What is exactly so bad with Episode I and II?

[Galvatron]

Why was it needed? Why not establish Anakin as the dashing hero right from the outset?

There needed to be some kind of origin to bring Anakin into the story, rather than just starting his story midway through the development of his character.

I agree, but Anakin could have just as easily been introduced as a hotshot fighter ace in the Republic military whose power gets discovered by General Kenobi during the course of their first adventure together in Episode I. The story didn't require that he be discovered as a little kid by some hapless Jedi master and his future wife on Tatooine.

[Joe]

Why was it needed? Why not establish Anakin as the dashing hero right from the outset?

I'm not particularly interested in a hero without an origin, and I don't imagine many other people are either. Why do you think the most popular superheroes all have clearly-established, well-known origin stories? Simply presenting us with a 20-year old Anakin Skywalker and painting "hero" over him would not have worked. There needs to be something invested in the character.

I agree, but Anakin could have just as easily been introduced as a hotshot fighter ace in the Republic military whose power gets discovered by General Kenobi during the course of their first adventure together in Episode I. The story didn't require that he be discovered as a little kid by some hapless Jedi master and his future wife on Tatooine.

That would beg the question of how the Jedi managed to miss a highly-force sensitive individual in the Republic for so long.

[Galvatron]

I'm not particularly interested in a hero without an origin, and I don't imagine many other people are either. Why do you think the most popular superheroes all have clearly-established, well-known origin stories? Simply presenting us with a 20-year old Anakin Skywalker and painting "hero" over him would not have worked. There needs to be something invested in the character.

Did you notice the clever use of exposition in ANH to achieve this? They didn't have to devote an entire film to Luke's childhood. Or Han's. Yet we accepted them as heroes anyway.

That would beg the question of how the Jedi managed to miss a highly-force sensitive individual in the Republic for so long.

Not necessarily. That whole premise of the Jedi testing everyone for Force sensitivity at birth is a contrivance of the prequels, so I see no reason to remain beholden to it when discussing hypothetical alternate versions of eps 1-3.

[Elfdart]

Looks like some people are forgetting one of the most fundamental rules to storytelling: If you want to show the evils of prostitution, corrupt a virgin -not a whore. Whether we care to admit it or not, most people form their personalities and attitudes before adolescence. That's the reason why in so many societies, 12 and 13-year-olds were expected to take the king's oath, bar mitzvah or whatever other rites. Anakin is discovered when he's still a book of blank pages -THAT'S THE POINT! The story is about the gradual corruption of Anakin Skywalker and the Galactic Republic. To take an adult and have him suddenly change his personality is an example of bad characterization. You might as well have just given him a potion like Dr. Jekyl.

So instead of a Jekyl/ Hyde transformation, we've seen an innocent kid being corrupted bit by bit. Each decision he has made so far has a kind of logic to it. You can see why maybe he's not so fond of the Republic and Jedi, instead of Sidious walking up to him and saying "Here, try out this black cape and red lightsabre.".

Anyone who knocks the acting in the PT needs to look at the "I can't wait to finish up and cash this check!" acting in ROTJ. What's described as bad acting by know-nothings is a case of the characters playing roles and saying things they don't really believe. The only problem I have is that Natalie Portman is way miscast. She looks all of 14, yet she's supposed to be a head of state, and don't get me started on the "sexy" outfits. She looked like a young girl who swiped her older sister's clothes. I thought for a minute Woody Allen was directing.

The problem I have with both prequels is the oversaturation with sound effects. Apparently, every second of the soundtrack has to be filled with beeping droids, chattering aliens and other white noise. I didn't like the editing, either. I saw the IMAX version of Clones and with 20 minutes cut out, it felt more like a Star Wars movie. But I like both prequels a lot more than Return of the Jedi, which reminded me of Diamonds Are Forever, since it was obvious they were just playing out the string.

[Galvatron]

Well, the last time you brought up the virgin/whore thing I think dworkin had the best answer...

The fall of Anakin Skywalker pre-TPM was a good modern legend. He was 'The best starfighter pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. He was a good friend.' The man was supposed to be a paragon of the heroic ideal. We're talking filming Fall of Lucifer type mythology here.

And what do we get instead? - 'Yippee!'.

You can show corrupting evil as a truly gribbly thing if it corrupts the best as well. And it's a better story.

That sums up my feelings perfectly.

Anyone who knocks the acting in the PT needs to look at the "I can't wait to finish up and cash this check!" acting in ROTJ. What's described as bad acting by know-nothings is a case of the characters playing roles and saying things they don't really believe. The only problem I have is that Natalie Portman is way miscast. She looks all of 14, yet she's supposed to be a head of state, and don't get me started on the "sexy" outfits. She looked like a young girl who swiped her older sister's clothes. I thought for a minute Woody Allen was directing.

