Why does the dark side seem stronger?
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- Justforfun000
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Why does the dark side seem stronger?
This is my first post in this part of the forum.
I was watching the trailer for the Revenge of the Sith, and it looks fucking awesome. I can't wait to see it.
Yoda clearly states that the dark side is not stronger.
Why is it that Luke has absolutely no chance whatsoever against the Emporer when they battled? He didn't even get a good shot at him. The energy lancing he was shooting at him completely incapacitated him.
Is it simply that as a very young Jedi, he did not learn the more fancy tricks of the force and was therefore just woefully outmatched?
Even Vader killing the emporer confused me. It caused fatal damage to lift him up for a few seconds and toss him down the shaft?
hmmmm. What else....
What EXACTLY does the dark side use as it's main "weapon" that the Jedi's don't? On the trailer Palpatine mentions using it "unnaturally".
I was watching the trailer for the Revenge of the Sith, and it looks fucking awesome. I can't wait to see it.
Yoda clearly states that the dark side is not stronger.
Why is it that Luke has absolutely no chance whatsoever against the Emporer when they battled? He didn't even get a good shot at him. The energy lancing he was shooting at him completely incapacitated him.
Is it simply that as a very young Jedi, he did not learn the more fancy tricks of the force and was therefore just woefully outmatched?
Even Vader killing the emporer confused me. It caused fatal damage to lift him up for a few seconds and toss him down the shaft?
hmmmm. What else....
What EXACTLY does the dark side use as it's main "weapon" that the Jedi's don't? On the trailer Palpatine mentions using it "unnaturally".
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Re: Why does the dark side seem stronger?
Which battle are you talking about?Justforfun000 wrote: Why is it that Luke has absolutely no chance whatsoever against the Emporer when they battled? He didn't even get a good shot at him. The energy lancing he was shooting at him completely incapacitated him.
Again, what battle between Luke and the Emperor? All I can remember is Dark Empire...Is it simply that as a very young Jedi, he did not learn the more fancy tricks of the force and was therefore just woefully outmatched?
What is your question here?Even Vader killing the emporer confused me. It caused fatal damage to lift him up for a few seconds and toss him down the shaft?
He was talking about extending life to the point where you practically don't die -- which is what Palpatine did.What EXACTLY does the dark side use as it's main "weapon" that the Jedi's don't? On the trailer Palpatine mentions using it "unnaturally".
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Re: Why does the dark side seem stronger?
I'd chalk it up to inexperience, and the fact that no one told him that Sith lords can fire lightning out of their hands.Justforfun000 wrote:This is my first post in this part of the forum.
I was watching the trailer for the Revenge of the Sith, and it looks fucking awesome. I can't wait to see it.
Yoda clearly states that the dark side is not stronger.
Why is it that Luke has absolutely no chance whatsoever against the Emporer when they battled? He didn't even get a good shot at him. The energy lancing he was shooting at him completely incapacitated him.
Is it simply that as a very young Jedi, he did not learn the more fancy tricks of the force and was therefore just woefully outmatched?
The lightning fried Vader's life support systems.Even Vader killing the emporer confused me. It caused fatal damage to lift him up for a few seconds and toss him down the shaft?
Rage, and hate, these are the weapons of the Dark side.What EXACTLY does the dark side use as it's main "weapon" that the Jedi's don't? On the trailer Palpatine mentions using it "unnaturally".
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I think the dark side looks more powerfull because most powers that seem (to an outsider) powerfull (like Force lightning) draw power from the dark side of the force (as most light side powers are constuctive and suddle in nature), but in the end the only thing that matters is power/skill of the user (or Yoda put "much to lear you still have" after absorbing Dooku Force lightning). As for Luke it's lack of training (mostly), he did even know that Force lightning were possible until he hit by one.
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In Return of the Jedi. It's the only time he fought him isn't it?Which battle are you talking about?
