Wager 400 hundred Quatloo's on the new comer....

[Crossroads Inc.]

What it eally comes down to is how Realistic we are in examining this. If you go JUST by physical characteristics, being in shape, and over all fighting experience… Solo will most likely win.

If however, were going on plot devices, contrived excuses, and character shields… Kirk will no doubt triumph. I mean, he has a ripped shirt people!

[brianeyci]

I don't really know much about Han's fighting style, so it's hard to comment on how he'd match up to Kirk when it comes to stance and style.

Well its over then. It's like Empire vs Voth, or any other of the one-shot wonder races in Trek. If the ability is undefined, by default the one who has a defined ability wins. We have no visual evidence of how Han fights (the same as how we have no visual evidence of Tracey killing thousands of Yangs, so the conclusion is probably some sort of chokepoint with Tracey moving his beam side-to-side like an HMG). No visuals, no argument.

The only evidence brought up in Han's favour is a "free-for-all" of a teenage Han -- from what you said it doesn't sound like Han beat all three at once (that would be a feat). I can easily envision Han's future self loathing hand-to-hand. "Hokey religions are no match for my blaster" is Han's attitude.

I don't know why you think Han would be better in shape physically than Kirk. I remember a comment about "so your military has physical training as well" in TOS from an alien complimenting Kirk. Han is a freaking playboy who is a good shot. I just do not see Han straining himself training physically when he relies on his blaster all the time. Saying William Shatner was a fatass in TOS (IIRC they had to band some cloth around his stomach so he wouldn't look so fat) and therefore Kirk has to be doesn't work.

Brian

[Darth Servo]

Don't you watch Star Trek?

yes. Enough to know most of your examples were bullshit.

Kirk sneaks up to people and does this all the time. The dialogue goes something like this,

<Kirk knocks someone out from behind>
Spock : Doesn't that hurt?
Kirk : Yes.

Oh wow. He can sneak up on someone. This is an open brawl and its already been established that Solo will more than likely get the first punch.

So how come Kirk wasn't knocking out people with one punch in the real "Gamesters of Triskelion"?

Also you're forgetting Kirk can knock someone unconcious with a chokehold in a few seconds. If it turns into a grapple, Kirk wins.

Big deal. Anybody can do that.

The whole point about negotiation is the only way "fighting dirty" would matter is if Han offerred a truce. It is a ring, with nothing around (if I intepret the op correctly). It's not like Kirk has not kicked someone in the balls before. The only thing I don't remember Kirk doing is poking someone in the eye.

Doesn't matter. Han shoots first. There is nothing more dirty than that.

[brianeyci]

Woot "Han shoots first"... so what, Kirk shoots first as well, see ST:III. What does that have to do with a fistfight? Kirk has kicked in the balls at least two occasions in the TOS movies, ST:III and ST:VI. Probably some more in TOS. Fighting dirty won't help. Kirk will fight as dirty as he needs to to win (except maybe poke someone's eye which I haven't seen).

The point of bringing up the "hit from one blow to the back of the head" was not to say that Kirk could do this, but to suggest some sort of strength. Since Vicious corrected me, I concede this point. What it does suggest is that Kirk has some training in where to hit.

Why don't you bring some points about Han's fighting ability? Why are you nitpicking my examples of Kirk fighting, when Han's examples are few and far between? Vicious brought up one EU example of a teenage Han. If you can't do anything other than allude to some general idea of Han "brawling" in a bar, then Han loses.

Brian

[Darth Servo]

He tossed a few stormtroopers around on Endor. There, happy?

[brianeyci]

Doesn't matter. Han shoots first. There is nothing more dirty than that.

I thought Greedo shoots first in the lastest incarnation of SW Trilogy.

Brian

[brianeyci]

He tossed a few stormtroopers around on Endor. There, happy?

That says nothing. What we need to see is Han fighting someone his weight or similar, and seeing if Han can win. Anyone can throw anybody around as long as they have enough upper body strength. Vicious himself has said he cannot judge Han solely from the original trilogy, so I defer to him since he is a martial artist.

Brian

[Crossroads Inc.]

I thought Greedo shoots first in the lastest incarnation of SW Trilogy.