Now that I can agree with.

Then again, I haven't seen anyone praise the acting in ROTJ lately either. For a lot of people (myself included), that's when the downhill trend all started.

[Cabwi Desco]

I feel I can describe the problems with a chronological order set by scene.

and this is just TPM

opening sequence.
A fleet of Doughnuts-with-bites-out-of-them blockading a planet in a vaguely cloud like formation over a hemisphere.
The introduction of the nemoidans, gawd awful rubbermask/CGI work here. plus they suck as characters, too spineless even for Sci-Fi.
Qui-Gon Gin, Obi-wan was trained by yoda damnit! (I do understand the 'Bear Clan' Excuse)
TC-14, a retarted C-3PO Repaint that played up nothing to the 3PO hypothesis.
entrance of Battle Droids, by gawd, these are the weakest looking battle droids i've ever seen! youd think a rich ass corporation could afford better
The use of a Lightsaber as a massive blowtorch.
Droidekas with BUBBLE SHIELDS!
Amidala... the most emotionless queen EVER!
Sio Bible <- AUGH! dumb diplomat
Captain Panaka. I swear this man has never heard of an underground resistance.
Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon on Naboo and the introduction of JAR JAR....
The rest of the gungans... AUGHGG
Unterwasser... Contrived to be contrived.
'saving the queen' lame and 'all too easy'
stupidity of battle droids, they dont even have Coruscant in their Droid Brains
send out a bunch of R2s to the surface of a ship to repair it, one survives... oh its R2-D2 wasnt expecting that...
Land on Tatooine, tatooine damnit!
Padme's amazing changing voice
Anakin as a Kid, an ANNOYING kid
Watto, the wings and the whole shebang.
Are you an Angel?
C-3PO being built by anakin, its right awful to have Darth Vader be his father too, I much preferred him to be a cybot galactica construct
Skipping ahead to the podrace.
the bad comic relief threading thoughout this whole thing.
first fight with maul and to think that qui-gon only breaks a sweat? bah.
"WHEN I MET YOUR FATHER HE WAS ALREADY A GREAT PILOT!" (pods DONT count)
Coruscant looking very little like I imagined. and the senate looking as corrupt as ours.
Naboo fights, badly coordinated. gungans shouldve been all burned down
Maul was a saving grace for this part. Anakin being a kick ass pilot for five minutes? gawd awful.
The end ceremony was a stroke of stupidity.

AOTC later.

[Darth Wong]

Part of the problem is that the stilted, genteel, emotionally distant, and somewhat postured behaviour and speech patterns of the Old Republic (which are intended to be somewhat reminiscent of the Gilded Age of aristocracy on Earth) is seen as a product of incompetence rather than a deliberate choice. So people rant and rave about how lousy and stilted the acting is. I wonder if these same people walk out of a Shakespeare play saying "who the hell uses all of these thous and thees and forsooths and other horribly wooden speech patterns"?

And before you mock me for comparing Lucas and Shakespeare, let me remind you that Shakespeare's idea of a romance was Romeo and Juliet. Just try reading that fucking piece of tripe someday as if you expected those characters to act like real people.

[Elfdart]

Or for more recent examples, try Mary, Queen of Scots or Elizabeth.

[Elfdart]

snip

Translation: "Lucas didn't make the movie how I wanted! WAAAAAH!"

Don't blame George Lucas for your own false assumptions, inability to think and lack of imagination. For example, if you were convinced Yoda and only Yoda taught Obi-Wan Kenobi to the point that the whole idea that someone else might have trained him later is a shock, you need an imagination transplant.

The whole scene with the younglings was a dig at numbskulls who are so hung up on their own preconceived notions that they miss the obvious when it's sitting right in front of them.

[Cabwi Desco]

snip

Translation: "Lucas didn't make the movie how I wanted! WAAAAAH!"

Don't blame George Lucas for your own false assumptions, inability to think and lack of imagination. For example, if you were convinced Yoda and only Yoda taught Obi-Wan Kenobi to the point that the whole idea that someone else might have trained him later is a shock, you need an imagination transplant.

The whole scene with the younglings was a dig at numbskulls who are so hung up on their own preconceived notions that they miss the obvious when it's sitting right in front of them.

