Why does the dark side seem stronger?

[Vympel]

No, he didn't. At best they were both equal in terms of abilities shown.

Both Anakin and Luke could do force jumps and acrobatic flips or somersaults.

Anakin's were better. In paticular, he did such feats while dodging un-blockable-by-lightsabre weapons fire from Geonosians, and numerous pieces of heavy machinery, while simultaneously hurling objects at his enemies to dispatch them.

Anakin killed off an entire tribe of ruthless desert warriors; Luke killed off an entire group of ruthless criminals.

Anakin, in doing so, stopped a spear thurst at him with a force wall, force pushed the guy who thrust it at him a full 30m, and picked up and hurled a boulder that crushed and killed the occupants of an entire Tusken hut.

Anakin tamed a horn beast thing during the arena; Luke killed a RANCOR.

MacGuyver could've killed that Rancor, it wasn't through any use of the force that he did so, simply a good throw.

Anakin lost his saber not once but twice; Luke lost his saber precisely once, when the hand that was holding it was chopped off. Sorry, but clumsily dropping your saber or having it mashed while on a conveyor belt is just stupid.

I hardly think being shot at while on a speeder 500 storeies high on Coruscant fighting with a Bounty Hunter while your'e hanging on the outside qualifies as a "clumsy" drop. Also, the lightsabre on the conveyor belt was such an overload on the senses that I'm surprised he didn't get taken out sooner. As for being stupid, I'd remind you that Luke couldn't help being shot by Jabba's goons in the hand with a blaster, which has never and will never (I'm pretty sure) happened to Anakin. If Luke's hand hadn't been robotic, he would've lost his sabre for sure (though force puleld it back).

There's also the fact that Anakin jumped out of a flying speeder and landed on Zam Wessel's without injury, which Luke never emulated. Luke has also never used a force push to propel himself upward while falling down an elevator shaft, nor did he reach with the force into that elevator's braking mechanisms to make the elevator stop faster. (AOTC novelization). Luke has at best levitated C-3PO by the time of ROTJ.

However, Luke lasted much longer in his duels with Vader than Anakin did against Tyranus in AOTC; the first time he was holding his own against Vader

Vader was holding back in that duel. You missed for example that Vader was using one hand right up until he thrust Luke into the carbonite chamber, and only reverted to two hands when he had to get serious to actually injure Luke once his first plan failed. Vader could've killed him at any time if he really wished it. See his attack with the Bespin equipment, for example. He had utter contempt for Luke.

As for Anakin against Tyranus, he was still a Padawan, and even then Dooku found it much more difficult to fight against him than against Obi-Wan. We have no evidence for example that Luke used a force wall as Anakin did to block Dooku's movements during the duel (AOTC novelization).

the second time he was the one holding back. When Luke finally cut loose Vader was made his bitch.

Vader was also holding back. See Luke's comments to him before Vader hurled his sabre at him.

When Anakin got his arm chopped off he couldn't even get up and do anything else

He lost his entire arm at the elbow, that's a pretty massive injury, and got force pushed away to boot.

hell neither did Obi-wan, who's injuries were light.

Obi-Wan was incapacitated by those wounds, Dooku rendered him incapable of moving his arm and leg in two swift strokes. He was still fully in control of his faculties.

What did Luke do when his hand got chopped off? Fell dozens if not hundreds of meters, landed and lived, then hung on to that thing under Bespin for several minutes. The cornfed farmboy has more endurance than Anakin.

Impressive endurance, yes, but Anakin is still the superior.

Luke's far more impressive untrained than Mr "No, I'm taking him NOW!" ever was. At least at that relative skill level.

See above.

We see FL rebounding off Luke in the film. He's still on the floor in a heap though, but there's nothing in the film contradicting the novelisation (unless the novelisation states Luke was standing up at the time he was deflecting the energy, then it would be wrong).

It's not in the way the novel describes. I'm not saying its "contradicted" per se, as I still allow for the possibility that Luke was protecting himself somehow.

Like I said before: cybernetic prosthetics can take a blaster shot and still operate. And Vader copped a few seconds exposure to FL at most, while Luke was being zapped for much longer than that. And it was an assumption that Palpatine automatically 'upped the power' when Vader grabbed him from behind. Palpy was bushwhacked and taken completely by surprise, and a lot of his FL went wild and was undirected anyway.