Oh, I think I see the problem...There are books regarding this too aren't there? Sorry, I only know the movies.Again, what battle between Luke and the Emperor? All I can remember is Dark Empire...
I think it got answered below...What is your question here?
I didn't know this. Is this mentioned in the books? I don't recall it in the movies...He was talking about extending life to the point where you practically don't die -- which is what Palpatine did.
Lol. It must have been quite the bitch. "Fucking Yoda didn't warn me about THIS!!!!!. AGGHHHHHHHH"I'd chalk it up to inexperience, and the fact that no one told him that Sith lords can fire lightning out of their hands.
That was my thought, but I wasn't certain.The lightning fried Vader's life support systems.
Right, right....I recall that being a major focus...but how exactly does this make it "unnatural"? Rage and hate are still natural human emotions.Rage, and hate, these are the weapons of the Dark side.
So the question that comes to me is, how powerful are the sith compared to Jedi? Do you have to become an uber Jedi like Yoda in order to even hope to be strong enough to tackle one?As Yoda said in the OT the Darkside is the quick and easy path. After only a short time Dark Jedi can do much more than their Jedi counterparts however this power is not without price.
I notice it's telling that our lord Darth Wong has the highest status reserved for "sith lord" and NOT Jedi knight...
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Already taken care of by Fox, but yeah, they weren't fighting really.Justforfun000 wrote: In Return of the Jedi. It's the only time he fought him isn't it?
Yeah, Dark Empire has a fight between Palpy and Luke.Oh, I think I see the problem...There are books regarding this too aren't there? Sorry, I only know the movies.
Yeppers, it's mentioned in Dark Empire I and II (comic books).I didn't know this. Is this mentioned in the books? I don't recall it in the movies...
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Keep in mind that there being only two, the Sith are naturally very selective in their recruiting. While the Jedi might recruit people of various levels, I doubt a Sith Lord is going to waste an apprenticeship on anyone not in that elite top 1%.
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So then the question is, why does the emporer insist that the dark side is so much stronger. Is he just deluding himself?
He made references many times to the dark side being far more powerful.
"Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side", etc.
I would hope in the last movie there is some effort in proving HOW the light side is superior. Subtle or not.
He made references many times to the dark side being far more powerful.
"Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side", etc.
I would hope in the last movie there is some effort in proving HOW the light side is superior. Subtle or not.
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Defenseless? Luke just beat Vader is a lightsabre battle...defenseless is hardly the term I'd apply to that level of power...Firefox wrote:Nitpick: they weren't fighting. Palpatine was lancing a defenseless Luke with Force lightning. Hardly a battle.In Return of the Jedi. It's the only time he fought him isn't it?
Re: Why does the dark side seem stronger?
Where was this stated or confirmed? SOTE quite clearly states Vader needs the DS to even breath comfortably, let alone still live. Killing the Emperor means Vader rejects the DS, Anakin returns... and lo, dies soon after, because the Force that had been sustaining him is now no longer available.KhyronTheBackstabber wrote:The lightning fried Vader's life support systems.Justforfun000 wrote:Even Vader killing the emporer confused me. It caused fatal damage to lift him up for a few seconds and toss him down the shaft?
And really... Luke survives the Emperor's lightning and Vader doesn't, when Vader's the one wearing armour? It might not offer that much more protection than a black tunic, but how long was Luke being zapped compared to Vader? And both know how to deflect energy, the only difference between the two is that Luke learnt while he was being electrocuted, and couldn't deflect all of the energy from the Emperor's lightning, while Vader was quick enough to deflect blaster shots from a quickdraw like Han Solo.
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He was defenceless at the moment Palpatine decided to kill him. Luke had pitched away his sabre (rather foolishly, in hindsight), and had no means with which to defend himself.Robert Walper wrote:Defenseless? Luke just beat Vader is a lightsabre battle...defenseless is hardly the term I'd apply to that level of power...Firefox wrote:Nitpick: they weren't fighting. Palpatine was lancing a defenseless Luke with Force lightning. Hardly a battle.In Return of the Jedi. It's the only time he fought him isn't it?
