Vong vs Species8572

[Darth Servo]

As a nitpick dialed down output has been proposed to explain this; and it fits with the episode's events as I understand them. If you want to attack something, attack the idea that 8472 dialed down the power.

And do you have a reason why they would do this?

8472 weapons are ALSO known to work on chain reactions (see the planet buster) that doesn't work very well on shields. Thats a far better explanation.

[Robert Walper]

As a nitpick dialed down output has been proposed to explain this; and it fits with the episode's events as I understand them. If you want to attack something, attack the idea that 8472 dialed down the power.

And do you have a reason why they would do this?

For the same reason the US Military doesn't fire off tactical nuclear warheads against single tanks. It's overkill and wasteful.

[Lone_Prodigy]

For the same reason the US Military doesn't fire off tactical nuclear warheads against single tanks. It's overkill and wasteful.

Well, that depends on the tank. Against a Bolo, the US would probably use its entire nuclear arsenal if it came down to it.

[Darth Servo]

For the same reason the US Military doesn't fire off tactical nuclear warheads against single tanks. It's overkill and wasteful.

Its MORE wasteful to fire off a shot that doesn't get the job done.

[The Silence and I]

As a nitpick dialed down output has been proposed to explain this; and it fits with the episode's events as I understand them. If you want to attack something, attack the idea that 8472 dialed down the power.

And do you have a reason why they would do this?

8472 weapons are ALSO known to work on chain reactions (see the planet buster) that doesn't work very well on shields. Thats a far better explanation.

No, it is not. Have you forgotten the Borg use shields? Have you forgotten Borg shielding systems can easily shrug off an entire Federation fleet's firepower? Have you forgotten species 8472 weaponry pierces Borg shielding like a hot knife through butter?

Any weapon than can pierce shielding that nonchalantly shrugs off entire torpedo and phaser salvos can easily shatter Voyager in one hit.

The Enterprise D alpha strike would, if used against itself, destroy itself quickly. The Borg don't have a problem dealing with an entire battle fleet's incoming firepower, so what makes you think a weapon that pierced these defenses will not atomize Voyager through the shields unless dialed down?

[The Silence and I]

For the same reason the US Military doesn't fire off tactical nuclear warheads against single tanks. It's overkill and wasteful.

Its MORE wasteful to fire off a shot that doesn't get the job done.

Not if the goal is to capture and study. Use too high a setting and you risk atomizing the target you wanted to disable and capture.

[Darth Servo]

Have you forgotten the Borg use shields?

Have you forgotten that they never seem to be up until AFTER the enemy takes the first shot?

Have you forgotten Borg shielding systems can easily shrug off an entire Federation fleet's firepower?

In BOBW, yes. In First Contact, no.

Have you forgotten species 8472 weaponry pierces Borg shielding like a hot knife through butter?

See first response in this post.

Any weapon than can pierce shielding that nonchalantly shrugs off entire torpedo and phaser salvos can easily shatter Voyager in one hit.

You're assuming the weapon "pierces" the shield rather than the sheild not being up for the first hit (like it usually is) or it taking advantage of a built in weakness (like the BOP did to the E-D in Generations).

The Enterprise D alpha strike would, if used against itself, destroy itself quickly. The Borg don't have a problem dealing with an entire battle fleet's incoming firepower, so what makes you think a weapon that pierced these defenses will not atomize Voyager through the shields unless dialed down?

what makes you think the weapon was "piercing" the shields at all?

[Darth Servo]

Its MORE wasteful to fire off a shot that doesn't get the job done.

Not if the goal is to capture and study. Use too high a setting and you risk atomizing the target you wanted to disable and capture.

Right. Thats why they were proadcasting "the weak will perish" and "your galaxy will be purged"

There is ZERO canon evidence that S8472 wanted to capture Voyager.

[SirNitram]

Furthermore, let me roll my eyes. A sensible person would look at this thread and say 'hrm, maybe they've discussed this before and worked out how much power those Bioships spew, and whether it's enough to bring down a Cube.' You, on the other hand, just chalk it up to 'Anything but Trek' feeling. Thank you for dropping to an Appeal to Motive fallacy.

EH, heh, terribly sorry about that, I AM a bit new, not meaning to belittle positions one way or the other. I simply noticed how few people like the Vong and Bio tech, and thought I would put them up against something equally hated by StarTrek.

Well, popularity wise, both are panned by the majority(Though we do have a small contingent who like NJO). And Scorpion was basically everything bad said about Species Of The Week crammed into a two parter. But yes, we've looked over what would probably happen, via SoD. Search the archive board(Go through the Search button at the top) and you should find 'em.

