A very crippled DSII reaches earth's orbit

[Aaron]

To be honest, they got their stats from WEG. The site also says the DSII is 160km in diameter, and the number of TIE squadrons seems small for what's actually a 900km station.

You make a good point. But it made a decent low end estimate for us to use. I posted Dr. Saxtons estimate and I'm going to use his estimate as he is actually involved with Lucasfilm, and his site is impeccably researched.

[lPeregrine]

Which post? Where did wautd change the scenario to include the tractor beam projectors' disabled condition?

Page 5, about halfway down, he agrees with my suggestion that the absence of the tractor beams on the disabled systems was due to author error, not intent that the Death Star has them.

It is if the attack fails to destroy the DS.

In which case the Death Star destroys Earth just like it will if no attack is made. How is it any worse to have Earth die trying to fight than to just accept billions of casualties and risk the Death Star doing the same to other worlds?

Something we've rarely seen in Trek. I doubt they're going to use such unorthodox tactics.

We've rarely seen them faced with such a one-sided and desperate fight, where the orthodox tactics will kill billions of people and not even scratch the paint on their enemy.

==========================

o, anything in that skull of yours? They could have a month to evacuate, or minutes before the TIEs start coming in like gigaton-armed locusts, depending on their actions. Attacking it would only likely doom earth immediately unless the attack was successful.

Even if the Earth's population hasn't increased at all from today, there are billions of people there. Even if the Imperials made no attempt to interfere with the evacuation, there's no way to save everyone on Earth.

The choice is to lose billions of lives in an attack, or to lose slightly fewer lives and leave the entire galaxy hostage to the Death Star commander's wishes. And since the Earth is doomed to destruction, it's not too unlikely that it won't be the only target.

[Firefox]

Page 5, about halfway down, he agrees with my suggestion that the absence of the tractor beams on the disabled systems was due to author error, not intent that the Death Star has them.

Funny, he doesn't make that very clear in the post.

In which case the Death Star destroys Earth just like it will if no attack is made. How is it any worse to have Earth die trying to fight than to just accept billions of casualties and risk the Death Star doing the same to other worlds?

Why not try to evacuate Earth instead of wasting effort trying to destroy a virtually impenetrable fortress?

We've rarely seen them faced with such a one-sided and desperate fight, where the orthodox tactics will kill billions of people and not even scratch the paint on their enemy.

You mean like the Borg and the Dominion? And as others have said, I doubt Starfleet would have the resources (or even think) to use asteroids in such a manner.

[lPeregrine]

Page 5, about halfway down, he agrees with my suggestion that the absence of the tractor beams on the disabled systems was due to author error, not intent that the Death Star has them.

Funny, he doesn't make that very clear in the post.

He posted a reply to my comment claiming that, and said "yes, that's what I meant". I think that's pretty clear that good or bad, he's revising the initial post to mean that.

Why not try to evacuate Earth instead of wasting effort trying to destroy a virtually impenetrable fortress?

Because Earth can't be evacuated completely, and waiting until the last second to attack only lowers their odds of success. And because Earth is unlikely to be the only target. The Death Star is going to destroy Earth, so obviously it doesn've have peacful intentions. The only question is whether it becomes the new overlords of the Star Trek galaxy or just blows up everything.

You mean like the Borg and the Dominion? And as others have said, I doubt Starfleet would have the resources (or even think) to use asteroids in such a manner.

Neither of which were anywhere near as one-sided, and invulnerable to traditional tactics. I know the Federation aren't the best military tacticians ever, but assuming they'd just watch the fleet die, and then stare helplessly until the Earth joins it is a bit too much.

And as for them thinking of it, I find it hard to believe that a random person on an internet forum could think of it, but people with years of command experience wouldn't.

[The Silence and I]

[And where did you come up with a 2.5 km size?

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Dat ... pName=Deja Q

That is a terrible image to scale with; the Enterprise is considerably closer to us than the moon. Look at the screen caps I provided, the moon is most definately larger than 2.5 km in diameter, it could be as large as 10 km in diameter without straining credibility.

[Darth Wong]

A few points here:

1) By edit to the initial post, the tractor beams don't exist. It doesn't matter how powerful they are, by the time the tractor beams come back, so do the superlaser and shields and it doesn't matter.

So the OP keeps getting edited. Why?

Because the person who wrote it said that he had intended for the Death Star to be completely disabled, and had just forgotten to mention tractor beams by name. He posted that a page or two back, when they were first mentioned.

So? He wasn't thinking of asteroids vs Death Star either; he was thinking of Federation weapons directly used against Death Star. Are you trying to say that creative tactics should only be permissible on the part of one side, but not the other?

[NecronLord]

sauron was the only one who knew how to build the things...

...rings of power?

[Connor MacLeod]

So the OP keeps getting edited. Why?

Because the person who wrote it said that he had intended for the Death Star to be completely disabled, and had just forgotten to mention tractor beams by name. He posted that a page or two back, when they were first mentioned.