Frankly, the only possible reasons I ever saw for the likes of Yoda and Kenobi to send Luke after the Emperor were reliance on a prophecy or simple desperation. If they knew that Luke was merely the agent of a prophecy, then sending him after the unstoppable Emperor was completely without risk. If he was their last hope, heck, they might as well make the attempt. But Luke (as of ROTJ) v. Palpatine in a straight-up fight? Come on, let's be serious. Luke would have had his ass handed to him by Darth Maul, never mind Darth Sidious. He just didn't have the skills yet.
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Really? I didn't know that. This would make even more sense to me...Where was this stated or confirmed? SOTE quite clearly states Vader needs the DS to even breath comfortably, let alone still live. Killing the Emperor means Vader rejects the DS, Anakin returns... and lo, dies soon after, because the Force that had been sustaining him is now no longer available.
True. It could be argued that he was electrically powered and that magnitude of the Emporers electricity going through him was just too devastating to his "pacemaker".And really... Luke survives the Emperor's lightning and Vader doesn't, when Vader's the one wearing armour?
You have to realize that most Christian "moral values" behaviour is not really about "protecting" anyone; it's about their desire to send a continual stream of messages of condemnation towards people whose existence offends them. - Darth Wong alias Mike Wong
"There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. However, there is something very wrong with not choosing to exchange ignorance for knowledge when the opportunity presents itself."
"There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. However, there is something very wrong with not choosing to exchange ignorance for knowledge when the opportunity presents itself."
Except... I dunno... using the Force to deflect the Emperor's attack, which is what he was doing. He just underestimated the Emperor's abilities, which Yoda specifically warned him about.SCRawl wrote:He was defenceless at the moment Palpatine decided to kill him. Luke had pitched away his sabre (rather foolishly, in hindsight), and had no means with which to defend himself.
Besides, Luke's whole plan was to guilt trip daddy to come to his aid. Which was successful. If Luke wanted to merely destroy the emperor he would have flown with Lando and Wedge.
Darth Maul? Are you joking? A mere padawan defeated Maul, just by being cunning.Luke would have had his ass handed to him by Darth Maul, never mind Darth Sidious. He just didn't have the skills yet.
You still have to handwave away Luke's fantastic non-conductive skin though. Literally he was being zapped for a full minute compared to Vader's couple seconds.Justforfun000 wrote:True. It could be argued that he was electrically powered and that magnitude of the Emporers electricity going through him was just too devastating to his "pacemaker".And really... Luke survives the Emperor's lightning and Vader doesn't, when Vader's the one wearing armour?
Besides, this is SW, a tech level where a glancing hit by a blaster can still leave your cybernetic hand operating (ROTJ), so I don't find it implausible to suggest Vader's armour was well insulated, especially from what could be considered a common Sith attack.
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The Emperor was holding back. That's the only good explanation. Dooku zapped Anakin for a much briefer interval and put him down for several minutes. The Emperor was using a non-lethal setting to torture Luke to death as slowly as possible. Then, when Vader picked him up, he must have upped the juice to save his own life. Not that it worked.Stofsk wrote: You still have to handwave away Luke's fantastic non-conductive skin though. Literally he was being zapped for a full minute compared to Vader's couple seconds.
Besides, this is SW, a tech level where a glancing hit by a blaster can still leave your cybernetic hand operating (ROTJ), so I don't find it implausible to suggest Vader's armour was well insulated, especially from what could be considered a common Sith attack.
So yeah, "power settings" again.
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Actually, according to the ROTJ novelisation, Luke managed to use the Force to block Palpatine's Force Lightning, at least for a couple of blasts. Some of it still got through, but he was able to partially block it until he took too many hits from it. After that, the novelisation states that he could no longer the Force to deflect it. Luke just wasn't strong enough at that point to fight the Emperor.Defenseless? Luke just beat Vader is a lightsabre battle...defenseless is hardly the term I'd apply to that level of power...