Brian

Oh, for crying in the mud! you did NOTY just say that? Everyone, EVERYONE knows that SOLO shot first!

[brianeyci]

I thought Greedo shoots first in the lastest incarnation of SW Trilogy.

Brian

Oh, for crying in the mud! you did NOTY just say that? Everyone, EVERYONE knows that SOLO shot first!

Well whatever way it is, Kirk shoots first against a Klingon in ST:III. I don't see how shooting first is any point at all in a fistfight. As soon as Kirk and his officers were transported to the planet in TOS Gamsters of Triskellion, he explicitly orders "hand to hand" after phasers fail.

Brian

[Vicious]

The only evidence brought up in Han's favour is a "free-for-all" of a teenage Han -- from what you said it doesn't sound like Han beat all three at once (that would be a feat).

As I recall in the book, all three went for Han first, since he was the smallest. If I can find my copy, I'll try to direct quote it, but I distinctly remember them going for Han at the start.

I don't know why you think Han would be better in shape physically than Kirk.

I would expect Han to be at least as fit as Kirk, and potentially a bit more. He doesn't work out per se, but his lifestyle is not one to tolerate flab.

Well its over then. It's like Empire vs Voth, or any other of the one-shot wonder races in Trek. If the ability is undefined, by default the one who has a defined ability wins. We have no visual evidence of how Han fights (the same as how we have no visual evidence of Tracey killing thousands of Yangs, so the conclusion is probably some sort of chokepoint with Tracey moving his beam side-to-side like an HMG). No visuals, no argument.

False Dilemma. You're using Treks "Visuals or Nothing" policy on Star Wars, when the Star Wars books are declared canon so long as they don't conflict with the films. Since we have no footage of Han getting his ass kicked consitently in unarmed combat in the films, and the books point towards him having quite a bit of experience and skill at it, the books win.

I don't know why you think Han would be better in shape physically than Kirk. I remember a comment about "so your military has physical training as well" in TOS from an alien complimenting Kirk. Han is a freaking playboy who is a good shot. I just do not see Han straining himself training physically when he relies on his blaster all the time. Saying William Shatner was a fatass in TOS (IIRC they had to band some cloth around his stomach so he wouldn't look so fat) and therefore Kirk has to be doesn't work.

Woah woah woah! Slow the hell down. When did I ever say anything about Shatner being fat? As to the "freaking playboy" remark, where's the proof? He uses his blaster most of the time because it's the most effective tool for the job. He can fight unarmed, but he chooses not to whenever possible, and smartly so. In the movies, he never faces an opponent who would be worth it. Vader would cut him to pieces and the stormtroopers are in armor, and although he does throw one scout trooper on Endor, that seems to be more a matter of his need to remain silent rather than him choosing to go hand-to-hand. In the books, he tries to avoid unarmed combat when he can, but when he can't and when he's up against an opponent in his class, i.e. not a Wookie or another alien who vastly outclasses him, he holds his own rather well.

In the Black Fleet Crisis, as he's being transported about Nil Spaar's flagship, he's planning how he would escape constantly, watching his guards for any slip-up. His thinking is not what you'd see from some pampered playboy, but from a seasoned combat vet who knows he's in the shit deep and is determined to take whatever opportunities he can, if they present themselves. Similar deal in Han Solo and the Lost Legacy. After he and is party are captured and confined for a time, they are moved. As they are, Han's line of thinking is one of "How can I/we take out our guards and get the hell out of here" all the way. In both this instanced, Han is at worst unarmed and at one point in the Black Fleet Crisis he has a weapon in the form of a bar that he's been strapped to in a careless manner, which could serve as a weapon.

[Darth Servo]

Doesn't matter. Han shoots first. There is nothing more dirty than that.

I thought Greedo shoots first in the lastest incarnation of SW Trilogy.

Brian

HEATHEN!!!!!!

I haven't actually seen them yet, but I've heard that in the DVD, they shoot at the same time.

[Darth Servo]

Saying William Shatner was a fatass in TOS (IIRC they had to band some cloth around his stomach so he wouldn't look so fat) and therefore Kirk has to be doesn't work.

