A very crippled DSII reaches earth's orbit

[Firefox]

More realistic scenario: transporter beam fails to beam the bomb through the station's dense armor belt.

[Junghalli]

*Should the Feds hurl asteroids at the DS, they can re-direct them. Probably directly into earth.

I'm not so sure about that. It seems a bit of a leap in logic to suggest that the DSII's tractor beams would be able to hold off a Texas-sized asteroid heading straight for it.
Some thoughts.
Would it be possible to cloak a large asteroid? Maybe by buying a couple of hundred cloaking devices from the Romulans and distributing them over the asteroid's surface?
Most asteroid deflection schemes today rely on deflecting the asteroid by detonating shaped-charge nukes on one side of it to produce a crude rocket effect. Could a similar operation work with the DSII? Wait until it reaches the extreme point of its orbit and then throw a lot of antimatter onto one side of it, thus deflecting it out of orbit of Earth and preferrably into a collision course with the sun or one of the other planets.

[Firefox]

I'm not so sure about that. It seems a bit of a leap in logic to suggest that the DSII's tractor beams would be able to hold off a Texas-sized asteroid heading straight for it.

What's to stop the DSII from deflecting the asteroid with more than one projector? A Texas-sized space rock would be even more devastating to Earth than throwing smaller chunks at the station, and cloaking it wouldn't work, as the station would have a CGT device.

Most asteroid deflection schemes today rely on deflecting the asteroid by detonating shaped-charge nukes on one side of it to produce a crude rocket effect. Could a similar operation work with the DSII?

And how do they get close enough to pull this off without the plan being nullified by the aforementioned tractor beams?

[Junghalli]

What's to stop the DSII from deflecting the asteroid with more than one projector?

Because it's a no limits fallacy to think that just because the DS' tractor beams can manipulate ships a fraction of its size they can also manipulate objects bigger than the DS itself.

[The Silence and I]

<snip>

as I said in the OP and a few times after: only TIE's may leave the DS (act of Q). And I don't believe the TIE's carry missiles

Do you mean only common TIE fighters? Because several TIE craft variants do carry missiles; the best example is the TIE bomber, of which the DS should have several squadrons at least.

If you want only fighters without missile capability then you should specify that.

[The Silence and I]

What's to stop the DSII from deflecting the asteroid with more than one projector?

Because it's a no limits fallacy to think that just because the DS' tractor beams can manipulate ships a fraction of its size they can also manipulate objects bigger than the DS itself.

It is not inconcievable that the DS has enough tractor power to slightly deflect a large asteroid enough so that it misses the station; however it might be unreasonable to assume the DS can stop a large asteroid if it is heading directly for the station as this trajectory makes applying a sideways delta vee very difficult.

[Techno_Union]

For what it's worth, the EGTVV says the DS I's tractor beams could even capture an ISD if they worked with each other, and an ISD isn't likely to just sit there and take it.

Would it be possible to cloak a large asteroid? Maybe by buying a couple of hundred cloaking devices from the Romulans and distributing them over the asteroid's surface?

Why would the Romulans sell them cloaking devices when it's against the treaty? Them giving the Defiant one doesn't mean they'll give out dozens more.

Most asteroid deflection schemes today rely on deflecting the asteroid by detonating shaped-charge nukes on one side of it to produce a crude rocket effect. Could a similar operation work with the DSII? Wait until it reaches the extreme point of its orbit and then throw a lot of antimatter onto one side of it, thus deflecting it out of orbit of Earth and preferrably into a collision course with the sun or one of the other planets.

Isn't it also possible that the DS keep a tractor beam on the asteroid while it hits Earth?

Not that it would really change any outcome, but couldn't the Imps use the tractor beams to cause mass devastation on Earth (by screwing with tectonic plates and what not), to get the Feds to stop attacking? Or something along those line.

[Junghalli]

For what it's worth, the EGTVV says the DS I's tractor beams could even capture an ISD if they worked with each other, and an ISD isn't likely to just sit there and take it.

A 1.6 km ISD I would think would be a lot easier to manipulate than some of the huge asteroids you find in the asteroid belt and the Kuiper belt, some of which are comparable in size to the DSII. As far as I know there's no evidence that the DSII's tractor beams could stop a ~800 km asteroid that's been thrown straight at it.

[Techno_Union]

A 1.6 km ISD I would think would be a lot easier to manipulate than some of the huge asteroids you find in the asteroid belt and the Kuiper belt, some of which are comparable in size to the DSII. As far as I know there's no evidence that the DSII's tractor beams could stop a ~800 km asteroid that's been thrown straight at it.

Curious, could the Feds even tractor an asteroid of that size?

I brought up the ISD example because it would be likely that an ISD would be attempting to flee out of the tractor beams, thus the tractor beams would be pretty powerful to keep one either in place or to pull it in closer.