Well quite honestly yeah. and from what I read lots else wanted it different too so dont use me as your example. but it's just all the continuity errors lucas had to cover his ass and go back and fix in the OT that piss me off.

jedi one master one apprentice each
sith one master one apprentice TOTAL

this is how I thought. and as I said I UNDERSTAND THE BEAR CLAN THING, so don't fuck with me on that. and quite honestly flame all you want but thats what I feel. "was I any different when you taught me?"

and yet you don't piss on me for the "fighter pilot" line point i guess no one can argue with that (here it comes, someone arguing it).

rewriting as you go is shitty storytelling. but then again time and time again lucas has shown he cares little or naught for the fans.

[Assassin X]

Asisde from all the tecnical and factual and story crap or whatever that is or isnt right and what not the reason i think i didnt like them:

Their just there. You watch them once and their cool. You watch it again and its ok. The third time you just dont care.

Personally theres just something more "REAL" about the original three. They feel so real, so fun, so gripping. These new ones are so vibrant with colors and crap that to me it looks so artistic that it doesnt feel old and ....star warsish. THe old ones didnt have bright oranges and reds and blues and what not. Everything was a grey and black and maybe some nasty orange or green(jungles).

[Crossroads Inc.]

You know what has me REALLY scared?

JarJar Binks was made not for us, the Real fans ((Obviously)) but for the little kids, from 3 to 8, and you know what? they LOVED JarJar Binks...

So, in 20 years, when were all agin, and mumbeling about how Ep-I and II sucked Ass? All the kids who will be grown up, will be having fond memories of them.. (shivers)
the horror.

[Darth Wong]

You know what has me REALLY scared?

JarJar Binks was made not for us, the Real fans ((Obviously)) but for the little kids, from 3 to 8, and you know what? they LOVED JarJar Binks...

So, in 20 years, when were all agin, and mumbeling about how Ep-I and II sucked Ass? All the kids who will be grown up, will be having fond memories of them.. (shivers)
the horror.

Not all of us have a big problem with that. I have kids of my own, and they liked Episode 1. My younger son loves Episode 1 and 2. His favourite characters are all baddies though; Darth Maul, Jango Fett and the arena monsters.

[Joe]

You know what has me REALLY scared?

JarJar Binks was made not for us, the Real fans ((Obviously)) but for the little kids, from 3 to 8, and you know what? they LOVED JarJar Binks...

So, in 20 years, when were all agin, and mumbeling about how Ep-I and II sucked Ass? All the kids who will be grown up, will be having fond memories of them.. (shivers)
the horror.

I don't know if that will be the case. As far as being a bonafide cultural phenomenon goes, the prequels can't even touch the OT (ANH was huge in a way people who weren't around when it first came out can't really even comprehend). I doubt kids will be remembering the prequels very well if at all in 20 years.

[Darth Wong]

You know what has me REALLY scared?

JarJar Binks was made not for us, the Real fans ((Obviously)) but for the little kids, from 3 to 8, and you know what? they LOVED JarJar Binks...

So, in 20 years, when were all agin, and mumbeling about how Ep-I and II sucked Ass? All the kids who will be grown up, will be having fond memories of them.. (shivers) the horror.

I don't know if that will be the case. As far as being a bonafide cultural phenomenon goes, the prequels can't even touch the OT (ANH was huge in a way people who weren't around when it first came out can't really even comprehend). I doubt kids will be remembering the prequels very well if at all in 20 years.

They won't remember it in the same sense that I remember Star Wars from my childhood because it isn't the same event, and it couldn't be no matter what was on the screen. Part of what made Star Wars such an event was that it revitalized a moribund movie industry that was producing shit like "Saturday Night Fever" and Woody Allen movies. The modern movie industry pumps out swashbuckling blockbusters all the time.

But the cultural icons of Star Wars are indelibly inscribed onto the memories of youth anyway, because of their enduring iconography. For example, the lightsabre still has a special place in every child's heart, because it is just so fucking cool.

[Vympel]

As far as Anakin in Episode I goes- adult fighter pilot is unecessary. A fifteen year old would've been just fine, heck, they could've used Hayden Christensen for that too if they had guarantees he'd be 6'' by the time he was in his twenties.

[SylasGaunt]

Main problems with Episode 1:

Jar Jar Binks.. hell gungans in particular (Is it any wonder that I think the coolest thing Durge did was gas a shitload of them?)

Maul was wasted- This is a general problem I think with the PT in general.. no Vader analogue. In the OT you had a single recurring villain (Vader) with secondaries who put in a shorter appearance. In the PT you've got maul biting it after one line, Dooku doesn't show up until a good ways into AOTC and is pretty well definitely going to bite it sometime in ROTS. Sidious is the only recurring villain but he's a behind the scenes manipulator so we don't get to see him do much direct action like we did with Vader.