So? He wasn't thinking of asteroids vs Death Star either; he was thinking of Federation weapons directly used against Death Star. Are you trying to say that creative tactics should only be permissible on the part of one side, but not the other?

Not that its a problem. Even without the tractor beams, the Death Star still has literally thousands of fighters and gunboats that can carry missiles capable of destroying the asteroid. (like you said, its not as if the Federation is instantly going to amass huge numbers of asteroids in a short period of time.)

If the Feddies try to do so, the Imperials could easily detect such tactics long before they can be executed (even assuming the DS2's own sensors are disabled, there are still probe droids, fighter patrtols, etc.) Once located, the Imperials could dispatch a fighter group to attack the buildup before they execute it, or they could threaten to attack Earth if the Feddies try to pull anything. And worse comes to worse, ,they threaten to blow up the Death Star.

[Connor MacLeod]

of course, this also makes one wonder if the OP is going to end up being changed yet AGAIN to somehow make TIES incapable of carrying missiles or being able to move very far beyond the Death Star for some reason or another.

AS has been noted, this thread is already becoming ludicrously one-sided since the Imperials continually get their "tactics" negated after the fact (IE tractor beams.) Might as well make it a completely disabled and unarmed Death Star (whee the Feddies might be able to eventually destroy a completely crippled DS2!)

[RedImperator]

Um, just how many giant asteroids do you think there are in the Solar System? Last I checked, the number of rocks over 100km across is about ten.

And if the Federation can actually tow the Death Star into the sun (an assumption for which I've seen no evidence presented) why not tow one of Saturn's larger moons up to speed and let it smash into the Death Star, instead of fucking around with asteroids which probably won't penetrate the main armor belt anyway.

[The Silence and I]

Well, one idea that comes to mind is the risk that imposes on Earth...

Earth is much better off if A) the DS explodes elsewhere and B) there is no large moon making a close pass and screwing up things with its gravity.

Assuming of course they can do either. I personally think they can, just not with a single ship of course, it would take several dozen or more to move something that massive in any time frame worth contemplating.

[RedImperator]

Well, one idea that comes to mind is the risk that imposes on Earth...

Earth is much better off if A) the DS explodes elsewhere and B) there is no large moon making a close pass and screwing up things with its gravity.

Assuming of course they can do either. I personally think they can, just not with a single ship of course, it would take several dozen or more to move something that massive in any time frame worth contemplating.

...several dozen? E-D could barely move a 2.5 km rock. I have my doubts the entire fleet together could move an object that size.

[Aaron]

...several dozen? E-D could barely move a 2.5 km rock. I have my doubts the entire fleet together could move an object that size.

The DSII has to be massively heavy. Hell if the hypermatter in and ISD outways the ship by an order of magnitude than the hypermatter in the DSII must be incredibly massive. Not to mention the weight of all that dense armor.

Would it be out there to speculate that the DSII may weigh close to what Earth does?

[The Silence and I]

Well, one idea that comes to mind is the risk that imposes on Earth...

Earth is much better off if A) the DS explodes elsewhere and B) there is no large moon making a close pass and screwing up things with its gravity.

Assuming of course they can do either. I personally think they can, just not with a single ship of course, it would take several dozen or more to move something that massive in any time frame worth contemplating.

...several dozen? E-D could barely move a 2.5 km rock. I have my doubts the entire fleet together could move an object that size.

It was larger than 2.5 km (nitpick, orders of magnitude say this isn't that important in the big picture, but this is getting annoying--see my above screen caps).

My idea is for the federation fleet to deal with the TIEs (this could be extremely hard), destroy the tractor mounts on one side of the DS, and start pulling/pushing the station with every available ship. While the heavy impulse ships are towing the DS (delta vee added/subtracted every day may be extremely low but over time there will be an effect) the rest of the fleet destroys the DS sublight engines to prevent it ever regaining mobility. Then keep towing for as long as you need, and keep away from the side of the station with the intact tractor beams.

If you want to know how I expect the Federation to damage the tractor beams and then the engines it is with antimatter--naked antimatter reacting with the bare hull of the DS, which nullifies the properties of the armor somewhat. This would be delivered with a modified torpedo which dumps antimatter in front of it moments before impact; the torpedo's speed (they can travel ~30,000 km in less than a second) will go a long way towards preventing the tractor emitter from deflecting the attack.

Would it be out there to speculate that the DSII may weigh close to what Earth does?

It would not be so very far fetched actually. This is why my strategy relies on preventing the DS from regaining sublight capability; the time needed to tow it away--even with a fleet of hundreds--is going to be huge.

[Firefox]

My idea is for the federation fleet to deal with the TIEs (this could be extremely hard),

Of course, since there would be too many of the fighters, in addition to dealing with their maneuverability and firepower. The fleet is toast.

destroy the tractor mounts on one side of the DS, and start pulling/pushing the station with every available ship.