[Tribun]

For what it's worth, the EGTVV says the DS I's tractor beams could even capture an ISD if they worked with each other, and an ISD isn't likely to just sit there and take it.

A 1.6 km ISD I would think would be a lot easier to manipulate than some of the huge asteroids you find in the asteroid belt and the Kuiper belt, some of which are comparable in size to the DSII. As far as I know there's no evidence that the DSII's tractor beams could stop a ~800 km asteroid that's been thrown straight at it.

Assuming they can even move such a big asteroid.
Remember "Deja Q" and that they were unable to affect the orbit of a 2.5 km asteroid moon.

[The Silence and I]

For what it's worth, the EGTVV says the DS I's tractor beams could even capture an ISD if they worked with each other, and an ISD isn't likely to just sit there and take it.

A 1.6 km ISD I would think would be a lot easier to manipulate than some of the huge asteroids you find in the asteroid belt and the Kuiper belt, some of which are comparable in size to the DSII. As far as I know there's no evidence that the DSII's tractor beams could stop a ~800 km asteroid that's been thrown straight at it.

Assuming they can even move such a big asteroid.
Remember "Deja Q" and that they were unable to affect the orbit of a 2.5 km asteroid moon.

No, that is not correct. They could effect the orbit they simply couldn't change its course fast enough to avoid impact (and actually they found a way to pull it off, they were just foiled by alien attack). Several starships working in tandem over the course of days could apply a very large delta vee to any asteroid in our solar system. Also remember, all they have to do is disrupt the 'roid's orbit in a clever fashion that makes it fall into the DS.

[Darth Servo]

No, that is not correct. They could effect the orbit they simply couldn't change its course fast enough to avoid impact (and actually they found a way to pull it off, they were just foiled by alien attack). Several starships working in tandem over the course of days could apply a very large delta vee to any asteroid in our solar system. Also remember, all they have to do is disrupt the 'roid's orbit in a clever fashion that makes it fall into the DS.

it would take warp nine power for seven full hours to accelerate the moon by 4 km/s. Size estimates peg that asteroid at slightly over 2.5 km. Thats nothing to brag about when compared to the Death Star.

[The Silence and I]

No, that is not correct. They could effect the orbit they simply couldn't change its course fast enough to avoid impact (and actually they found a way to pull it off, they were just foiled by alien attack). Several starships working in tandem over the course of days could apply a very large delta vee to any asteroid in our solar system. Also remember, all they have to do is disrupt the 'roid's orbit in a clever fashion that makes it fall into the DS.

it would take warp nine power for seven full hours to accelerate the moon by 4 km/s. Size estimates peg that asteroid at slightly over 2.5 km. Thats nothing to brag about when compared to the Death Star.

Not quite correct. It would take warp nine power for seven hours to apply a delta vee of 4 km/s AND increase its gravitic potential energy by a rather large amount.

And where did you come up with a 2.5 km size?
Link
Link Two

Whatever it is it is bigger than 2.5 km...

There is one other thing: that warp nine power was needed to stiffen the tractor beam enough to transfere the force needed. In a dedicated towing mission with well prepared starships cables can be used instead which decreased the power strain and allows longer towing times.

[Darth Servo]

[quote="The Silence and I"][And where did you come up with a 2.5 km size?

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Dat ... pName=Deja Q

[Crossroads Inc.]

*sarcasm*
Hasn't anyone thought about just shooting a blackhole at the DSII and be done with it?
*sarcasm*

[Junghalli]

Curious, could the Feds even tractor an asteroid of that size?

Ideally if you wanted to change the course of an asteroid you would catch it at periastron (the point in its orbit where it's closest to the sun) and then use shaped-charge explosives (nuclear or antimatter if you have it) to generate a crude rocket effect. While the asteroid is at periastron even a minute shift in its path will result in a wide change in the orbit, so this is considered the best place to do the deflection and used in most RL asteroid deflection scenarios.
As they only have two months this may not be feasable on account of there being no appropriately huge planetoids in suitable orbital positions. They could still do a similar deflection operation, it'd just take more energy (but since they seem to have plenty of antimatter this wouldn't be as big a problem to the Feds as it would be to us). They could also use tractor ships to speed the asteroid along in its new orbit and make adjustments to the new orbit to insure it hits the DSII straight on (this would be easier than towing the small moon in that TNG episode referred to, since here they're towing something that's already moving in the right direction instead of having to drag it out of a planet's gravity well).
Also if I were them after the deflection had been completed I'd go back down and plant more explosives on the trailing edge of the asteroid, these to be detonated when it comes within tractor beam range of the DSII and hopefully giving it a forcefull final final push that will make it harder to throw the asteroid to the side.

[Aaron]

A 1.6 km ISD I would think would be a lot easier to manipulate than some of the huge asteroids you find in the asteroid belt and the Kuiper belt, some of which are comparable in size to the DSII. As far as I know there's no evidence that the DSII's tractor beams could stop a ~800 km asteroid that's been thrown straight at it.