That [take a blaster shot] doesn't mean that force generated electrical current won't do a number on him. That suit keeps him alive, it completely ruined his chances of survival. Vader is practically a lightning rod.

And I would like to pick up the ROTS VD to confirm, but then it's not available yet, now is it? tsk tsk. *wags finger*

Spoiler thread ............

Its in the ROTS VD, I have the relevant scan.

Perhaps he was doing a low powered thing to torture Luke, but that doesn't mean Vader caught more than Luke did. Palpatine was taken by surprise, then he got thrown over the railing.

Palpatine's lightning actually arced out from his hands and then directed itself downward into Vader's body- if Palpatine was able to direct the lightning in that matter its not unlikely that he unleashed his full power.

And frankly, why would Vader walk around in a suit that's vulnerable to FL when he knows that he's gonna have to betray the old fool eventually anyway?

He doesn't really know. He's awfully conflicted about it, as is evidenced when Luke talks to him on Endor before going to see the Emperor. However, its not like Vader has a choice- its not just the suit, its see tiny spoiler.

[Stofsk]

Ok I concede. Anakin was superior thanks to his training. Oddly, I think Luke is cooler though. Oh well.

Perhaps a compromise can be reached: Vader was being sustained by the dark side of the Force, which of course left him when he turned back into Anakin; but Palpy's lightning may have been the deciding factor as to whether Anakin lived or died then and there.

[Vympel]

Ok I concede. Anakin was superior thanks to his training. Oddly, I think Luke is cooler though. Oh well.

I prefer Anakin, since his two lightsabres weren't a cheap copy of Obi-Wan's, and he has a far cooler haircut.

He also becomes a Dark Lord of the Sith, which does it for me, since I always prefer the bad guys as being more interesting- unless you're an anti-hero, which Luke wasn't. And Anakin's taller. And has cooler clothes.

Perhaps a compromise can be reached: Vader was being sustained by the dark side of the Force, which of course left him when he turned back into Anakin; but Palpy's lightning may have been the deciding factor as to whether Anakin lived or died then and there.

It's possible.

[nightmare]

Remeber that Palpatine was just playing with Luke. He zapped Luke quite a bit before even saying "And now, young Skywalker - you will die" (quote just off the top of my head), and he was still going at it slowly even at the final zap. Vader was most likely on the receiving end of a much more powerful blast.

[Vympel]

Actually the impression I got was that after he said "you will die" he expected Luke to kick the bucket. But he was still obviously alive, so then he got the shits.

[Stofsk]

Actually the impression I got was that after he said "you will die" he expected Luke to kick the bucket. But he was still obviously alive, so then he got the shits.

There was a frustrated "Why won't he DIE?!?" expression on Palpatine's face.

[Justforfun000]

Ok I concede. Anakin was superior thanks to his training. Oddly, I think Luke is cooler though. Oh well.

Of course the most reasonable thing to assume is simply that special effects have become far far better then 30 years ago. They are simply taking advantage of that for the newer series. If they had the technology back then, I'm sure they would have made Luke look more impressive.

[Stofsk]

Non-SoD.

[Justforfun000]

Non-SoD. Wink

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee....What does SoD stand for?

[Stofsk]

Suspension of Disbelief. In debate, it means you confine yourself strictly to in-universe evidence. The Executor is 17 KM long because the onscreen evidence shows us that it is, rather than some sfx guy telling us that was the original scale he did the models in.

Same goes here: obviously they didn't have the sort of resources then that are available nowadays, but it doesn't work from an in-universe POV. Thus, it violates SoD, because your disbelief has entered the equation - it's no longer being suspended by the fiction.

[Robert Walper]

In regards to the OP question, I thought Yoda answered it pretty clearly in ESB:

Luke: "Is the Dark Side stronger?"

Yoda. "No! No...quicker, easier, more seductive."

It was my impression that if you were to have two Jedi of equal skill and training, the one that employs the Dark Side will always win because the Dark Side is easier to channel and use, therefore at the very least the Dark user would outlast/outpower the other.

[McC]

In regards to the OP question, I thought Yoda answered it pretty clearly in ESB:

Luke: "Is the Dark Side stronger?"

Yoda. "No! No...quicker, easier, more seductive."

