A very crippled DSII reaches earth's orbit

[Rommie2006]

To address the phase cloak..

1) We know there's a 'phasing rate' from 'Pegasus'. The extraordinarily dense material of the armour belt will drop that very low, if it even allows the phasing to work.

2) Gravity affects phased matter(The Next Phase). Therefore, tractor beams will be able to halt the ship's progress.

3) Gases still work with phased matter(The Next Phase; Geordi doesn't suffocate). Toss some poison gas down the corridor the ship's bridge is currently superimposed on. No more problem.

4) Yes, the reactor is shielded. I can't imagine anything that powerful not being shielded due to the massive output.

Alright then... Fed's phase cloak is pretty useless then.


Well I suppose IF they could find a way to phase cloak past DSII hull, they could try their luck with the reactor shields. Hmm... how bout rip off every single warp core from every fed ship, stuck it into a huge erm... freighter with phase cloak, rig them to blow/go critical at the same time, and perhaps stuff in a few thousand torps for extra fireworks. Then have it remotely piloted to the reactor core, ignite and pray...

We're getting pretty desperate here....

[SirNitram]

Alright then... Fed's phase cloak is pretty useless then.


Well I suppose IF they could find a way to phase cloak past DSII hull, they could try their luck with the reactor shields. Hmm... how bout rip off every single warp core from every fed ship, stuck it into a huge erm... freighter with phase cloak, rig them to blow/go critical at the same time, and perhaps stuff in a few thousand torps for extra fireworks. Then have it remotely piloted to the reactor core, ignite and pray...

We're getting pretty desperate here....

Again, the tractor beams would work since gravity works on phased matter. ANd yea, pretty desperate. That'd be a big freighter, and you have to wonder how you'd get it close.

No, better just to go with the Federation's strong point and negotiate. Interesting, isn't it? A situation where both sides win by exploiting the thing we berate the Feds for most times.

[Rommie2006]

Alright then... Fed's phase cloak is pretty useless then.


Well I suppose IF they could find a way to phase cloak past DSII hull, they could try their luck with the reactor shields. Hmm... how bout rip off every single warp core from every fed ship, stuck it into a huge erm... freighter with phase cloak, rig them to blow/go critical at the same time, and perhaps stuff in a few thousand torps for extra fireworks. Then have it remotely piloted to the reactor core, ignite and pray...

We're getting pretty desperate here....

Again, the tractor beams would work since gravity works on phased matter. ANd yea, pretty desperate. That'd be a big freighter, and you have to wonder how you'd get it close.

No, better just to go with the Federation's strong point and negotiate. Interesting, isn't it? A situation where both sides win by exploiting the thing we berate the Feds for most times.

Oops. Forgot about gravity. Haha.

Negotiation? Serious? You know I thought all these discussions were centered around the assumption that both sides dont negotiate. They try to blow the each other to hell... surrender if necessary... but a truce?

Come on, what's stopping the Imperials from calling for reinforcements once Q returns their full functionality? For that matter what's stopping the Imperials from breaking any truce and blowing Earth to bits. Once Q makes the DSII fully operational, even the entire fucking Alpha Quadrant powers cant do jack shit to it.... LOL

If the Feds are naive enough to put their trust in a treaty with the Imperials, a damn piece of paper, then they deserve to die.

And speaking of negotiations, you must know the Imperials are technically in a position of power. While their DSII is offline for a full month, they are practical invulnerable from any Fed weapons. They can wait for Q's periods to be over... then let the carnage begin!

[SirNitram]

Oops. Forgot about gravity. Haha.

Negotiation? Serious? You know I thought all these discussions were centered around the assumption that both sides dont negotiate. They try to blow the each other to hell... surrender if necessary... but a truce?

More than a truce; a partnership. But he who surrenders negotiation from the options in wartime is a fool. You need more Sun Tzu!

Come on, what's stopping the Imperials from calling for reinforcements once Q returns their full functionality? For that matter what's stopping the Imperials from breaking any truce and blowing Earth to bits. Once Q makes the DSII fully operational, even the entire fucking Alpha Quadrant powers cant do jack shit to it.... LOL

True, but we have no guarantees the DS2 can contact home or find it.. It is a Galaxy far, far away. The DS2 does need supplies somewhere down the line, and it's cheaper to simply negotiate with their fellow humans for places for their inhabitants to go when they want time off, resources to keep the DS2 running, and eventually, places to retire to and recruit from.

