Did Palpatine get Nerfed in ROTJ?

[Stravo]

Keep in mind that I am spoiler free for ROTS.

In the trailer we pretty much get a very good glimpse of what will happen when Palpy is confronted. It certainly looks like he is spry, fast, physically powerful and definately wields a lightsaber.

It looks like he takes on three Jedi at once, including Mace Windu considered one of the best Jedi duelist in the order, and I assume either defeats them or kills them. He definately takes on Yoda (once again all from the trailer) and resorts to flinging multi ton senatorial floaters at Yoda and hits him with force lightning.

Why then did he go down like a punk bitch in ROTJ?

When Luke flings away his lightsaber and Palpy says "So be it Jedi" why was the next scene not Palpy charging inbto Luke with an animal like growl like he did to Windu and kill him with one swift stroke?

Why was Anakin able to simply lift him, carry him a few meters and fling him down the shaft witthou this uber fast Sith Lord WITH precog reacting or at least slipping out of Vader's grip. I mean for fuck's sake he was able to scream Anakin several times before taking the old plunge.

Was it age? If we accept Dark Empire this is a man that can summon Force storms that can tear apart planets and fleets. Age didn't slow him down for that.

I was always resistant to Palpy getting to show off physical prowess in ROTS for this very reason., It makes ROTJ an even weaker story than it already was and makes Palpy's end seem so...weak. He was fine with the old force lightning toast job if we accept him as a master at the center of the web, a schemer and manipulator NOT a fighter. That was what Anakin should have been and why his other pupils were physically powerful to offset his relative weakness.

Any reasons that you can give and please, please, let's not resort to that old warhorse of arrogance. It explains WAY too much away about the empire. and it gets pretty empty after awhile.

You can use anything that's in the trailers and teasers as evidence but let's try not to say "Well as we all know in scene 47 the Emperor loses a majority of his Force powers when Yoda tries to give him a Force lobotomy and fails."

[Elfdart]

I always assumed Vader crunched his spine with his bionic arm when he picked him up. Sidious' arms remained in the same position when Vader carried him across the room. Vader's grip rendered him unable to move, though Sidious did zap him before getting bodyslammed.

[Stofsk]

Any reasons that you can give and please, please, let's not resort to that old warhorse of arrogance. It explains WAY too much away about the empire. and it gets pretty empty after awhile.

Vader surprised him. Palpatine's attention was not on him, Vader turned back into Anakin, and then threw him over the railing to his death. Palpatine defeating Mace and Yoda doesn't mean squat because there Palpatine had the initiative.

You can be Bruce Lee in hand to hand skills, Kasparov in Chess-like strategic skills, Machiavelli in politicking skills, but if someone stabs in the back and it was completely unexpected... just what the fuck are you gonna do? Not much except die.

There may be something in ROTS that clues us in to the Emperor's eventual downfall. A possibility I find compelling is Obi-wan and Yoda's force ghost thing having an effect on that crucial outcome - isn't it strange that in ROTJ the Emperor's precog wasn't operating 100%? Vader could feel his son on Endor... but the Emperor couldn't? Palpy could sense victory over the Rebel Fleet... yet that never happens? Palpy is assured that Vader won't turn on him... even though he's electrocuting his son before his eyes? Remember what Vader said to Luke at the end of ESB? "You can destroy the Emperor, he has forseen it!" THAT wasn't true either. Very convenient, and it makes Obi-wan's final line to Vader in ANH into perspective.

Or it could simply be a thematic quality (non-SoD, but whatev) in the storytelling- evil defeats evil. The way of the Sith is one of treachery, never trusting other Sith, because eventually they'll betray you. In ROTS we will see Palpatine betray Tyranus, and Anakin take his place. In ESB we saw Vader plead to Luke to join him so that they can destroy the Emperor. In ROTJ, Vader betrays the Emperor. In the same film, we see Palpy try to get Luke as his apprentice, the implication being that Vader had outlived his usefulness. 'Sith Betrayal' is a theme we see repeated throughout the films.

Going down like a punk is an odd criticism to make against ROTJ. We can't all go down gloriously. Hell, who did? Obi-wan also 'went down like a punk'. Yoda died in bed - the fate of a supposed 'great warrior'? A lot of the Rogues in ESB were just shot down. Same goes for the Red and Gold squadron pilots in ANH. Darth Maul went 'down like a bitch' too. As did Qui-gon. How exactly are you supposed to die? The only person who's death could be seen as impressive was Tarkin's. We can't all die riding a tremendous shockwave, which is perhaps fortunate.