He was defenceless at the moment Palpatine decided to kill him. Luke had pitched away his sabre (rather foolishly, in hindsight), and had no means with which to defend himself.
Frankly, the only possible reasons I ever saw for the likes of Yoda and Kenobi to send Luke after the Emperor were reliance on a prophecy or simple desperation. If they knew that Luke was merely the agent of a prophecy, then sending him after the unstoppable Emperor was completely without risk. If he was their last hope, heck, they might as well make the attempt. But Luke (as of ROTJ) v. Palpatine in a straight-up fight? Come on, let's be serious. Luke would have had his ass handed to him by Darth Maul, never mind Darth Sidious. He just didn't have the skills yet.
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60 secs = "several minutes"?Eframepilot wrote:The Emperor was holding back. That's the only good explanation. Dooku zapped Anakin for a much briefer interval and put him down for several minutes.Stofsk wrote:You still have to handwave away Luke's fantastic non-conductive skin though. Literally he was being zapped for a full minute compared to Vader's couple seconds.
Besides, this is SW, a tech level where a glancing hit by a blaster can still leave your cybernetic hand operating (ROTJ), so I don't find it implausible to suggest Vader's armour was well insulated, especially from what could be considered a common Sith attack.
Yes, pop in AOTC in your DVD player. It really is that long. Anakin also fought Dooku comfortably for "several minutes" afterwards too.
But he was just a padawan at the time, and Luke was a Jedi Knight during that scene in the Emperor's throne room.
Yes... and?The Emperor was using a non-lethal setting to torture Luke to death as slowly as possible.
Proof? He "must have"? Is it in the ROTJ novelisation somewhere?Then, when Vader picked him up, he must have upped the juice to save his own life. Not that it worked.
So yeah, "power settings" again.
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Long story short?
The bad guys always seem more powerful so it means more to the movie when Good eventually defeates them
The bad guys always seem more powerful so it means more to the movie when Good eventually defeates them
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Anakin was a much more skilled Padawan than Luke was a "Jedi Knight" by that time. You can see it in the way they fought. Leaving aside issues in technique, Anakin did far more impressive things far more often than Luke did.Yes, pop in AOTC in your DVD player. It really is that long. Anakin also fought Dooku comfortably for "several minutes" afterwards too.
But he was just a padawan at the time, and Luke was a Jedi Knight during that scene in the Emperor's throne room.
The ROTJ novelization says that Luke repelled the Emperor's force lightning for a moment or so and then failed. We don't see this in the movie however, but it is possible he was somehow protecting himself from the effects.Proof? He "must have"? Is it in the ROTJ novelisation somewhere?
As far as Darth Vader (post-suit) goes, however, he is much more vulnerable to force lightning because his limbs are cybernetic, and all the other parts that keep him alive. This is also the reason why he can never use force lightning. See the ROTS:VD. (This is not a spoiler as far as I'm concerned, its not like its in the movie or anything- but its good to be safe).
However, as far as power settings goes- Dooku's force lightning against Yoda was reflected against a stone wall and created an explosion. So I think its reasonable to assume the Emperor may have been using less than that on Luke, and there's no doubt that Sidious was more powerful than Tyranus.
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Anakin has been in Jedi training for over 6 years. Luke only received a one year crash course, disrupted by "real life".Stofsk wrote: But he was just a padawan at the time, and Luke was a Jedi Knight during that scene in the Emperor's throne room.
Look at the amount of damage Palpy did to Vader. His entire skeleton was glowing. Compare this to Luke and Anakin in AOTC. Luke skywalker just writhed on the ground, no visible damage, no hair on fire etc etc etc. There was smoke emerging from Anakin jerkin after Dooku blasted him.Proof? He "must have"? Is it in the ROTJ novelisation somewhere?