If the Feds are naive enough to put their trust in a treaty with the Imperials, a damn piece of paper, then they deserve to die.

And speaking of negotiations, you must know the Imperials are technically in a position of power. While their DSII is offline for a full month, they are practical invulnerable from any Fed weapons. They can wait for Q's periods to be over... then let the carnage begin!

They could slaughter indiscriminately.. But what do you do then? Just mass genocide for the fuck of it? Most people aren't that morally dead. Also, the DS2 must keep itself fueled and it's inhabitants fed. It will be best to run it on minimum for as long as possible, whenever possible.. Which means setting up a safe home. Why not negotiate with the local primitives for a position of power and safety?

[Rommie2006]

Oops. Forgot about gravity. Haha.

Negotiation? Serious? You know I thought all these discussions were centered around the assumption that both sides dont negotiate. They try to blow the each other to hell... surrender if necessary... but a truce?

More than a truce; a partnership. But he who surrenders negotiation from the options in wartime is a fool. You need more Sun Tzu!

Ok. Fine... Sorry, but I still have the EVIL Galactic Empire impression stuck in my head.. so I just assumed that negotiations would be useless.

Come on, what's stopping the Imperials from calling for reinforcements once Q returns their full functionality? For that matter what's stopping the Imperials from breaking any truce and blowing Earth to bits. Once Q makes the DSII fully operational, even the entire fucking Alpha Quadrant powers cant do jack shit to it.... LOL

True, but we have no guarantees the DS2 can contact home or find it.. It is a Galaxy far, far away. The DS2 does need supplies somewhere down the line, and it's cheaper to simply negotiate with their fellow humans for places for their inhabitants to go when they want time off, resources to keep the DS2 running, and eventually, places to retire to and recruit from.

Hmm, point taken. My question is, does the DSII have any sort of manufacturing capabilities? Even minor facilities, like creating a ISD from raw materials? Frigates? Freighters? Fighters? If DSII do have some limited form of manufacturing capabilities it may make them less susceptible to negotiation, cause they can always build new support ships and conquer their resources... As for living space, I think I once read a calculation of how much population DSII can theoratically support... I think it was several billions.

If the Feds are naive enough to put their trust in a treaty with the Imperials, a damn piece of paper, then they deserve to die.

And speaking of negotiations, you must know the Imperials are technically in a position of power. While their DSII is offline for a full month, they are practical invulnerable from any Fed weapons. They can wait for Q's periods to be over... then let the carnage begin!

They could slaughter indiscriminately.. But what do you do then? Just mass genocide for the fuck of it? Most people aren't that morally dead. Also, the DS2 must keep itself fueled and it's inhabitants fed. It will be best to run it on minimum for as long as possible, whenever possible.. Which means setting up a safe home. Why not negotiate with the local primitives for a position of power and safety?

[/quote]

Supplies wise the Imperials can always conquer. Grab the native plants and start growing in DSII if they have too... it's a big station. And in this discussion, from what the threadstarter mentioned that the "DSII will attack Earth", it kinda gives me the assumption that ya they are genocidal maniacs. But assumptions aside, I suppose it's possible the Imperials wouldnt mind setting up a treaty with the Federation... Maybe Imperials as the overlords and Feds paying tribute to the Imperials? (and we've seen how receptive the Feds are to this kind of arrangement, just look at their stubborness to give up during the Dominion War)

[Darth Wong]

Negotiation? Serious? You know I thought all these discussions were centered around the assumption that both sides dont negotiate. They try to blow the each other to hell... surrender if necessary... but a truce?

Made possible by DS2's crippled and isolated state. They need to eventually make friends in this galaxy, since they have no military-industrial infrastructure any more. Negotiations are usually not an issue in these debates because the Imperials would have no reason to negotiate. They would here.

Come on, what's stopping the Imperials from calling for reinforcements once Q returns their full functionality?

The fact that they're in the wrong galaxy, perhaps?

For that matter what's stopping the Imperials from breaking any truce and blowing Earth to bits. Once Q makes the DSII fully operational, even the entire fucking Alpha Quadrant powers cant do jack shit to it.... LOL

Once DS2 becomes fully operational, they are still cut off from resupply for a long time, possibly forever. They need an industrial base, and here they have a gift-wrapped human space-faring civilization to work with. Blowing it up would be stupid.