[PainRack]

The will of the Force?

Just as the Force has been darkend for the Jedi, preventing their use of Force precog, the Force may have been similarly weakened to Palpatine when it prevented insight into his own death.

[Stravo]

The will of the Force?

Just as the Force has been darkend for the Jedi, preventing their use of Force precog, the Force may have been similarly weakened to Palpatine when it prevented insight into his own death.

That's not a bad one at all. Fits in with big overall themes about the Force cleaning house by 'allowing' the Sith to take out the Jedi and then Anakin fulfills the role it required of him by bringing balance to the Force.

[Galvatron]

Sloppy storytelling.

[Pablo Sanchez]

It might have something to do with the passage of time between ROTS and ROTJ. He serves in the high-stress-position of sole autocrat of the galaxy for 20 years. He was white-haired and wrinkly in TPM, almost 40 years before Endor. Moreover, indications are that his copious use of the dark side accelerated his decay tremendously. He's just too old for that shit.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Palpatine's physical form had degraded considerably since the events of ROTS.

He is superficially scared and deformed even in ROTS, but his body looks much more vital and strong. Palpatine appears heavier and broader. He seems much thinner, older, and more decrepit by ROTJ. In the twenty-two years from ROTS to ROTJ, Palpatine's power in the Force and knowledge of the Dark Side increased dramatically, not to mention the scale of his use of it. Also, Palpatine was more removed from the living aspects of the Force when he was forced to discard his damaged and increasingly deteriorating original body in favor of manufactured clone ones, which deteoriated much more quickly than the original, even without the initiating damage he recieves in ROTS.

[Praxis]

There may be something in ROTS that clues us in to the Emperor's eventual downfall. A possibility I find compelling is Obi-wan and Yoda's force ghost thing having an effect on that crucial outcome - isn't it strange that in ROTJ the Emperor's precog wasn't operating 100%? Vader could feel his son on Endor... but the Emperor couldn't? Palpy could sense victory over the Rebel Fleet... yet that never happens? Palpy is assured that Vader won't turn on him... even though he's electrocuting his son before his eyes? Remember what Vader said to Luke at the end of ESB? "You can destroy the Emperor, he has forseen it!" THAT wasn't true either. Very convenient, and it makes Obi-wan's final line to Vader in ANH into perspective.

A Dark Jedi amidst all the Light-side Jedi mucks with their senses. Why can't a Light-side Jedi amidst Dark do the same?

[Vympel]

Why was Anakin able to simply lift him, carry him a few meters and fling him down the shaft witthou this uber fast Sith Lord WITH precog reacting or at least slipping out of Vader's grip. I mean for fuck's sake he was able to scream Anakin several times before taking the old plunge.

Huh? Palpatine didn't scream "Anakin" before taking the plunge. That makes no sense- he had been Lord Vader for over 20 years at that point. The entire time from Vader lifting him up to hurling him was a few seconds- also as far as pre-cognition goes, in between force users it is nowhere near as effective. Half the fight is trying to overcome the other guys power in the force so you can actually land a blow. Darth Maul certainly wasn't able to figure out what Obi-Wan was doing before he died- all he really knew was that something was about to go wrong.

As for why Palpatine didn't just skewer Luke with a lightsabre- he didn't have to. Luke didn't have anywhere near the training of a Jedi Council Member, let alone four of them at once- not three, btw. He couldn't resist his force lightning and Palpatine wanted to show off the power of the Dark Side before Luke died. "Only now, at the end, do you understand."

As far as weakening ROTJ- I always took it as a given that Episode III would show Palpatine fight, because otherwise every dickhead and his dog would be claiming plotholes arguing "why didn't Yoda just kick his arse."

[Stofsk]

A Dark Jedi amidst all the Light-side Jedi mucks with their senses. Why can't a Light-side Jedi amidst Dark do the same?

That's why I was thinking there is some special significance in the force ghost thing.

And I always assumed Palpy was doing some bad sith juju to the Jedi in AOTC, as opposed to the Jedi simply being weakened somehow for no cause.

[Burak Gazan]

Palpatine foresaw that Skywalker would destroy him -- he just dismissed the possibility that Lord Vader would return to his true self as Anakin Skywalker, the chosen one, and kill his ass dead

As for nerfed, Palpatine is so far above Luke in sheer raw power, he probably didn't feel the need to dice him into small pieces -- rather, kill him in the most prolonged, painful way he could.