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No, he didn't. At best they were both equal in terms of abilities shown.Vympel wrote:Anakin was a much more skilled Padawan than Luke was a "Jedi Knight" by that time. You can see it in the way they fought. Leaving aside issues in technique, Anakin did far more impressive things far more often than Luke did.
Both Anakin and Luke could do force jumps and acrobatic flips or somersaults. Anakin killed off an entire tribe of ruthless desert warriors; Luke killed off an entire group of ruthless criminals. Anakin tamed a horn beast thing during the arena; Luke killed a RANCOR. Anakin lost his saber not once but twice; Luke lost his saber precisely once, when the hand that was holding it was chopped off. Sorry, but clumsily dropping your saber or having it mashed while on a conveyor belt is just stupid.
However, Luke lasted much longer in his duels with Vader than Anakin did against Tyranus in AOTC; the first time he was holding his own against Vader, the second time he was the one holding back. When Luke finally cut loose Vader was made his bitch. When Anakin got his arm chopped off he couldn't even get up and do anything else, hell neither did Obi-wan, who's injuries were light. What did Luke do when his hand got chopped off? Fell dozens if not hundreds of meters, landed and lived, then hung on to that thing under Bespin for several minutes. The cornfed farmboy has more endurance than Anakin.
Luke's far more impressive untrained than Mr "No, I'm taking him NOW!" ever was. At least at that relative skill level.
We see FL rebounding off Luke in the film. He's still on the floor in a heap though, but there's nothing in the film contradicting the novelisation (unless the novelisation states Luke was standing up at the time he was deflecting the energy, then it would be wrong).Vympel wrote:The ROTJ novelization says that Luke repelled the Emperor's force lightning for a moment or so and then failed. We don't see this in the movie however, but it is possible he was somehow protecting himself from the effects.
Like I said before: cybernetic prosthetics can take a blaster shot and still operate. And Vader copped a few seconds exposure to FL at most, while Luke was being zapped for much longer than that. And it was an assumption that Palpatine automatically 'upped the power' when Vader grabbed him from behind. Palpy was bushwhacked and taken completely by surprise, and a lot of his FL went wild and was undirected anyway.As far as Darth Vader (post-suit) goes, however, he is much more vulnerable to force lightning because his limbs are cybernetic, and all the other parts that keep him alive. This is also the reason why he can never use force lightning. See the ROTS:VD. (This is not a spoiler as far as I'm concerned, its not like its in the movie or anything- but its good to be safe).
And I would like to pick up the ROTS VD to confirm, but then it's not available yet, now is it? tsk tsk. *wags finger*
Perhaps he was doing a low powered thing to torture Luke, but that doesn't mean Vader caught more than Luke did. Palpatine was taken by surprise, then he got thrown over the railing.However, as far as power settings goes- Dooku's force lightning against Yoda was reflected against a stone wall and created an explosion. So I think its reasonable to assume the Emperor may have been using less than that on Luke, and there's no doubt that Sidious was more powerful than Tyranus.
And frankly, why would Vader walk around in a suit that's vulnerable to FL when he knows that he's gonna have to betray the old fool eventually anyway?
Then Luke is a lot more powerful than Anakin. If he had been trained by the Jedi earlier then holy shit...PainRack wrote:Anakin has been in Jedi training for over 6 years. Luke only received a one year crash course, disrupted by "real life".Stofsk wrote:But he was just a padawan at the time, and Luke was a Jedi Knight during that scene in the Emperor's throne room.
Look at the amount of damage Palpy did to Vader. His entire skeleton was glowing. Compare this to Luke and Anakin in AOTC. Luke skywalker just writhed on the ground, no visible damage, no hair on fire etc etc etc. There was smoke emerging from Anakin jerkin after Dooku blasted him.[/quote]Proof? He "must have"? Is it in the ROTJ novelisation somewhere?
Luke was smoking too. His hair wasn't on fire and he wasn't burnt too, but he was also deflecting some of the Emperor's attack.