Vong vs Species8572

[Imperial Overlord]

Wasn't 8472 is total genocide mode at that time? They were aiming to wipe out all life in the Milky Way. We don't need to speculate on why they attacked Voyager. They were trying to destroy her (pity they failed).

[Robert Walper]

Wasn't 8472 is total genocide mode at that time? They were aiming to wipe out all life in the Milky Way. We don't need to speculate on why they attacked Voyager. They were trying to destroy her (pity they failed).

Species 8472's motives became clear further along in the episode. The fact the bioship didn't bother pursuing Voyager suggests their current objective didn't require them to expend significant effort chasing or destroying every little small fry that came along.

I'm attempting to propose theories why Voyager survived a direct hit by a bioship weapon we know can destroy an entire Borg cube in as little as two hits. The remaining explanation (that Voyager's shielding is on par with a Borg cube) is, frankly, unacceptable.

[Hawkwings]

maybe "shield frequencies" solves that problem, though it's unlikely. I mean, shouldn't the borg, who have already had ships destroyed and presumably "adapted" to the weapons, have the best "shield frequency" to defend against?

and lol, when I first saw this thread I thought it said "Wong vs Species 8472". *That* would be a pretty nasty battle.

[SirNitram]

Wasn't 8472 is total genocide mode at that time? They were aiming to wipe out all life in the Milky Way. We don't need to speculate on why they attacked Voyager. They were trying to destroy her (pity they failed).

Species 8472's motives became clear further along in the episode. The fact the bioship didn't bother pursuing Voyager suggests their current objective didn't require them to expend significant effort chasing or destroying every little small fry that came along.

I'm attempting to propose theories why Voyager survived a direct hit by a bioship weapon we know can destroy an entire Borg cube in as little as two hits. The remaining explanation (that Voyager's shielding is on par with a Borg cube) is, frankly, unacceptable.

Why is it unacceptable? We've seen how effective Borg shields are to weapons they cannot or have not adapted to(Q Who), and it's pathetic even compared to Fed ships.

[SirNitram]

maybe "shield frequencies" solves that problem, though it's unlikely. I mean, shouldn't the borg, who have already had ships destroyed and presumably "adapted" to the weapons, have the best "shield frequency" to defend against?

This presupposes any frequency is 'best'. Borg adaptation is all about finding the frequency your opponent uses(Or the pattern of frequencies), and getting a shield set up to match it, then invert it. Think of the noise-cancelling technology in some headphones: The shields 'blank out' the incoming shots. There is an upper-limit to this, seen in First Contact: Enough shots will batter it down. But it's devastating.. Against frequency-using weapons you have intel on.

S8472 does not use frequency-dependent weapons, and thus is nigh-unstoppable to the Borg's narrow-minded defenses. Voyager's shields are still frequency based, but not specific to block any one, as a Borg ship is. Remember: A Borg Cube needs to analyze a weapon before it can adapt(Q Who?), and if it can't adapt..

and lol, when I first saw this thread I thought it said "Wong vs Species 8472". *That* would be a pretty nasty battle.

Fear the tool, and keep it ridgid.

[Robert Walper]

I'm attempting to propose theories why Voyager survived a direct hit by a bioship weapon we know can destroy an entire Borg cube in as little as two hits. The remaining explanation (that Voyager's shielding is on par with a Borg cube) is, frankly, unacceptable.

Why is it unacceptable? We've seen how effective Borg shields are to weapons they cannot or have not adapted to(Q Who), and it's pathetic even compared to Fed ships.

So you believe it's reasonable to suggest Voyager's shielding strength is on par with a Borg cube? That Voyager could invade the Federation and it's best defenses would be unable to stop her?

[SirNitram]

Why is it unacceptable? We've seen how effective Borg shields are to weapons they cannot or have not adapted to(Q Who), and it's pathetic even compared to Fed ships.

So you believe it's reasonable to suggest Voyager's shielding strength is on par with a Borg cube? That Voyager could invade the Federation and it's best defenses would be unable to stop her?