** I realize III coming after VI makes some details muddled, but damn, Master Yoda could really have given a little more briefing on ole Palpy's abilities

[Stofsk]

** I realize III coming after VI makes some details muddled, but damn, Master Yoda could really have given a little more briefing on ole Palpy's abilities

How do we know he didn't? Yoda tells Luke "Already you know that which you require." We do know the training he received on Dagobah was more than we saw.

He then warns Luke about "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor, or follow your father's fate you will." Well geewhiz, what did Luke end up doing? Luke knew enough to at least attempt to deflect the energy, he just wasn't talented enough. Or experienced enough.

[Praxis]

A Dark Jedi amidst all the Light-side Jedi mucks with their senses. Why can't a Light-side Jedi amidst Dark do the same?

That's why I was thinking there is some special significance in the force ghost thing.

And I always assumed Palpy was doing some bad sith juju to the Jedi in AOTC, as opposed to the Jedi simply being weakened somehow for no cause.

It seems to me that it could be looking at something far away.

If there is a lot of light (lots of lightside jedi) you can see very far.

If there is a cloud in the way, it gets blurry.

This seems validated by NJO, where the collection of a large number of Jedi at one place actually boosted their force senses collectively.

[Tychu]

I believe its the whole Anakin will bring balance to the force

even though the Jedi dont know what that means exactly i believe I and others on this board believe it has to do balancing the light and dark force users. In Episode 3 to balance the force alot of Jedi needed to Die and Anakin was there to make that balance, than when Jedi after Jedi fell the Sith started to tip the balance and Palpatine was getting to powerful and then Anakin once again had to balance out the force. I mean Palpys powers started to fail when he started to convert Luke, making it Sith 3 Jedi 1ish (Yoda and Ben where still somewhere as something)

[Lone_Prodigy]

My take on it is a combination of Elfdart and Stofsk's spirit idea. Obi-Wan and Yoda dulled Palpatine's senses enough for Vader to close in without Palpatine sensing it, and once he had a hand firmly crunching Palpy's spine in half he was able to chuck Palpy down the shaft successfully. Honestly, the whole scene rates among my favorite scenes among all sci-fi– with "Luke, I am your father." tying with it for the top.

[Lord Revan]

I think Palpatine wasn't expecting Anakin Skywalker to betray and defeat him. And for Anakin sensing Luke And Palpatine not, it could that there's bond between Anakin and Luke, while there's none between Palaptine and Luke.

[VT-16]

Sloppy storytelling.

No, it´s actually good storytelling. You see, in ROTS....

Oh yeah, some people don´t want to hear spoilers. Too bad, because they deal thematically with part of the reason why Palpatine goes down. Let´s just say it´s one of those "mirror"-themes that Lucas likes to add, and it has to do with what Anakin/Palpatine percieves to be true... A bit like the witch-king in ROTK, actually....

[Imperial Overlord]

Having just scene that confrontation again earlier today, Palpatine doesn't need his lightsaber to take down Luke. He is concentrating totally on Luke and he's completely in control. He's killing Luke in a slow and painful manner and he's enjoying every moment of it. He's gloating and revelling in his power. And then Vader completely blindsides him. He's not paying attention and he's already lost by the time he switches gears and starts to do anything about it.

[NecronLord]

In the trailer we pretty much get a very good glimpse of what will happen when Palpy is confronted. It certainly looks like he is spry, fast, physically powerful and definately wields a lightsaber.

Thirty or so years earlier. Say he's sixty then. By the time of RotJ he'd be ninety...

It looks like he takes on three Jedi at once, including Mace Windu considered one of the best Jedi duelist in the order, and I assume either defeats them or kills them. He definately takes on Yoda (once again all from the trailer) and resorts to flinging multi ton senatorial floaters at Yoda and hits him with force lightning.

I think it's four of them.

Why then did he go down like a punk bitch in ROTJ?

When Luke flings away his lightsaber and Palpy says "So be it Jedi" why was the next scene not Palpy charging inbto Luke with an animal like growl like he did to Windu and kill him with one swift stroke?

I don't know if the growl was actually from palpy, or a voiceover from another scene. Perhaps he decided that there was no reason to take his saber aboard the Death Star.

Why was Anakin able to simply lift him, carry him a few meters and fling him down the shaft witthou this uber fast Sith Lord WITH precog

It doesn't work nearly as well as he thinks it does.

reacting or at least slipping out of Vader's grip.

He mortally wounded Vader with the force. I'd call that a reaction. He just wasn't powerful enough to kill Darth fuggin Vader in three seconds.