Actually an ISD probably has a mass similar to a large asteroid. The hypermatter for the reactor is described as super-dense and orders of magnitude heavier than the ISD itself. Not to mention that the armour of the ship is also a super dense material similar to Treks neutronium, which is described as massively heavy.

And if the tractors can capture an ISD they shouldn't have to much trouble changing the course of an asteroid. And even if they can't than the TIE's can blast it. Simple really.

[lPeregrine]

A few points here:

1) By edit to the initial post, the tractor beams don't exist. It doesn't matter how powerful they are, by the time the tractor beams come back, so do the superlaser and shields and it doesn't matter.

2) Risk to Earth is irrelevant. Every person on Earth is already dead. By act of Q/initial poster, the moment the Death Star's weapons come back, it WILL attack the Earth, and everyone there will die. Even if the attack on the Death Star kills everyone on Earth in the process, that's still no worse than failing to destroy it.

3) Cloaking treaties are irrelevant, if anyone in the Star Trek galaxy has any common sense. Earth is already doomed, and surely at least someone in power is going to think about the possiblity of that Death Star going after other targets too. Even if the Romulans don't give them away freely, the Federation isn't going to bother paying attention to a mere treaty. Yes, the Federation is full of hopeless idealists, but bothering with a treaty would be suicide.

4) I concede the question of the fighters, I thought I'd remembered seeing much lower numbers suggested for the Death Star's own fighter squadrons.

[Aaron]

A few points here:

1) By edit to the initial post, the tractor beams don't exist. It doesn't matter how powerful they are, by the time the tractor beams come back, so do the superlaser and shields and it doesn't matter.

So the OP keeps getting edited. Why?

[lPeregrine]

A few points here:

1) By edit to the initial post, the tractor beams don't exist. It doesn't matter how powerful they are, by the time the tractor beams come back, so do the superlaser and shields and it doesn't matter.

So the OP keeps getting edited. Why?

Because the person who wrote it said that he had intended for the Death Star to be completely disabled, and had just forgotten to mention tractor beams by name. He posted that a page or two back, when they were first mentioned.

[Firefox]

1) By edit to the initial post, the tractor beams don't exist.

Which post? Where did wautd change the scenario to include the tractor beam projectors' disabled condition?

2) Risk to Earth is irrelevant. Every person on Earth is already dead. By act of Q/initial poster, the moment the Death Star's weapons come back, it WILL attack the Earth, and everyone there will die. Even if the attack on the Death Star kills everyone on Earth in the process, that's still no worse than failing to destroy it.

It is if the attack fails to destroy the DS.

3) Cloaking treaties are irrelevant, if anyone in the Star Trek galaxy has any common sense.

Something we've rarely seen in Trek. I doubt they're going to use such unorthodox tactics.

4) I concede the question of the fighters, I thought I'd remembered seeing much lower numbers suggested for the Death Star's own fighter squadrons.

You saw minimalist numbers for the DSI, perhaps. That's a 160km station, compared to the 900km DSII.

[Lone_Prodigy]

2) Risk to Earth is irrelevant. Every person on Earth is already dead. By act of Q/initial poster, the moment the Death Star's weapons come back, it WILL attack the Earth, and everyone there will die. Even if the attack on the Death Star kills everyone on Earth in the process, that's still no worse than failing to destroy it.

Hello, anything in that skull of yours? They could have a month to evacuate, or minutes before the TIEs start coming in like gigaton-armed locusts, depending on their actions. Attacking it would only likely doom earth immediately unless the attack was successful.

[Aaron]

You saw minimalist numbers for the DSI, perhaps. That's a 160km station, compared to the 900km DSII.

No those numbers are low end numbers for the DSII. Though 7200 fighters is enough to easily destroy incoming asteroids, Federation fleets and destroy Earth.

[Aaron]

Dr. Saxton has an estimate of 10,000 fighters for the DSII.

When the Emperor arrived at Endor swarms of TIE Fighters flew in formation past his docking bay. The fighters were in flight groups of four. If they were evenly spaced around the entire circumference of the battle station then they must have numbered in the tens of thousands. This should be considered a minimum estimate for the total number of fighters carried by the battle station. Although there might have been some contribution from the fighter complements of the nearby star destroyers, these could not account for more than a small fraction of the parading vessels. There were obviously no more than a few dozen star destroyers, each of which could probably not carry more than a hundred fighters at the absolute maximum. Therefore we should take ten thousand as a tentative approximate scale for the total fighter complement of Death Star II.

If that is true than the Feds are even more fucked than before/

[Firefox]

To be honest, they got their stats from WEG. The site also says the DSII is 160km in diameter, and the number of TIE squadrons seems small for what's actually a 900km station.