How do you destroy the tractor beam projectors without penetrating the fighter screen and avoid being destroyed by the projectors themselves?

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Would it be out there to speculate that the DSII may weigh close to what Earth does?

Considering the second Death Star had enough fuel to destroy the rebel fleet and Endor, and was pretty-fully constructed, wouldn't that have SEVERELY messed up Endor, tidally?

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Edit: Forgot to include "if the fully-constructed DSII were to mass the same as Earth."

[Prozac the Robert]

*sarcasm*
Hasn't anyone thought about just shooting a blackhole at the DSII and be done with it?
*sarcasm*

You say sarcasm, but don't the romulans already have mastery of black holes for their ships? And didn't we just create a small black hole in a particle accelerator fairly recently.

So could the federation build a reasonable sized black hole in a month?

[Aaron]

Considering the second Death Star had enough fuel to destroy the rebel fleet and Endor, and was pretty-fully constructed, wouldn't that have SEVERELY messed up Endor, tidally?

I think it would have, I beleive Dr. Saxton comments on that on his site. But I'm not sure what his conclusions where.

[Techno_Union]

Considering the second Death Star had enough fuel to destroy the rebel fleet and Endor, and was pretty-fully constructed, wouldn't that have SEVERELY messed up Endor, tidally?

I think it would have, I beleive Dr. Saxton comments on that on his site. But I'm not sure what his conclusions where.

I believe the OT:ITW actually comments on the effects the DS II had on Endor, which, IIRC, were not good. I can get some quotes later if I remember.

[Aaron]

Dr. Saxton had this to say:

As an aside, the battle station would exert tidal effects obvious to coastal ewok communities. The magnitude of this effect depends on the station's mass, and this quantity has only a rough lower limit since we don't know whether the station's internal power source has significant energy-mass. At the very least, the empty density of the station would be something like ten kilograms per cubic metre, and the tides on the Endorian lakes would be up to perhaps six or nine metres in magnitude. Depending on how the physics of repulsorlift works, the tidal effects may be offset in large part by the station's repulsortlift support field. In any case, the tidal deformation of the moon's surface and waters will be stationary because the battle station is synchronous with the moon's rotation (ie. it stays above the same spot). The ewoks would simply notice lakes gradually creeping from their normal positions during the months of construction project.

Comes from here.

[Techno_Union]

Dr. Saxton had this to say:

As an aside, the battle station would exert tidal effects obvious to coastal ewok communities. The magnitude of this effect depends on the station's mass, and this quantity has only a rough lower limit since we don't know whether the station's internal power source has significant energy-mass. At the very least, the empty density of the station would be something like ten kilograms per cubic metre, and the tides on the Endorian lakes would be up to perhaps six or nine metres in magnitude. Depending on how the physics of repulsorlift works, the tidal effects may be offset in large part by the station's repulsortlift support field. In any case, the tidal deformation of the moon's surface and waters will be stationary because the battle station is synchronous with the moon's rotation (ie. it stays above the same spot). The ewoks would simply notice lakes gradually creeping from their normal positions during the months of construction project.

Comes from here.

Yeah I was incorrect. The ITW mentions the effects that the planetary repulsor projector had on Endor, not the DS II itself.

[Darth Wong]

You say sarcasm, but don't the romulans already have mastery of black holes for their ships? And didn't we just create a small black hole in a particle accelerator fairly recently.

So could the federation build a reasonable sized black hole in a month?

You are aware that a singularity is not magic, right? It does not pump out unlimited amounts of energy, and a Romulan reactor is not much more powerful than a Federation reactor, otherwise Romulan ships would kick Federation ships' asses all over the quadrant.

[The Silence and I]

You say sarcasm, but don't the romulans already have mastery of black holes for their ships? And didn't we just create a small black hole in a particle accelerator fairly recently.

So could the federation build a reasonable sized black hole in a month?

You are aware that a singularity is not magic, right? It does not pump out unlimited amounts of energy, and a Romulan reactor is not much more powerful than a Federation reactor, otherwise Romulan ships would kick Federation ships' asses all over the quadrant.

I think he is proposing sending the singularity at the DS, not using it as a power source.

[Darth Wong]

You say sarcasm, but don't the romulans already have mastery of black holes for their ships? And didn't we just create a small black hole in a particle accelerator fairly recently.

So could the federation build a reasonable sized black hole in a month?

You are aware that a singularity is not magic, right? It does not pump out unlimited amounts of energy, and a Romulan reactor is not much more powerful than a Federation reactor, otherwise Romulan ships would kick Federation ships' asses all over the quadrant.

I think he is proposing sending the singularity at the DS, not using it as a power source.

Brilliant tactic. The instant it is launched away from the ship, it explodes like a bomb because it is no longer being artificially maintained, and that's what low-mass singularities do when they are not being artificially maintained via magic technobabble.