Child Anakin- Ugh, I hate Jake Lloyd. Then there's the horribly contrived mess where he manages to fly through a anti-aircraft fire, and a droid control ship's fighter compliment, fly into the landing deck, and destroy the entire ship by accident! "Lets try spinning."

Attack of the Clones I rather enjoyed except for the threepio/B1 head thing, and I felt Christopher Lee was wasted in the film.

[darthnidankendo]

What is everyone's beef with Episode I and II? I happened to enjoy them very much so although I think Ep I was over hyped. Are there unexplainable plot holes or what?

I agree, to me averybody is a freaking crybaby about the whole thing. Lucas finaly made waht we where all waiting for scince we where kids. Just enjoy the movies and when Jar-jar is on screen, one word (fast forward). I love the movies.

[Elfdart]

Well quite honestly yeah. and from what I read lots else wanted it different too so dont use me as your example. but it's just all the continuity errors lucas had to cover his ass and go back and fix in the OT that piss me off.

Care to name any?

jedi one master one apprentice each
sith one master one apprentice TOTAL

So it never occured to you that just as real-life knights were taken from their parents and trained from about age 3, maybe Jedi Knights did the same? It never occured to you that just as in the real world, students are taught by one teacher to start off, then another, then another and so on? If you spent 12 years in the first grade, that's your problem.

this is how I thought. and as I said I UNDERSTAND THE BEAR CLAN THING, so don't fuck with me on that. and quite honestly flame all you want but thats what I feel. "was I any different when you taught me?"

You'll notice he didn't say: "Was I any different when you -and only you- instructed me?"

and yet you don't piss on me for the "fighter pilot" line point i guess no one can argue with that (here it comes, someone arguing it).

Because your points are mostly retarded, such as this one:

"WHEN I MET YOUR FATHER HE WAS ALREADY A GREAT PILOT!" (pods DONT count)

Yes they do.

rewriting as you go is shitty storytelling. but then again time and time again lucas has shown he cares little or naught for the fans.

Fans like you, maybe. But who needs dumbasses who have already made up their minds about what the movie is supposed to be like? If you assumed one thing, but got it wrong, you are the one who fucked up.

[Mange]

You know what has me REALLY scared?

JarJar Binks was made not for us, the Real fans ((Obviously)) but for the little kids, from 3 to 8, and you know what? they LOVED JarJar Binks...

So, in 20 years, when were all agin, and mumbeling about how Ep-I and II sucked Ass? All the kids who will be grown up, will be having fond memories of them.. (shivers) the horror.

I don't know if that will be the case. As far as being a bonafide cultural phenomenon goes, the prequels can't even touch the OT (ANH was huge in a way people who weren't around when it first came out can't really even comprehend). I doubt kids will be remembering the prequels very well if at all in 20 years.

They won't remember it in the same sense that I remember Star Wars from my childhood because it isn't the same event, and it couldn't be no matter what was on the screen. Part of what made Star Wars such an event was that it revitalized a moribund movie industry that was producing shit like "Saturday Night Fever" and Woody Allen movies. The modern movie industry pumps out swashbuckling blockbusters all the time.

But the cultural icons of Star Wars are indelibly inscribed onto the memories of youth anyway, because of their enduring iconography. For example, the lightsabre still has a special place in every child's heart, because it is just so fucking cool.

While the example with Saturday Night Fever was rather poor (it was released in December 1977, seven months after Star Wars opened and it was well recieved by the audience and earned pretty good at the box office), you're quite correct. It seems as if most movies made at the time was very formulaic, and Star Wars broke that mold.

[Soulman]

Part of the problem is that the stilted, genteel, emotionally distant, and somewhat postured behaviour and speech patterns of the Old Republic (which are intended to be somewhat reminiscent of the Gilded Age of aristocracy on Earth) is seen as a product of incompetence rather than a deliberate choice. So people rant and rave about how lousy and stilted the acting is. I wonder if these same people walk out of a Shakespeare play saying "who the hell uses all of these thous and thees and forsooths and other horribly wooden speech patterns"?

That is a pretty good point. Maybe we're just so used to people in sci-fi behaving like those today that people behaving in a manner more like in a costume drama has to be pointed out.

Or it could just be crap acting and writing, I don't know.