[Junghalli]

Have you forgotten that they never seem to be up until AFTER the enemy takes the first shot?

Oh yes, the Borg always approached 8472 ships with their shields down, in every battle. Not only that, they never bothered to raise them and therefore were pwned again and again. They wouldn't have been loosing the war if they were smart enough to actually raise their shields in battle.
LOL I realize Voyager Borg were stupid, but let's not get carried away here!

In BOBW, yes. In First Contact, no.

In FC they were fighting a larger fleet and they'd still have won if Picard hadn't used his residual link with the Collective against them.
Another thing to consider is that the cubes we see in VOY and FC appear to be a different ship type than we see in TNG. TNG Borg cubes have a lot of piping and balconies surrounding their inner hulls. FC/VOY cubes don't. If we're seeing two different ship types isn't it probable that the cube in FC was a weaker type than the one in BOBW?

Have you forgotten species 8472 weaponry pierces Borg shielding like a hot knife through butter?

See first response in this post.

Dude, I realize Voyager Borg were dumb but a species that doesn't raise their shields in the middle of a fleet action would quite simply be too stupid to live, let alone become the galaxy-spanning power the Borg are.

[Robert Walper]

For the same reason the US Military doesn't fire off tactical nuclear warheads against single tanks. It's overkill and wasteful.

Its MORE wasteful to fire off a shot that doesn't get the job done.

So the bioship miscalculated the amount of firepower to take out a Federation Intrepid class starship, from a civilization they had never before encountered. What's so surprising? Voyager was sent reeling and barely escaped. The bioship didn't bother pursuing, which obviously suggests she wasn't really an important target to them at that time.

[The Silence and I]

Its MORE wasteful to fire off a shot that doesn't get the job done.

Not if the goal is to capture and study. Use too high a setting and you risk atomizing the target you wanted to disable and capture.

Right. Thats why they were proadcasting "the weak will perish" and "your galaxy will be purged"

There is ZERO canon evidence that S8472 wanted to capture Voyager.

I've said it before I'll say it again, I never watched it. I recall someone claiming their goal was capture but if that was not the case I apologize.

Have you forgotten that they never seem to be up until AFTER the enemy takes the first shot?

Unless cubes were destroyed with a single hit this is not a very good counter. Further more the shields are up and running against weaponry the Borg have already encountered; first engagement in BOBW has the Borg sustaining no damage from the Enterprise weaponry until Shelby has Data rotate frequencies randomly. The Borg have dealt with species 8472 weaponry, they know how to shield against it. Try again.

In BOBW, yes. In First Contact, no.

Incorrect.
In First Contact the fleet was using weaponry specifically designed to defeat Borg defenses; they caused damage with their tricks not with their firepower.

You're assuming the weapon "pierces" the shield rather than the sheild not being up for the first hit (like it usually is) or it taking advantage of a built in weakness (like the BOP did to the E-D in Generations).

I make the default assumption. Borg defenses adapt to the weaponry they experience; only by quickly and randomly changing the properties of your weaponry can you trick them. Species 8472 simply overpowered the shield grids on the cubes. We have no evidence to the contrary except Voyager's refusal to die. Lower yields is a simpler explanation than inventing new properties for their weapons never before seen, and it would take nothing less to explain their penetration of Borg defenses--unless you wish to seriously propose they rotate frequencies randomly just for the hell of it (assuming they even HAVE frequencies on their weapons).

what makes you think the weapon was "piercing" the shields at all?

It's a standard assumption to make. The Borg have shields that adapt to every weapon we have ever seen used against them. Species 8472 have powerful weaponry and can easily destroy cubes and even entire planets. When faced with this information I tend to assume species 8472 has a superior power source and blasts through Borg shields. To explain Voyager's inane character shields I claim the persuing ships dialed down their weapon output.

You invent properties of their weapons that allow them to always bypass Borg shielding with less firepower than is needed to take out Voyager's shields. You are not prepared to explain how these weapons bypass Borg shields yet are blocked by Voyager's, but you expect me to believe it as the superior explanation.

[Junghalli]

An 8472 armed spacecraft is more powerful than a Borg cube. A Borg cube has to have at least 50 times the firepower of Voyager (ref. battle of Wolf 359). Four of their craft are massive overkill for taking down Voyager.

And yet Voyager survived being hit by one. A>B. B>C. C>A. Nice little logic there, isn't it?

So by your logic a Federation destroyer can take a full-power 8472 ship and win? The same 8472 ships that were blowing up Borg cubes like turkeys, when those cubes have at least dozens of time the firepower of a Federation battlecruiser? <sarcasm> I detect something subtly wrong with your reasoning but I just can't put my finger on it.</sarcasm>

Right. You're conducting the invasion of a race that spans thousands of star systems. Of COURSE you'll send in your wimpiest ships.