It was my impression that if you were to have two Jedi of equal skill and training, the one that employs the Dark Side will always win because the Dark Side is easier to channel and use, therefore at the very least the Dark user would outlast/outpower the other.

Everyone assumes because of what Yoda says, the dark and light sides are of equal 'power,' and this notion has propogated itself throughout the EU.

I call bullshit. Look at how Yoda answers the question? I present the below as a novelized version of what we see in the movie.

Luke considered his next question of the diminuitive Jedi master. "Is the dark side stronger?" he asked.

Yoda's response was almost instantaneous. "No!" Luke was somewhat surprised by the forcefulness of the reply. "No," Yoda said again, this time more calmly. "Quicker, easier, more-seductive."

It sounds to me like Yoda is telling Luke what he wants Luke to believe. If Luke ends up thinking the dark side is stronger, he'll go in against Vader thinking the only way he can win is by calling on the dark side, since his opponent easily outclasses him because of the powers he can call on. Yoda has a vested interest in what path Luke takes, and as such his statements cannot be taken to be absolute truths.

I think the dark side is stronger, but it comes with a price tag attached in that while you might become master of all you survey, you also become little more than a thrall to the dark side in the process.

[Justforfun000]

Suspension of Disbelief. In debate, it means you confine yourself strictly to in-universe evidence.

Ah...Gotcha. Of course that would have to be a requirement. Sorry.

[Isolder74]

I think the dark side appears stronger because its powers are simply more showy. The Dark Sde gives its user an apparent jump in power early but it has a price. The Dark Side slowly consumes your free will.


I see Yoda's Statment of quicke easier, more seductive as very telling. Tyranus could not use his Dark Side tricks on either Yoda or Obi Wan. This hints that if the Light Side user has the proper training, he can use a Dark Sider's power against him.

[Justforfun000]

I think the dark side is stronger, but it comes with a price tag attached in that while you might become master of all you survey, you also become little more than a thrall to the dark side in the process.

OR maybe it could be argued that there is no "true" dark side, that it's all human morality being used as a judgement of an impartial force. If it was technical instead of mystical, the emporer could be going around shooting lances of electricity out of a generator. This wouldn't really make the POWER evil, just the usage of it.

Or maybe human beings are only able to access degrees of power in the force, (actually I should say sentient beings. I'm forgetting the universe I'm talking about), and the dark side is a more DRAMATIC force of destruction. Naturally when "fighting", it's reasonable to think that the dark side would have an edge.

Just a couple of thoughts to chew on..

[McC]

OR maybe it could be argued that there is no "true" dark side, that it's all human morality being used as a judgement of an impartial force. If it was technical instead of mystical, the emporer could be going around shooting lances of electricity out of a generator. This wouldn't really make the POWER evil, just the usage of it.

I didn't actually read the book myself, but I think I recall hearing that one of the NJO books has a character say exactly this about the Force.

[PainRack]

Vegere statement can't be used to say "There is no Dark Side" at all, because she still believes in evil and that the Force can influence ppl and there is a cosmic balance, of which Jacen will play a part.

This is part of some ruminations I been doing for a fanfic, and here's my thoughts. Totally speculation, no evidence in canon but just some thoughts.

The Dark side can be viewed as destruction vs Light/Creation or the absence of Light/Creation. Not trying to sound too new age or the like, but the belief that Creation vs Destruction is a belief that reasonates throughout human history and evil has two distinct niches. In judaism influenced philosophy, evil is distinct and epitomised in a devil named Satan. However, the onslaught of feel good christianity, as well as several other religions/philosophy also teaches that evil is a condition where good doesn't exist.

When one injects Hindu philosophy in, it gets even more complex. Both Creation and Destruction are neccesary, vital forces in our universe. Too much creation ultimately leads to its opposite, destruction whereas the presence of destruction summons forth the forces of Creation. Just as every demon has its weakness, every hero has its Achilles Heel. Taoism, from which every "jediism" seems to like to refer is even more explicit. It defines a concept by its opposite. Something is, because it has nothing to compare to, and good is good because there exists evil to compare it to. Its ultimate conclusion, to treat good with good and evil with goodness is a moralistic view, but Tao De Jing defines itself by opposites. Strenght through weakness, etc etc etc.