I didn't say he was a fatass in TOS. I said he was a fatass in ST3 which is a verifiable FACT.

[Lord Revan]

I haven't actually seen them yet, but I've heard that in the DVD, they shoot at the same time.

it's true Greedo get's lucky shot, but misses while Han's shot hits the target. In the DVD version there's no dout that Han would and did shoot Greedo in cold blood

[Crossroads Inc.]

Really Tiny Text

Sveeeeett! Lucas actually gets something right!

[Lord Pounder]

Don't underestimate Hans toughness. This guy has been personally tortured by the nastiest bastards in the SW universe and still came out kicking. In the Corellian trilogy he fights a Selonian hand to hand, and a Selonian is comparable to a Wookie in height and strength, he's been tortured at the hands of Vader and still had the energy to floor Lando, and in the Black Fleet Crisis he was tortured by the Yveatha(sp?). After surviving that it's fair to say his character shields are as strong as Kirks.

Also don't forget Han was an officer in the Imperial Fleet, and trained at Cardia, and it'd be a fair assumption that he got unarned combat training there.

[Vicious]

Also don't forget Han was an officer in the Imperial Fleet, and trained at Cardia, and it'd be a fair assumption that he got unarned combat training there.

Good point. I hadn't considered his Imperial training, since he was Navy and not Army, but it makes sense that he would have received some of the same training that the Stormies get.

[brianeyci]

As I recall in the book, all three went for Han first, since he was the smallest. If I can find my copy, I'll try to direct quote it, but I distinctly remember them going for Han at the start.

You don't need to, I defer to you on that.

I would expect Han to be at least as fit as Kirk, and potentially a bit more. He doesn't work out per se, but his lifestyle is not one to tolerate flab.

Kirk is a military officer and probably does work out. We know that there's military training in TOS and they keep fit through exercises. At the very least there has got to be some weight training.

False Dilemma. You're using Treks "Visuals or Nothing" policy on Star Wars, when the Star Wars books are declared canon so long as they don't conflict with the films. Since we have no footage of Han getting his ass kicked consitently in unarmed combat in the films, and the books point towards him having quite a bit of experience and skill at it, the books win.

No, it is not visuals or nothing. It is "we don't see Han fight" so there are many ways to intepret his fighting style, just like there are many ways to intepret the thousands of Yangs from Tracey's comment. Fighting three men at once when he was a teenager sounds really impressive, but did all three come at him at once? You're a martial artist so you know that even fighting two at once is difficult. Did Han just brawl his way out of it, or did he use his martial arts? Was his back against a wall or two walls so only one or two could come at a time? If he's a teenager at this point, how has he gotten the martial arts training to defeat multiple opponents? Perhaps he was just lucky?

Woah woah woah! Slow the hell down. When did I ever say anything about Shatner being fat?

You didn't, that was Darth Servo, sorry about misquoting.

As to the "freaking playboy" remark, where's the proof? He uses his blaster most of the time because it's the most effective tool for the job. He can fight unarmed, but he chooses not to whenever possible, and smartly so. In the movies, he never faces an opponent who would be worth it. Vader would cut him to pieces and the stormtroopers are in armor, and although he does throw one scout trooper on Endor, that seems to be more a matter of his need to remain silent rather than him choosing to go hand-to-hand. In the books, he tries to avoid unarmed combat when he can, but when he can't and when he's up against an opponent in his class, i.e. not a Wookie or another alien who vastly outclasses him, he holds his own rather well.

What kind of Han are we taking here? Post-ROTJ Han? How much of this martial prowress would have come later? Kirk has fought opponents above his class -- Vulcans and Klingons -- and held his own. He fights Spock twice, the one time in the transporter room where Kirk isn't handicapped he holds his own for awhile.

In the Black Fleet Crisis, as he's being transported about Nil Spaar's flagship, he's planning how he would escape constantly, watching his guards for any slip-up. His thinking is not what you'd see from some pampered playboy, but from a seasoned combat vet who knows he's in the shit deep and is determined to take whatever opportunities he can, if they present themselves. Similar deal in Han Solo and the Lost Legacy. After he and is party are captured and confined for a time, they are moved. As they are, Han's line of thinking is one of "How can I/we take out our guards and get the hell out of here" all the way. In both this instanced, Han is at worst unarmed and at one point in the Black Fleet Crisis he has a weapon in the form of a bar that he's been strapped to in a careless manner, which could serve as a weapon.