[Darth Wong]

Hmm, point taken. My question is, does the DSII have any sort of manufacturing capabilities? Even minor facilities, like creating a ISD from raw materials? Frigates? Freighters? Fighters? If DSII do have some limited form of manufacturing capabilities it may make them less susceptible to negotiation, cause they can always build new support ships and conquer their resources... As for living space, I think I once read a calculation of how much population DSII can theoratically support... I think it was several billions.

DS2 is not known to have manufacturing capabilities. And it is highly doubtful that it would be capable of replicating the entire industrial infrastructure of the Empire.

Supplies wise the Imperials can always conquer. Grab the native plants and start growing in DSII if they have too... it's a big station.

They still need industrial infrastructure. Their supplies and spare parts won't hold out forever, and food is but a small portion of what they need.

[Rommie2006]

Regarding the Imperials negotiating discussion.

I admit (EVIL genocidal Galactic Empire aside), it may be more advantageous for them to negotiate than simply blast away.

But then that raises another question(I assume the Feds have some knowledge on the Empire's history), would not the Feds be concerned that by negotiating an agreement with the DSII, it is simply prolonging their inevitable defeat?

The Imperials in their DSII could take their time, make "friends", set up a few industrial centers, stock up supplies, and start building a fleet in secret to take over the Trek universe

Ok, but then again I think I am going out of the topic here...

[Crossroads Inc.]

You know, though I'm not a Trekkie, deep down it still gulls me that after all this, there was NO way to simply blow the thing up. We had 10 pages of desperate, sometimes VERY Desperate speculation, and in the end the best solution simply seems for the Feds to negotiate with the Crippled DSII for supply’s and such.

Basically in the end we hit Stalemate, no way for the Feds to blow the thing up, and would be extremely stupid from the Imps to 'Nuke' a fully industrialized Homeworld to a Space Fairing 'Empire'

Though, one could almost imagine making this into a FanFic, a lost, crippled DS ((Not necessarily #2, perhaps some smaller, lost third one)) Ends up outside Earth and hijinks ensue
[/b]

[Darth Wong]

You know, though I'm not a Trekkie, deep down it still gulls me that after all this, there was NO way to simply blow the thing up. We had 10 pages of desperate, sometimes VERY Desperate speculation, and in the end the best solution simply seems for the Feds to negotiate with the Crippled DSII for supply’s and such.

Remember that Riker once estimated that it would take nearly all of the Enterprise-D's photon torpedoes to blow up an asteroid which is maybe 5-8km wide. Magnify that by about a million times and you have a Death Star (admittedly, this oversimplifies numerous factors but you get an idea of the scope of the problem).

[Enigma]

Well since the OP says that it is a guarantee that the DS2 would be disabled for a month and it could stay disabled for up to a decade (or more) I'd first have the DS2 towed away from Earth's orbit and move it close to Jupiter. If diplomacy doesn't work then try to (as Wautd suggested) remove all surface weapons (by destroying or taking as many possible for research, etc) and bash the superlaser into inoperability so that if the DS2 comes back online it can't do anything but fly around unless of course the Feds can seriously mess up their propulsion?

But let's say they couldn't all of the weapons in time and the superlaser is still intact. Then as a last ditch effort, push the DS2 into Jupiter? Would that take care of it?

[Tribun]

Well since the OP says that it is a guarantee that the DS2 would be disabled for a month and it could stay disabled for up to a decade (or more) I'd first have the DS2 towed away from Earth's orbit and move it close to Jupiter. If diplomacy doesn't work then try to (as Wautd suggested) remove all surface weapons (by destroying or taking as many possible for research, etc) and bash the superlaser into inoperability so that if the DS2 comes back online it can't do anything but fly around unless of course the Feds can seriously mess up their propulsion?

But let's say they couldn't all of the weapons in time and the superlaser is still intact. Then as a last ditch effort, push the DS2 into Jupiter? Would that take care of it?

First manage to tow such a giant. You even have a idea of the mass of DSII? And their repulsor engines, which HAVE to be online otherwise the DSII would crash on Earth pretty fast, will be more then enough to counter such tactics.

[brianeyci]

What happened to the antimatter driver idea being tossed out around page 2? That was not a technobabble solution (at least not as technobabble as trying to get the Romulans to throw a singularity or using the Genesis device).