Read what I actually wrote, you trolling fucking liar.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Just another thought:
- IIRC the S8472 fire was just hitting the Voyager for a split second.
- Wasn't Voyager heavily optimized by Seven of Nine for combatting S8472?

But still, just because S8472 firepower fucked up the cubes, it doesn't mean they can stand up against the Vong. For all that matters, Slave One can fuck those cubes as well. Hasn't SW fighters vs ST capship debate done to the death before?

[Robert Walper]

Why is it unacceptable? We've seen how effective Borg shields are to weapons they cannot or have not adapted to(Q Who), and it's pathetic even compared to Fed ships.

So you believe it's reasonable to suggest Voyager's shielding strength is on par with a Borg cube? That Voyager could invade the Federation and it's best defenses would be unable to stop her?

Read what I actually wrote, you trolling fucking liar.

You first fucktard. I said the explanation of Voyager's shielding being on par with a Borg cube is unacceptable. You retorted "why is that unacceptable?", implying that Voyager's shielding can be on par with that of a Borg cube. Or is simple English beyond your feeble grasp?

[Robert Walper]

Just another thought:
- IIRC the S8472 fire was just hitting the Voyager for a split second.

The shot was an extremely short duration as I recall, while the ones against Borg cubes were much longer.

- Wasn't Voyager heavily optimized by Seven of Nine for combatting S8472?

Not during the incident in question. Seven hadn't even been introduced to Voyager yet.

But still, just because S8472 firepower fucked up the cubes, it doesn't mean they can stand up against the Vong. For all that matters, Slave One can fuck those cubes as well. Hasn't SW fighters vs ST capship debate done to the death before?

Well, I'm not arguing Species 8472 victory either...

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

So you believe it's reasonable to suggest Voyager's shielding strength is on par with a Borg cube? That Voyager could invade the Federation and it's best defenses would be unable to stop her?

Read what I actually wrote, you trolling fucking liar.

You first fucktard. I said the explanation of Voyager's shielding being on par with a Borg cube is unacceptable. You retorted "why is that unacceptable?", implying that Voyager's shielding can be on par with that of a Borg cube. Or is simple English beyond your feeble grasp?

Not necesarilly, Robert. "why is that unacceptable" can simply mean that unadapting Borg shield is probably as pathetic, if not worse, than Federation shielding.

[Robert Walper]

Not necesarilly, Robert. "why is that unacceptable" can simply mean that unadapting Borg shield is probably as pathetic, if not worse, than Federation shielding.

Clarification is necessary here. "Unadapting" Borg shielding? What is that exactly? Borg shielding is by definition adaptation dependent.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Just another thought:
- IIRC the S8472 fire was just hitting the Voyager for a split second.

The shot was an extremely short duration as I recall, while the ones against Borg cubes were much longer.

So probably it explains why Voyager survive the shot. At least it's a simpler explanation than arguing whether the S8472 was toning down their firepower at that time or whether Voyager shield is as strong as a Borg cube.

As for the question itself, I guess the answer is pretty simple: Voy shield is weaker than adapting cube shields, but still stronger than unadapting shield. Not only it happened on a cube, but drones as well. Now I have a bad feelings about this discussion would continue to whether the Borg can or cannot adapt against S8472 weapons.....

- Wasn't Voyager heavily optimized by Seven of Nine for combatting S8472?

Not during the incident in question. Seven hadn't even been introduced to Voyager yet.

I see, but still the shot was much shorter than the ones hitting Borg cubes.

IIRC Voyager was optimized for later encounters, after they meet SoN.

But still, just because S8472 firepower fucked up the cubes, it doesn't mean they can stand up against the Vong. For all that matters, Slave One can fuck those cubes as well. Hasn't SW fighters vs ST capship debate done to the death before?

Well, I'm not arguing Species 8472 victory either...

Funny thing about SW vs ST discussion these days is the winner in the big picture is already clear, so I guess it goes to small details about how weak the Trek actually is

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Not necesarilly, Robert. "why is that unacceptable" can simply mean that unadapting Borg shield is probably as pathetic, if not worse, than Federation shielding.

Clarification is necessary here. "Unadapting" Borg shielding? What is that exactly?