Because their wimpiest ship types were kicking the Borg's ass. Heavier classes might have been overkill.

8472 weapons are ALSO known to work on chain reactions

Pardon me while I rant for a moment against the stupidity of Trek.
AAAAGGGGGHHHH!!! Why must every Trek weapon work by some kind of chain reaction bullshit? WHY? WHY?:banghead:

[The Silence and I]

8472 weapons are ALSO known to work on chain reactions

Pardon me while I rant for a moment against the stupidity of Trek.
AAAAGGGGGHHHH!!! Why must every Trek weapon work by some kind of chain reaction bullshit? WHY? WHY?:banghead:

You want the simple answer? Because the special effects guys like it when things exlode after power is no longer applied. It looks cool to them, but unfortunately means what we see must be a chain reaction of some kind. If it makes you feel better there probably isn't a single weapon in all of anime that isn't a chain reaction, so startrek is not alone.

[Darth Servo]

So the bioship miscalculated the amount of firepower to take out a Federation Intrepid class starship, from a civilization they had never before encountered. What's so surprising?

They miscalculated by dialing down their weapons from anti-borg level to a miniscule fraction of that (not even 1/100th)?

Voyager was sent reeling and barely escaped.

Yet it didn't even bring down their shields. If it was a simple energy beam (no fancy tricks) that beam wouldn't be that much more powerful than a Ferengi ships weapons which took the E-D's shields down by 30% in The Last Outpost.

The bioship didn't bother pursuing, which obviously suggests she wasn't really an important target to them at that time.

How do you know it "didn't bother pursuing"? How do you know Voyager didn't just out-run it?

[Darth Servo]

An 8472 armed spacecraft is more powerful than a Borg cube. A Borg cube has to have at least 50 times the firepower of Voyager (ref. battle of Wolf 359). Four of their craft are massive overkill for taking down Voyager.

And yet Voyager survived being hit by one. A>B. B>C. C>A. Nice little logic there, isn't it?

So by your logic a Federation destroyer can take a full-power 8472 ship and win? The same 8472 ships that were blowing up Borg cubes like turkeys, when those cubes have at least dozens of time the firepower of a Federation battlecruiser? <sarcasm> I detect something subtly wrong with your reasoning but I just can't put my finger on it.</sarcasm>

Exactly. I was pointing out what was wrong with YOUR logic. If Voyager survived a hit from one of those weapons, they can't have all that much pure power in them.

Right. You're conducting the invasion of a race that spans thousands of star systems. Of COURSE you'll send in your wimpiest ships.

Because their wimpiest ship types were kicking the Borg's ass. Heavier classes might have been overkill.

Heavier classes that there is no evidence even exist?

8472 weapons are ALSO known to work on chain reactions

Pardon me while I rant for a moment against the stupidity of Trek.
AAAAGGGGGHHHH!!! Why must every Trek weapon work by some kind of chain reaction bullshit? WHY? WHY?:banghead:

You're pardoned.

[Junghalli]

Exactly. I was pointing out what was wrong with YOUR logic. If Voyager survived a hit from one of those weapons, they can't have all that much pure power in them.

If 8472 weapons were really that weak the Borg would have creamed them. Unless the 8472's have absolutely huge numbers.

Heavier classes that there is no evidence even exist?

Granted.

[SirNitram]

Exactly. I was pointing out what was wrong with YOUR logic. If Voyager survived a hit from one of those weapons, they can't have all that much pure power in them.

If 8472 weapons were really that weak the Borg would have creamed them. Unless the 8472's have absolutely huge numbers.

That's unlikely, as they fled like cowards after they lost a dozen or so troops. If they are large in numbers, yet committed a full retreat after that nosetap, they're just fucking pathetic.

[Robert Walper]

So the bioship miscalculated the amount of firepower to take out a Federation Intrepid class starship, from a civilization they had never before encountered. What's so surprising?

They miscalculated by dialing down their weapons from anti-borg level to a miniscule fraction of that (not even 1/100th)?

You don't fire anti tank rounds at foot soldiers. You switch to anti personnel rounds. So Voyager was slightly more shielded than anticipated. I still don't see your point.

Voyager was sent reeling and barely escaped.

Yet it didn't even bring down their shields. If it was a simple energy beam (no fancy tricks) that beam wouldn't be that much more powerful than a Ferengi ships weapons which took the E-D's shields down by 30% in The Last Outpost.

I'd say a beam that knocks Voyager completely off it's axis is slightly more powerful than that. Let's not forget Voyager, despite it's size, is a slightly more advanced ship than the TNG Galaxy.