Anyway, I like the negotiation idea, because the Federation already has the infrastructure to support a dictatorship. Humans outnumber Aliens by far in Starfleet. How was it worded -- "Vulcans are the intellectual puppets of the Federation"? Humans seem to do the dirty work in the galaxy, with the aliens paying humans lip service. Why do you think that Earth hasn't been fortified despite numerous attacks by alien powers? Aliens, aliens, aliens in the Federation council probably blocking a 0.00001% increase in the military budget.

All the plan needs is a Leyton and it would work. Stormtroopers shuttle themselves to key locations in Starfleet working alongside their human friends. Then, with collaboration on both sides, the Federation council and President is mysteriously disappeared. Without a news service or freedom of the press, it will take time for the word to get out. Meanwhile, blow up a few planets to "bring the local systems in line". A new golden age (for humans at least) begins, and aliens don't stop humans anymore from building a proper defensive perimeter around the solar system.

Starfleet remains separate from the Imperial Navy, but over time collaboration and working together brings them closer and closer together until eventually Starfleet has served its purpose or they are fully integrated and the idiocy dispelled (this is the long-term plan taking maybe decades). Picard types are not around to dispute, because there are seemingly legitimate orders coming from Starfleet Command. Eventually there will be those who refuse to follow those orders, but word will be excruciatingly slow to get out because of the lack of an independent press or independent deep space communications network.

Brian

[Enigma]

Well since the OP says that it is a guarantee that the DS2 would be disabled for a month and it could stay disabled for up to a decade (or more) I'd first have the DS2 towed away from Earth's orbit and move it close to Jupiter. If diplomacy doesn't work then try to (as Wautd suggested) remove all surface weapons (by destroying or taking as many possible for research, etc) and bash the superlaser into inoperability so that if the DS2 comes back online it can't do anything but fly around unless of course the Feds can seriously mess up their propulsion?

But let's say they couldn't all of the weapons in time and the superlaser is still intact. Then as a last ditch effort, push the DS2 into Jupiter? Would that take care of it?

First manage to tow such a giant. You even have a idea of the mass of DSII? And their repulsor engines, which HAVE to be online otherwise the DSII would crash on Earth pretty fast, will be more then enough to counter such tactics.

A huge fleet of Fed ships wrapping subspace fields over DS2 and lower it's mass then tow it? Isn't that how the E-D towed the stellar fragment from colliding with an inhabitant planet? So wouldn't the help of let's say about 100 starships each one help in reducing the DS2's mass and then tow it work? Or is the DS2 simply too big or massive for it to work? Or if the ships lack the power to reduce the DS2's mass then why not attach subspace generators on specific points of the battlestation and then tow it?

Mind you that is if diplomacy fails.

[Enigma]

You know, though I'm not a Trekkie, deep down it still gulls me that after all this, there was NO way to simply blow the thing up. We had 10 pages of desperate, sometimes VERY Desperate speculation, and in the end the best solution simply seems for the Feds to negotiate with the Crippled DSII for supply’s and such.

Remember that Riker once estimated that it would take nearly all of the Enterprise-D's photon torpedoes to blow up an asteroid which is maybe 5-8km wide. Magnify that by about a million times and you have a Death Star (admittedly, this oversimplifies numerous factors but you get an idea of the scope of the problem).

So how would the DS fair if about a thousand Fed ships that can launch torps and do so constantly with occasional stops for resupply and that such seige were to last a month? Would it simply dent the DS or seriously damage it if not destroy it? Or would the solution be better to destroy all of the surface weapons and the superlaser and seriously damage it's propulsion systems but not enough to lose it's orbit around Earth?

[wautd]

Well since the OP says that it is a guarantee that the DS2 would be disabled for a month and it could stay disabled for up to a decade (or more) I'd first have the DS2 towed away from Earth's orbit and move it close to Jupiter. If diplomacy doesn't work then try to (as Wautd suggested) remove all surface weapons (by destroying or taking as many possible for research, etc) and bash the superlaser into inoperability so that if the DS2 comes back online it can't do anything but fly around unless of course the Feds can seriously mess up their propulsion?

But let's say they couldn't all of the weapons in time and the superlaser is still intact. Then as a last ditch effort, push the DS2 into Jupiter? Would that take care of it?

First manage to tow such a giant. You even have a idea of the mass of DSII? And their repulsor engines, which HAVE to be online otherwise the DSII would crash on Earth pretty fast, will be more then enough to counter such tactics.