Fine I retract my playboy statement. But depending on what Han we take, Han might lose. How much of his martial training would have come post-ROTJ?

As to finding a bar to hit someone with -- that's more intellect than anything. Although it does prove that Solo is not a "playboy". What it doesn't prove is why would Han go through the time to train in hand-to-hand, especially in the movie era. Who is Han's sparring partner? Chewie?

Brian

[brianeyci]

Saying William Shatner was a fatass in TOS (IIRC they had to band some cloth around his stomach so he wouldn't look so fat) and therefore Kirk has to be doesn't work.

I didn't say he was a fatass in TOS. I said he was a fatass in ST3 which is a verifiable FACT.

Well whatever. The op says take Kirk at his prime, which is TOS, not TOS movies.

Conversely, taking Han at his prime would be movies? Unless you intepret prime to mean more than just age.

Brian

[Vicious]

Woah woah woah! Slow the hell down. When did I ever say anything about Shatner being fat?

You didn't, that was Darth Servo, sorry about misquoting.

No problem.

Kirk is a military officer and probably does work out. We know that there's military training in TOS and they keep fit through exercises. At the very least there has got to be some weight training.

Han was a military officer as well, long before his post-ROTJ service. He received training on Carida, and he no doubt received unarmed combat training.

Did Han just brawl his way out of it, or did he use his martial arts? Was his back against a wall or two walls so only one or two could come at a time?

The book doesn't describe the fight in any great detail, since it's not from Han's perspective, but the ring was roughly circular and empty, so not much for Han to hind behind or against. In other books it references his experience at the Free-For-All, and they all indicate him coming away badly hurt but most definately the best off of the three. As to how he fought his way out, I can't say. Again, the book isn't from his perspective, so we only get a glimpse of the actual fight.

What kind of Han are we taking here? Post-ROTJ Han? How much of this martial prowress would have come later?

I'd say, if we're taking Han in his prime, than pre-OT Han from the books. He's in his early twenties and is fresh out of his stint in the military.

n the Corellian trilogy he fights a Selonian hand to hand, and a Selonian is comparable to a Wookie in height and strength...

(snipped) I haven't read the Selonian trilogy myself, but if so than that's an impressive feat and beats a Klingon or a Vulcan handily. How did he fair in his fight, though?

But depending on what Han we take, Han might lose. How much of his martial training would have come post-ROTJ?

Considering we have evidence of military training before he joined the rebellion, and the fact that his rank in the Republic seemed largely honorary for a long time, that seems to me to indicate that the vast majority of his combat training came before the movies. He probably picked up fleet tactics and the like during his stint in the NR Navy, but I doubt he'd have aquired much in the way of unarmed combat skills being a General, which is a ground rank, but we see several space commanders called General. [/i]

[brianeyci]

We should also consider whether or not the situation was a character shield. For example, Pregnant Major Kira can take out 180 lbs burly Klingons with a single hit. It is obviously a character shield situation. For example, stormtroopers are often touted as elite and the proof most often brought on is the opening scene in ANH where they kick ass against Rebel troopers -- and their inaccuracy when dealing with mains like Luke is explained because Luke has a huge character shield.

If Han has no chance in hell in beating a Wookie-strengthed character, yet somehow he beats him through pure unarmed alone, that reeks wank and character shield to me. No matter how much martial arts a 150 lbs man learns, his chances of beating a bear in unarmed are zero. If a main character beats a gorillia strengthed noname, we should take a step back and decide whether it is physically possible.

Brian

[Darth Servo]

We should also consider whether or not the situation was a character shield. For example, Pregnant Major Kira can take out 180 lbs burly Klingons with a single hit. It is obviously a character shield situation.

Nana Visitor was pregnant. Kira was not.

For example, stormtroopers are often touted as elite and the proof most often brought on is the opening scene in ANH where they kick ass against Rebel troopers -- and their inaccuracy when dealing with mains like Luke is explained because Luke has a huge character shield.