Nitram was referring to Q-Who where Borg shields were pretty ineffective against weapons they cannot or have not adapted to.

is by definition adaptation dependent.

But that's the point. While Borg shield is adaptation dependent (which cost them dearly against weapons they're unable to adapt to), Voyager shield ain't. Borg shield does better against threat they can adapt to, but doesn't do shit against something they cannot or haven't adapted. That's the good and bad for having such shield, I guess.

And still, Voyager was only hit for split second. Much shorter duration than the cubes.

There are simple explanations why Voyager survived while the cubes didn't, and not necessarily indicative of how strong S8472 firepower actually is.

[Robert Walper]

The shot was an extremely short duration as I recall, while the ones against Borg cubes were much longer.

So probably it explains why Voyager survive the shot. At least it's a simpler explanation than arguing whether the S8472 was toning down their firepower at that time or whether Voyager shield is as strong as a Borg cube.

I think it's absurd to suggest Species 8472 weapons must fire at the same level of power regardless of target size, composition, threat level, intented effect, etc.

As for the question itself, I guess the answer is pretty simple: Voy shield is weaker than adapting cube shields, but still stronger than unadapting shield.

Since Borg shielding seems virtually non existent until they've adapted, that's like saying Voyager shielding is better than no shielding at all. Which is really a big "duh".

Not only it happened on a cube, but drones as well. Now I have a bad feelings about this discussion would continue to whether the Borg can or cannot adapt against S8472 weapons.....

Well, save that discussionm for another thread.

Not during the incident in question. Seven hadn't even been introduced to Voyager yet.

I see, but still the shot was much shorter than the ones hitting Borg cubes.

True, which by definition would mean lesser in power, even if we go by the (ridiculas IMO) assumption Species 8472 bioships fire at full power at all times.

IIRC Voyager was optimized for later encounters, after they meet SoN.

Yeah, Voyager was heavily modified with Borg shielding and technology for their planned encounters with Species 8472.

Well, I'm not arguing Species 8472 victory either...

Funny thing about SW vs ST discussion these days is the winner in the big picture is already clear, so I guess it goes to small details about how weak the Trek actually is

Meh....true enough. It's all relative though.

[Robert Walper]

Clarification is necessary here. "Unadapting" Borg shielding? What is that exactly?

Nitram was referring to Q-Who where Borg shields were pretty ineffective against weapons they cannot or have not adapted to.

Well, the very nature of the Borg suggests they don't deploy any type of shielding until they're analysed the weapon attacking them and then optimizing their shielding to get the absolute best performance/defense out of it. Given the sheer size of their craft, lack of concern for losses and ability to regenerate damage, it seems like a very good trade off to me.

But that's the point. While Borg shield is adaptation dependent (which cost them dearly against weapons they're unable to adapt to), Voyager shield ain't.

Federation shielding has several setbacks, including vulnerablities to unknown threats that pass right through them, and losing shield strength quickly in a fight. Given the only example of Borg adaptation failing was against ships with enough firepower to destroy an entire planet in a group as small at eight, I subscribe to the "overwhelming firepower" theory.

Borg shield does better against threat they can adapt to, but doesn't do shit against something they cannot or haven't adapted. That's the good and bad for having such shield, I guess.

Borg shielding is superior to Federation shielding on that basis. Mike has made several points about how the Federation and some other similar type organizations have shield vulnerabilities they don't seem to be able to correct any time soon.

And still, Voyager was only hit for split second. Much shorter duration than the cubes.

There are simple explanations why Voyager survived while the cubes didn't, and not necessarily indicative of how strong S8472 firepower actually is.

I'd still dispute the assertion Species 8472 bioships must fire at maximum power at all times. That's ridiculas.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

The shot was an extremely short duration as I recall, while the ones against Borg cubes were much longer.

So probably it explains why Voyager survive the shot. At least it's a simpler explanation than arguing whether the S8472 was toning down their firepower at that time or whether Voyager shield is as strong as a Borg cube.

I think it's absurd to suggest Species 8472 weapons must fire at the same level of power regardless of target size, composition, threat level, intented effect, etc.