A huge fleet of Fed ships wrapping subspace fields over DS2 and lower it's mass then tow it? Isn't that how the E-D towed the stellar fragment from colliding with an inhabitant planet? So wouldn't the help of let's say about 100 starships each one help in reducing the DS2's mass and then tow it work? Or is the DS2 simply too big or massive for it to work? Or if the ships lack the power to reduce the DS2's mass then why not attach subspace generators on specific points of the battlestation and then tow it?

Mind you that is if diplomacy fails.

even if they could move the damn thing, it will probably at such low speed that it would take decades for the DS to reach jupiter

[Aaron]

Enigma:

For your suggestions to work, the Feds would have to be able to defeat the TIE's the station carries. Which are probably enough to defeat most of SF on their own.

[Enigma]

Enigma:

For your suggestions to work, the Feds would have to be able to defeat the TIE's the station carries. Which are probably enough to defeat most of SF on their own.

True, but I went with the assumption that the Tie's weren't either present or too few to make a difference. If not then it would be very tough to destroy the Tie's unless you send wave after wave of Peregrine fighters against the TIE's with the Fed starships providing support.

[wautd]

would transporting the TIE pilot out of their cokpits an options? Or would they be too fast to get a descent lock on?

[Enigma]

Enigma:

For your suggestions to work, the Feds would have to be able to defeat the TIE's the station carries. Which are probably enough to defeat most of SF on their own.

I forgot, but wouldn't the Feds get help from the Klingons? Just a thought, if the Feds find out the hard way about the TIEs then wouldn't a good tactic against the TIEs would be to have the Klingon fleet be cloaked and deploy themselves near the launch\hangar bays and then destroy any TIEs coming out? Drawing out the TIEs by using Fed ships as decoys?

[SirNitram]

would transporting the TIE pilot out of their cokpits an options? Or would they be too fast to get a descent lock on?

Speed + ECM + dense hull + ionized particle trail + high energy reactor onboard..

[Aaron]

True, but I went with the assumption that the Tie's weren't either present or too few to make a difference. If not then it would be very tough to destroy the Tie's unless you send wave after wave of Peregrine fighters against the TIE's with the Fed starships providing support.

Well the OP states that the TIE's can launch and Dr. Saxton estimates that the DSII carries 10,000 TIEs at a minimum. They'll simply overwhelm SF, Perigrines or not. And I doubt there's a chance in hell that a SF fighter can take on a TIE and win.

would transporting the TIE pilot out of their cokpits an options? Or would they be too fast to get a descent lock on?

I would think that the combination of high speed/acceleration, hull materials and the TIE's ECM would make a transporter lock pretty hard.

I forgot, but wouldn't the Feds get help from the Klingons? Just a thought, if the Feds find out the hard way about the TIEs then wouldn't a good tactic against the TIEs would be to have the Klingon fleet be cloaked and deploy themselves near the launch\hangar bays and then destroy any TIEs coming out? Drawing out the TIEs by using Fed ships as decoys?

They probably could get help from the Klingons, however the DSII undoubtably has the means to detect cloaked ships (crystal grav traps), and the TIE's could simply take them out while their cloaked.

[The Original Nex]

IIRC the DS1 had over a million crew, the DS2 being much larger would have significantly more. Does the Federation have a million security officers to call on?

Which is the Shit blasted WEG number. Almost assuredly wrong.

[Aaron]

Dr. Saxton speculates that the crew of the DS's was made up of over a billion military personnel.

Realistic crew and troop populations for the Death Stars must be at least several thousand times the previously published estimates. Each of these battle stations probably carried a few billion military personnel. Given that the Galactic Empire is able to recruit from millions of worlds which typically have populations of billions, this is still only a miniscule fraction of the galaxy's total resources. It should be remembered that there exist totalitarian states on Earth where a substantial proportion of the total population is in military service. The Galactic Empire is probably a relatively under-militarised society by comparison.

Bolded the relevant parts.

[Gunhead]

Even if you could get transport lock on the TIE pilots. There could be hundreds of them swarming each capital ship the feddies can muster. So instead of getting pummeled by 200 TIEs, they only get pummeled by 190.
If the feddies can come up with say 10 capital ships. 200 TIEs per ship...
The Imps have committed only 20% of their available fighters.

-Gunhead