I mean for fuck's sake he was able to scream Anakin several times before taking the old plunge.

What what what? I've never heard this.

Was it age? If we accept Dark Empire this is a man that can summon Force storms that can tear apart planets and fleets. Age didn't slow him down for that.

According to Lucas, the RotS fight with Yoda will show the full extent of Palpatine's power. As, at least from the trailer, there are no gigatons being thrown around there, I think we can take this as a decanonisation of Wankatine. So basically, these powers don't exist. They most certainly don't exist in Lucas' mind, or he would have actually shown them.

More to the point, in that nonesense he is in a new, young body. Age is undone.

[Sharp-kun]

When Luke flings away his lightsaber and Palpy says "So be it Jedi" why was the next scene not Palpy charging inbto Luke with an animal like growl like he did to Windu and kill him with one swift stroke?

Its not as painful. Palps wanted Luke to suffer.

[Vympel]

According to Lucas, the RotS fight with Yoda will show the full extent of Palpatine's power. As, at least from the trailer, there are no gigatons being thrown around there, I think we can take this as a decanonisation of Wankatine. So basically, these powers don't exist. They most certainly don't exist in Lucas' mind, or he would have actually shown them.

More to the point, in that nonesense he is in a new, young body. Age is undone.

Why would Palpatine use a force storm when fighting a single Jedi Master? He can take on four at once with just a lightsabre, why should one more present him with a problem that would destroy the whole Senate chamber? That's not a contradiction.

Also, since age is undone, whats the problem?

[Trytostaydead]

In regards to Luke Skywalker, I'm fairly sure Palpatine could've quickly killed the boy, but he was torturing him: either as a last ditch effort to try to force him to the darkside or merely showing him the futility of struggling and taking out his sadistic pleasure on the "last remaining Jedi."

I think Palpatine was taken out like a punk because he had FORSEEN EVERYTHING. Everything was going exactly as he planned which probably lends credence to my original theory as well. More than likely his visions have always been correct and the Dark Side had guided him well over the years, but at the end I have to agree, it was the will of the force. The Force betrayed him at the end.

[Spartan]

NecronLord wrote:
According to Lucas, the RotS fight with Yoda will show the full extent of Palpatine's power. As, at least from the trailer, there are no gigatons being thrown around there, I think we can take this as a decanonisation of Wankatine. So basically, these powers don't exist. They most certainly don't exist in Lucas' mind, or he would have actually shown them.

More to the point, in that nonesense he is in a new, young body. Age is undone.

It would be better if they officially retocon those to just be insane clones. There is little evidence other that this...

Spoiler:

In ROTS Qui-gon tells yoda that a Sith can never join with the force and become imortal...as the pathway to imortallity is through compassion.

Really I guess it depends on what you mean by imortal. After all Exar Kun existed in a concious state for nearly 4,000 years; but he was still eventually killed.

In Empires end the Dark Lords of Korriban, told Palps that it was time for him to join them in the madness beyond death...sound like the SW version of Hell.

Bottom line if you take that tact, you have to throw out huge portion of the EU. Which is unacceptable, so you must come up with a SOD way of reconciling the to.

Why would Palpatine use a force storm when fighting a single Jedi Master? He can take on four at once with just a lightsabre, why should one more present him with a problem that would destroy the whole Senate chamber? That's not a contradiction.

Your right ofcourse no need to be tossing around gigatons of energy, to kill one man.

Take note however that Palpatine only does those things in Dark Empire after absorbing the life energy on Byss's citizen for over 5 years.

[Illuminatus Primus]

According to Lucas, the RotS fight with Yoda will show the full extent of Palpatine's power. As, at least from the trailer, there are no gigatons being thrown around there, I think we can take this as a decanonisation of Wankatine. So basically, these powers don't exist. They most certainly don't exist in Lucas' mind, or he would have actually shown them.

You cannot use his power in ROTS as a limiting factor in his abilities thirty years in the future. Not to mention, as has been emphasized emphatically before, GL's out-of-universe comments have no significant within the context of SoD analysis. Not to mention calling in a Force Storm (which the continuity itself awknowledges he didn't know how to do until after ROTJ) would be totally useless in the scenes of ROTS where Palpatine fights.

I really think its sad when people use Trekkie debating tactics - using unadmissable evidence, using examples without awknowledging other factors because you some piece of the continuity does not meet your aesthetic tastes.

More to the point, in that nonesense he is in a new, young body. Age is undone.

What are you trying to say with this sentence?