Considering Voyager is an unknown factor, they would be stupid to reduce their firepower.

Since Borg shielding seems virtually non existent until they've adapted, that's like saying Voyager shielding is better than no shielding at all. Which is really a big "duh".

That's basically Nitram's point. Voyager shield is better than no shield at all.

Well, save that discussionm for another thread.

Nah, not me. When it goes to Borg nanodetails, I'm simply out of my league.

True, which by definition would mean lesser in power, even if we go by the (ridiculas IMO) assumption Species 8472 bioships fire at full power at all times.

Not really ridiculous. Voyager is an unknown threat. Mike has brought up this point several posts ago. It's suicidely stupid enough to to reduce your firepower for no reason, let alone against a threat with still unknown capability.

In fact, if I were S8472, I would even maximize my firepower against an enemy I know nothing of. If the enemy is destroyed, my luck. Otherwise I'm surely out of my league and escaping is the best way to save my ass.

In a war, it would be stupid to underestimate an unknown enemy and toning down your firepower respectively.

Meh....true enough. It's all relative though.

Now since it's 3 am and I have to go to work tommorrow, this would be my last post before we start to appear cocksucking each other due to the sudden changes of the debating tone.

Have a very nice day,
- fgalk... KAN

[SirNitram]

So you believe it's reasonable to suggest Voyager's shielding strength is on par with a Borg cube? That Voyager could invade the Federation and it's best defenses would be unable to stop her?

Read what I actually wrote, you trolling fucking liar.

You first fucktard. I said the explanation of Voyager's shielding being on par with a Borg cube is unacceptable. You retorted "why is that unacceptable?", implying that Voyager's shielding can be on par with that of a Borg cube. Or is simple English beyond your feeble grasp?

Fucking lying troll. You purposefully ignore what was said to quantify that statement. I'll repeat it bolded since you're not fucking literate.

We've seen how effective Borg shields are to weapons they cannot or have not adapted to(Q Who), and it's pathetic even compared to Fed ships.

Or haven't you seen that, troll, where a Cube's vaunted shielding doesn't even stop a phaser beam from punching through the Cube, since it isn't adapted? That's pretty pathetic as Voyager will at least stop a few shots.

[brianeyci]

I thought an explaination for the huge holes in Q Who is not that the Borg have not adapted, but because their shields were not up in the first place. The evidence for this is that the Enterprise away team beams onto the Borg ship later. The Borg do not appear to raise their shields until the chase starts. Later in Best of Both Worlds, they need to use a shuttle to breech the perimeter of Borg shielding to beam in. Unless you think they beamed through the Borg shielding -- this is not an easy feat. Every time there is an explicit "beaming through shields" like in TNG The Wounded, there is usually an associated danger of failure. No such chance of failure was mentioned. Besides, Worf was surprised that the drone beamed through the Enterprise's shields, probably taking advantage of frequency. The Federation has no such technology to detect the frequency of enemy shields to beam through.

Brian

[Robert Walper]

You first fucktard. I said the explanation of Voyager's shielding being on par with a Borg cube is unacceptable. You retorted "why is that unacceptable?", implying that Voyager's shielding can be on par with that of a Borg cube. Or is simple English beyond your feeble grasp?

Fucking lying troll. You purposefully ignore what was said to quantify that statement. I'll repeat it bolded since you're not fucking literate.

We've seen how effective Borg shields are to weapons they cannot or have not adapted to(Q Who), and it's pathetic even compared to Fed ships.

"Fed shields are better than when the Borg don't have their shields up". Your brilliant deduction is awe inspiring.

Or haven't you seen that, troll, where a Cube's vaunted shielding doesn't even stop a phaser beam from punching through the Cube, since it isn't adapted? That's pretty pathetic as Voyager will at least stop a few shots.

Stating the obvious doesn't win you any points Nitram. Take your childish and retarded "troll hunting" somewhere else.

[brianeyci]

Also I am not so convinced by the "capture" argument. We use the capture argument in for example ANH and ROTJ, because there was an explicit order/dialogue indicating so. Why the hell would Species 8472 want to capture Voyager, when their stated purpose would be to exterminate all life?