Wrong. They didn't hit Luke on the DS in ANH because they were ordered to let the rebels escape so they could be tracked back to their base.

If Han has no chance in hell in beating a Wookie-strengthed character, yet somehow he beats him through pure unarmed alone, that reeks wank and character shield to me. No matter how much martial arts a 150 lbs man learns, his chances of beating a bear in unarmed are zero. If a main character beats a gorillia strengthed noname, we should take a step back and decide whether it is physically possible.

Too bad Kirk is neither a Wookie, bear or gorillia.

[Darth Servo]

Saying William Shatner was a fatass in TOS (IIRC they had to band some cloth around his stomach so he wouldn't look so fat) and therefore Kirk has to be doesn't work.

I didn't say he was a fatass in TOS. I said he was a fatass in ST3 which is a verifiable FACT.

Well whatever. The op says take Kirk at his prime, which is TOS, not TOS movies.

I wasn't TRYING to say Han vs the Kirk of the movies. The POINT was about Klingons being over rated. If an ageing over weight Kirk can kick the ass of a Klingon starship captain, beating up a Klingon is clearly not that much to brag about.

This is VERY dangerous behavior for someone who has a current VI nomination thread.

Conversely, taking Han at his prime would be movies? Unless you intepret prime to mean more than just age.

It usually means their best.

[brianeyci]

Nana Visitor was pregnant. Kira was not.

I checked the script, and you're right. Kira gets pregnant later.

Wrong. They didn't hit Luke on the DS in ANH because they were ordered to let the rebels escape so they could be tracked back to their base.

Okay. Since this isn't explicit in the movie like "Bring Luke's friends to me" in ROTJ, I didn't consider this. I thought the homing beacon was just a fail-safe, but considering Vader, its obvious the escape was planned.

However, how do you explain the bad aim in Tatoonie docking bay?

Too bad Kirk is neither a Wookie, bear or gorillia.

Who said that Kirk was a Wookie, bear or a gorillia? If you bothered reading Vicious' post, you would have seen that there was a suggestion Han beat a wookie-strengthed character in the EU. That is what I am responding to.

Brian

[The Silence and I]

I wasn't TRYING to say Han vs the Kirk of the movies. The POINT was about Klingons being over rated. If an ageing over weight Kirk can kick the ass of a Klingon starship captain, beating up a Klingon is clearly not that much to brag about.

Actually, this Klingon was winning and despite his small stature exhibited a strength beyond the best of body builders, lifting the fat Kirk clear off the ground at arms length.

He then head butted Kirk to the ground (which did not stop Kirk I would add) who then returned with two punches in the face and then tried to kick the Klingon. But he caught the leg and tossed Kirk backwards spinning through the air. Again Kirk was not deterred, he came back with a large heavy branch and clubbed the Klingon several times before the Klingon caught the branch and threw Kirk into a large rock with it and proceeded to slam him bodily against the rock several times. Then Kirk nailed the Klingon in the balls. The Klingon threw Kirk to the ground and then stumbled off the nearby cliff in his pain. Moments later he was ready to fight again and he lost in the end because the cliff fell out from under him.

Based on the BEATING this very strong Klingon gave the old, out of shape Kirk I would expect a Kirk in his prime to be much tougher. It's nice when you can kill two birds with one stone: show how tough Kirk is and provide an example of a Klingon who does not suck

By the way, I expect Kirk to win.

[brianeyci]

I wasn't TRYING to say Han vs the Kirk of the movies. The POINT was about Klingons being over rated. If an ageing over weight Kirk can kick the ass of a Klingon starship captain, beating up a Klingon is clearly not that much to brag about.

This is VERY dangerous behavior for someone who has a current VI nomination thread.

Whatever, if you wanted to say that Klingons are overrated and aging overweight Kirk can beat up a Klingon, then a counter to that is that Kruge wanted Genesis and was holding back from killing him. Kruge even said that he was happy to fight Kirk to the death, as if he was enjoying the fight. Remember that Kruge only lost because the ground gave way underneath him and he dropped onto the ledge. Kirk was losing to Kruge.

Brian