier than a standard SW SD.

Can the Fed's travel through the wormhole before the 10 years is up? If so then they can probably meet the two engagment victory condition long before the 10 years is up.

Since you're new here, I'll ask you this.

Prove your assertions. Most of what you've just said has been pretty much trounced, but hey if you've got new evidence, bring it forth instead of asserting that obviously the Federation will improve said technology.

[lPeregrine]

The scenario does come down to this simple idea.

We give 1914 America 5 F-15's....with everything they need to know about it, BUT...no industry behind it.

Is 1914 US in 1924 going to build a fleet?

If you answer yes, then you are just being ignorant to a great many things about industry.

And so far loads of people are thinking that for some reason, that because they know the little stuff, that aside from the ISDs they are going to do shit against the Empire if invasion happens.

Oh and after the first loss...I want to hear something other then "Well, they just WOULD!" as to why the Empire wouldn't send something the equvilent of Death Squadron to crush these upstarts with THEIR technology since they didn't have it before?

Of course they can't match the Empire's technology, or even come close in ten years. I know perfectly well any improvements in Federation technology are going to be insignificant compared to what they face.

But the analogy would be more appropriate as "give the 1914 US 5 battleships and expect them to kill two ships". Except it's even easier, as hyperdrive gives those five ships the ability to outrun delays in the Imperial chain of command and fill the victory quota before the Imperial counter-attack can do any real damage.