The bioship didn't bother pursuing, which obviously suggests she wasn't really an important target to them at that time.

How do you know it "didn't bother pursuing"? How do you know Voyager didn't just out-run it?

Because Paris stated the bioship was not pursing.

PARIS: Captain, the bio-ship is powering up, like it's charging some kind of weapon.
JANEWAY: Mr. Paris, get us out of here. Maximum warp!
PARIS: The alien ship is not pursuing.

[Darth Servo]

You don't fire anti tank rounds at foot soldiers. You switch to anti personnel rounds. So Voyager was slightly more shielded than anticipated. I still don't see your point.

Invalid analogy. Give me ONE reason why the 8472 should think Voyager was so under defended.

You DO use the anti tank rounds against the smaller tanks as you do the big tanks.

A fighter pilot would use the same air-to-air missles to take out a B-52 as he would an F-4.

I'd say a beam that knocks Voyager completely off it's axis is slightly more powerful than that. Let's not forget Voyager, despite it's size, is a slightly more advanced ship than the TNG Galaxy.

That doesn't mean that a small Intrepid class (essentially a scout ship) has orders of magnitude more powerful shields than their Flagship.

Because Paris stated the bioship was not pursing.

fine. This alien probably had bigger fish to fry. The alien probably figured that another one of his fellows would take care of them. That still doesn't prove he was trying to capture Voyager.

[Darth Servo]

Exactly. I was pointing out what was wrong with YOUR logic. If Voyager survived a hit from one of those weapons, they can't have all that much pure power in them.

If 8472 weapons were really that weak the Borg would have creamed them. Unless the 8472's have absolutely huge numbers.

OR, like I've been saying all along, they are a chain reaction weapon that requires several seconds to achieve its effects and it didn't have enough time to work its magic on Voyager. The borg OTOH just sit there like the idiots they are and take it.

[Praxis]

You know, that may have been something overlooked… While the Vong would surely overwhelm these guys in space battle, would 8472 have an advantage in hand to hand? They do seem really nasty fighters…

Is a Species 8472 claw more powerful than a saber?
I highly doubt it.

As a result, it can't peirce their armor. Vong are practically invulnerable unless 8472 can put their claws under their ARMPITS. And to get that close the Vong will literally cut them cleanly in two with the amphistaffs.

And on the approach, seeking razor bugs should do some nice damage.

[Darth Wong]

For the same reason the US Military doesn't fire off tactical nuclear warheads against single tanks. It's overkill and wasteful.

Its MORE wasteful to fire off a shot that doesn't get the job done.

So the bioship miscalculated the amount of firepower to take out a Federation Intrepid class starship, from a civilization they had never before encountered. What's so surprising? Voyager was sent reeling and barely escaped. The bioship didn't bother pursuing, which obviously suggests she wasn't really an important target to them at that time.

Obviously, you are too fucking stupid to realize that since they knew nothing of Voyager, if we accept your idiotic postulate that they would dial down their weapon power for no reason, they would dial it down assuming that Voyager's power to size ratio is similar to that of a Borg cube.

[The Silence and I]

You know, that may have been something overlooked… While the Vong would surely overwhelm these guys in space battle, would 8472 have an advantage in hand to hand? They do seem really nasty fighters…

As a result, it can't peirce their armor. Vong are practically invulnerable unless 8472 can put their claws under their ARMPITS. And to get that close the Vong will literally cut them cleanly in two with the amphistaffs.

As a nitpick, they don't need to pierce the armor if they can cause massive, fatal acceleration when they strike the Vong warrior. IIRC these guys are fantastically strong and can kill with blunt trauma.

As for your other points, well I'd say they stand.

bviously, you are too fucking stupid to realize that since they knew nothing of Voyager, if we accept your idiotic postulate that they would dial down their weapon power for no reason, they would dial it down assuming that Voyager's power to size ratio is similar to that of a Borg cube.

The only way Robert's idea would work is if Species 8472 had information concerning Voyager's defenses. If their sensors are as good as the typical Federation's they could detect if the shield out put was orders of magnitude below their own defensive standards.

This is hardly proved as they are not Federation craft, but it is an explanation even if not the best one.

[Robert Walper]

Obviously, you are too fucking stupid to realize that since they knew nothing of Voyager, if we accept your idiotic postulate that they would dial down their weapon power for no reason, they would dial it down assuming that Voyager's power to size ratio is similar to that of a Borg cube.

The motives behind the bioship's attack are not certain. We could speculate it may have only intented to chase Voyager off, not interested in wasting effort in even destroying her. Much like how one would half heartedly swat at an insect while being much more interested in dealing with a more serious foe/threat.