There is some superficial support for the capture theory though. Later we see Species 8472 emulating Starfleet Academy. Supposedly they study their opponents well before attacking then.

Although, there is not enough evidence either way. Either Voyager has some strength that a cube does not, or Species 8472 was trying to capture Voyager. It is a moot point in the discussion anyway. Whenever we talk about shielding, we never say "my buble shield is superior to yours", we only compare magnitude. If a sphere can take the alpha strike of 30 Federation ships, then a cube is at least as powerful and we can compare directly with canonical figures for Vong firepower by assuming that S. 8472 can unleash that much firepower at once I don't know why there is so much controversy. Low single-digit GT figures for S. 8472 at best, and if a Vong can take out SW ships high GT figures in the hundreds for them at least. They win.

Brian

[SirNitram]

You first fucktard. I said the explanation of Voyager's shielding being on par with a Borg cube is unacceptable. You retorted "why is that unacceptable?", implying that Voyager's shielding can be on par with that of a Borg cube. Or is simple English beyond your feeble grasp?

Fucking lying troll. You purposefully ignore what was said to quantify that statement. I'll repeat it bolded since you're not fucking literate.

We've seen how effective Borg shields are to weapons they cannot or have not adapted to(Q Who), and it's pathetic even compared to Fed ships.

"Fed shields are better than when the Borg don't have their shields up". Your brilliant deduction is awe inspiring.

I await an ounce of evidence it's shields were not operating, Walper. I suspect, however, I will waiting a long time.

Or haven't you seen that, troll, where a Cube's vaunted shielding doesn't even stop a phaser beam from punching through the Cube, since it isn't adapted? That's pretty pathetic as Voyager will at least stop a few shots.

Stating the obvious doesn't win you any points Nitram. Take your childish and retarded "troll hunting" somewhere else.

'Wah, wah, the big bad man is pointing out I can't fucking read! That's not fair!!!' Go fuck yourself, kiddie. I'm not going to invent excuses to make the Borg stronger than observed just to satisfy your fetish. Show evidence or concede.

[Robert Walper]

I thought an explaination for the huge holes in Q Who is not that the Borg have not adapted, but because their shields were not up in the first place.

I thought it was commonly understood the Borg allow the enemy to fire first, after which they engage their shielding and optimize it for the best defensive results.

The evidence for this is that the Enterprise away team beams onto the Borg ship later. The Borg do not appear to raise their shields until the chase starts. Later in Best of Both Worlds, they need to use a shuttle to breech the perimeter of Borg shielding to beam in. Unless you think they beamed through the Borg shielding -- this is not an easy feat. Every time there is an explicit "beaming through shields" like in TNG The Wounded, there is usually an associated danger of failure. No such chance of failure was mentioned. Besides, Worf was surprised that the drone beamed through the Enterprise's shields, probably taking advantage of frequency. The Federation has no such technology to detect the frequency of enemy shields to beam through.

It seems pretty obvious the Borg prefer to take some damage first, after which they can make themselves virtually impervious to further attacks (typically). This system is superior to Federation shielding which "usually" stops attacks, but fails after a few shots anyhow.

[Batman]

Well, the very nature of the Borg suggests they don't deploy any type of shielding until they're analysed the weapon attacking them and then optimizing their shielding to get the absolute best performance/defense out of it

Which since we have no reason to assume they can adapt to S8472 weapons at all means they will NEVER raise shields

Given the only example of Borg adaptation failing was against ships with enough firepower to destroy an entire planet in a group as small at eight, I subscribe to the "overwhelming firepower" theory.

Thanks to the firepower required for this being completely indeterminable thanks to this not being a DET event I submit that since there's countless examples for Trek shields being worked around AND for the Borg being abysmally stupid I submit it's either one or possibly a combination of both.

[brianeyci]

I await an ounce of evidence it's shields were not operating,

Go above to my post. Enterprise beamed onto the Borg cube, while in BOBW they needed a shuttle to breech the perimeter of the cube's shields to beam in. It is reasonable to assume the cube's shields were down or else there would have been at least a mention of beaming through shields, always a hazardous tactic.

Brian