Extrapolated to SW, it can be speculated that the two "Force" philosophies, the Living Force and the Unifying Force are the play-out of this discussion. While the Living Force argues for the concepts of Creation and Destruction being co-existing forces, neccesary for life and in balance, Unifying Force adepts argue that Dark is merely the lack of Light, but follow up with the "opposites" philosophy where good can only be known when compared against evil and something is of value because of nothing, ergo, Dark is important.

[McC]

Pretty neat ideas there, PainRack. For what it's worth, I think it's an admirable take on the whole thing. Try to get Lucasfilm to license your story so it can be made canon

[Crossroads Inc.]

Ok I concede. Anakin was superior thanks to his training. Oddly, I think Luke is cooler though. Oh well.

Well thats easy, Luke IS Way cooler then Ani, thats because he was destined to rise above the Darkside and save the Galaxy, and Ani was doomed to fall before the darkside and destroy the Galaxy.

It all works out..

[Meest]

Spoiler Warning...

As far as we know so far, Yoda does not lose to Sidious due to him being more powerfull, it's because Sidious calls in the troops. Stalemate between the two highest powers. I wonder how the Jedi would have been without their indoctrine getting in the way. And how Yoda would be after his "new" training from Qui-Gon.

Has it been confirmed now on Sidious' age? Compare that to Yoda's 800-900 years and it looks like Sidious didn't need as long to be comparable. Light side users became "immortal" while a darksider needed technology to accomplish a comparable feat (minus that sith lord from old republic era, but still wasn't the same as Yoda and company).

[Ted C]

A few of my observations about the light and dark side.

The dark side gives away power pretty freely to anyone who is "in tune" with it. If you use fear and anger to draw upon the force, it comes pretty easily. At the same time, though, the dark side is treacherous. Yes, you get visions of the future, but you never know what it's leaving out (as the Emperor failed to foresee assorted developments that lead to his death). You have a false sense of security with the dark side because it gives power so easily, but you never know when it will betray you.

The powers of the dark side are typically destructive, which also makes it seem more powerful. As the old adage goes, it's easier to destroy than it is to create.

The light side, by contrast, give away power minimally, requiring great dedication and study to reveal its secrets. It doesn't give away as much, but it's reliable. A light-side user won't stand around gloating and suddenly get blind-sided like Darth Maul or the Emperor.

The amount of power available is the same either way, but the amount of study and training needed to obtain it is drastically different.

[Cykeisme]

Perhaps its simply easier to advance in the Dark Side ("letting go" and "giving in" to anger), whereas the Light Side takes years of discipline to achieve the same thing. The Dark Side has obvious caveats, of course.
I guess a decent analogy would be comparing steroids to exercise.

Hence to a novice (especially an ambitious one), the Dark Side may appear to offer far more power, whereas with study and knowledge, it becomes apparent that being a disciple of the Light Side would lead to a preferrable outcome.


I'm not a proponent of the EU idea that the Force is blind to Light and Dark, and any manifested power can be wielded by any user. I think it takes rage and hate to generate streams of lightning, and it takes kindness and calmness to heal with the Force.. so in effect the availability of such abilities depend on the alignment of the user.

[Isolder74]

-perhaps it is like making ceramics. You can cure a piece faster with a higher temperature but it comes out weaker then if you use a lower temperature and leave it in the kilm longer and you get in the end a better peice of pottery.

[Gunhead]

Do not the general wankiness that goes on in the EU, where sith usually are doing the wanky stuff.
Then the good guys win by some plot twist. Now it could be said this proves the light side is stronger, but it's not as definite compared to some uber jedi appearing and kicking the siths ass. Fact is that in the EU the jedi don't pull nearly as much uber stuff, and certainly don't cause as much collateral damage as the sith do.

-Gunhead

[consequences]

If we go with the possibility suggested in Traitor, the reason that the Dark side Jedi seem more powerful is that they are more in tune with themselves. By not restraining their emotions, and having actively work to keep natural, useful compnents of themselves like fear and anger in check, they are able to exert their full potential with much less time, training, and effort. Whenever a supposedly lightside Jedi says fuck it, and lets their feelings guide them, they tend to kick more ass.

"This above all else, to thine own self be true." "Know your enemy, and know yourself" yadda yadda yadda. Most light siders are way to busy denying that certain things are normal to have any true awareness of who they really are.