[Meest]

I think it's that Lucas is old and his concept of cool is just lame now. In the originals A New Hope wasn't that bad, but it was filled with cliche cheese, but it was done in a exciting and told in a simple but sound way. Lucas just needs to remove himself from writing and directing, and toss McCallum as far as he can. And who cares about the 2 hour limit, over 2 and less than LOTR length would be fine, we all seen some of the cut scenes, and they are some of the better ones. AOTC was a mess because of the editing, I will always say the Padme family scene helps save and make their relationship believable. I know it was rough because it trying to confuse who is good or bad, but they needed more complex and involved detective work to bring it out, there was too many people going to one place just to waste time till they are "forced" to chase towards the real goal.

Star Wars isn't that complicated as a concept, yet the PT dumbs it down even further, and is sanitized, ANH was a feel good movie, but look at how many people die in it, that's why you care, the good guys need to be in danger even when winning. We know certain characters can't be killed off, but there's still room for tension with ruthless villains and not knowing when they'll off someone. The comic relief was way overboard, one 3PO comment per serious battle maybe, but 3-5 in a row just killed battle scenes the same as Jar Jar's. The latter halves of both movies and the Qui-Gon moments in TPM was the only parts of that movie that made me stay glued to the movie, he gave direction to the plot, the rest was just garbled. Even with the forcefield thing stopping Kenobi, they still pulled off the sense of urgency and excitement, just watch Obi get all hyped and pumped for the battle and being the total opposite of Qui-Gon's preparation, that's what people felt watching the OT. And the inbetween action moments just felt like that had no substance, in the OT the slow scenes were good and help make the change of pace enjoyable and prepare for action, in the PT it felt like filler.

[Trytostaydead]

I think it's that Lucas is old and his concept of cool is just lame now. In the originals A New Hope wasn't that bad, but it was filled with cliche cheese, but it was done in a exciting and told in a simple but sound way. Lucas just needs to remove himself from writing and directing, and toss McCallum as far as he can. And who cares about the 2 hour limit, over 2 and less than LOTR length would be fine, we all seen some of the cut scenes, and they are some of the better ones. AOTC was a mess because of the editing, I will always say the Padme family scene helps save and make their relationship believable. I know it was rough because it trying to confuse who is good or bad, but they needed more complex and involved detective work to bring it out, there was too many people going to one place just to waste time till they are "forced" to chase towards the real goal.

Star Wars isn't that complicated as a concept, yet the PT dumbs it down even further, and is sanitized, ANH was a feel good movie, but look at how many people die in it, that's why you care, the good guys need to be in danger even when winning. We know certain characters can't be killed off, but there's still room for tension with ruthless villains and not knowing when they'll off someone. The comic relief was way overboard, one 3PO comment per serious battle maybe, but 3-5 in a row just killed battle scenes the same as Jar Jar's. The latter halves of both movies and the Qui-Gon moments in TPM was the only parts of that movie that made me stay glued to the movie, he gave direction to the plot, the rest was just garbled. Even with the forcefield thing stopping Kenobi, they still pulled off the sense of urgency and excitement, just watch Obi get all hyped and pumped for the battle and being the total opposite of Qui-Gon's preparation, that's what people felt watching the OT. And the inbetween action moments just felt like that had no substance, in the OT the slow scenes were good and help make the change of pace enjoyable and prepare for action, in the PT it felt like filler.

I don't think Lucas' age has anything to do with it, unless he has Alzheimers, Parkinsons, or senile dementia. I think he probably had too many yes men who were afraid to tell him something negative, I mean, this was the famous George Lucas FINALLY making a new Star Wars.

And I don't think the PT tried dumbing it down, if anything, it tried to make it TOO meaningful with layers of not-so-hidden meanings. Perhaps GL bought too much into his own image?

[Gunhead]

I think Meest has a good point.

In ANH the whole movie begins with rebels getting their asses handed to them. Lots of rebel troopers kick the bucket in that one. Later when the rebels attack the DS, 80% of the attacking fighters are destroyed.

In ESB a lot of rebels get wasted on Hoth. Solo is tortured by Vader just for shits and giggles. In general things aren't looking so hot.

PM.. ... a lot of droids die... We get a lot of talk about starving people in camps but we don't see it. On screen human casualties can be counted with one hand. A few gungans buy it but come on, they were armed with shiny balls... balls for fucks sake. What really rubs me the wrong way with the gugans vs. droids fight is the fact that the gungan weapons seem to be made to fight droids.
The general grittiness is just gone.

-Gunhead

[HemlockGrey]

TPM and AOTC, to me, just sort of lacked that mythic quality of the OT. In the OT, you could clearly see the epic. Hero vs Villian. It never lost that strong, epic strain. In TPM and AOTC, however, it gets bogged down. There's too much political bullshit (Oh, no, they'll revoke our trade franchise! We need a three-fourths majority in the Senate! The goddamn Jawas are filibustering again!).