Some truths revealed by GL in AOTC

[Illuminatus Primus]

I meant in the sense that you do not have to write some letters to their parents back at home in case the recruits in question get killed. Recruits can be replaced easily but political reasons may make this a less desiderable option.

They wouldn't have to. Stormies are stripped of identity and depersonalized. They become non-persons once conscripted. And they're still not having huge attrition rates. I find the suggestion that a Vietnam-type whining is a considerable problem in a totalitarian dictatorship without any real war which finds itself able to blow up important planets without political problems to be particularly amusing.

Likely.Although I am not sure about conscription.Conscripts are not probably a good option for the empire.

Why not? Fits the character of the Empire, and moreover its stated in official info, and not contradicted by the movies.

[pecker]

Just because the Dark Side gives you more power does not maker the Dark Side itself more powerful.

[Admiral Piett]

They wouldn't have to. Stormies are stripped of identity and depersonalized. They become non-persons once conscripted. And they're still not having huge attrition rates. I find the suggestion that a Vietnam-type whining is a considerable problem in a totalitarian dictatorship without any real war which finds itself able to blow up important planets without political problems to be particularly amusing.

This is going to affect every family.Turning everyone's son into a mindless drone is not politically viable even in a dictatorship.

Why not? Fits the character of the Empire, and moreover its stated in official info, and not contradicted by the movies.

Governments with internal political turmoil as the main problem usually prefer to use professional soldiers rather than short term conscripts.Or at least keeping even an èlite force if they cannot do without conscripts

[Admiral Piett]

And the empire is not probably totalitarian in the scientific (social sciences) sense of the term.The do not try to ram an indeology into everyone throat.Neither they seem particulary interested into shaping the society to conform some model.The empire is just an authoritarian dicatorship,like many have existed on earth(which does not mean they are not nasty).

[nightmare]

People see so many contradictions where they don't exist.

The Thrawn Trilogies cloning system is completely different from the one seen in Ep II.

One produces a full clone in ten years. One produces it in a year(In a week, with Ysalamri).

One must be rigorously trained. The other simply has brain patterns etched into their mind instantly.

One is docile, prone to taking orders and not questioning them(If you can't see how this is a major weakness in a Rebellion..). The other is a full person.

And then you must think about the fact that...

A) With Jango gone, they will need new 'stock'. A simple small recruiting campaign will provide plenty of varied material, allowing for people with varied looks(Like Kanos).

B) The Empire has lost serious ground by the time Thrawn appears. Has anyone thought of the possibility they might have lost their main facilities?

That's pretty much what I have concluded too. (I've known they were clones for certain for some time, I saw the pictures posted here months ago.)

[Master of Ossus]

It would make more sense if combat troops were clones, and the rest of the stormtroopers were recruits, but that's not what is said in the movies.

Incidentally, AotC has one of the greatest audio commentaries I have ever seen in a DVD.

[His Divine Shadow]

It says clones were made illegal after the CWs.

It also said the origin of the stormtroopers was a mystery to all but the Emperor and his most trusted advisers or something, plus they became critically short in supply after the Emperor died.
I guess with the Emperor dead those hidden cloning facilities stopped pumping out stormies.

[His Divine Shadow]

Nevermind the fact that nowhere in the EU or even the OT does anyone acknowledge that Stormtroopers are clones. You'd think someone would notice this and point it out at some point.

Ofcourse noone might have known, it is possible to make the clones look different, as we saw in AOTC, that might have been on purpose, but not something Thrawn did when he started cloning soldiers.

[His Divine Shadow]

Plus, it was possible to detect that they were clones because they had a different "feel" in the Force. If all stormies are clones, then they would also be sensed in such a way, yet that never happens in any of the literature.

OFcourse the regular stormies could have been grown by other methods, unlike the Thrawn method of rapid cloning and mind-imprinting.

[His Divine Shadow]

Actually, we see Kanos, Jax, and Kanos' partner I believe and it seems Kanos and his partner are actually normal humans, formely being Stormtroopers. Great job overriding all the EU George.

If the original stormies came from a laarge pool of donors and the method employed to change their looks somewhat, then it's easily explained.

[His Divine Shadow]

IIRC, in the Thrawn Trilogy they do say that cloning was banned

That might very well be true too, as I've shown, it's likely many steps where taken to hide the fact that stormies are clones.
And the stormies are not the main army of the Empire either, they are more like a core group of soldiers loyal to the Emperor.
There's also the regular imperial army.

Kanos, Davin Felth, etc showed creative and independent streaks. One held on to duty and formulated a strategy for avenging his Master beyond the orders of anyone, and Felth actually saw a design flaw in the AT-AT and eventually killed his superior officer whom he believed was corrupt.

I don't deny that its possible to stetch things to make sense, but I can't see how clones like those we saw in AoTC can fill these other roles.

They might have changed the formula a bit, plus there where abberations in the clones(ref: Visual Dictionary).

The Royal Guards were selected from stormies who showed skill and an aptitude for the Force. Shouldn't the cloners know which clones had Force-potential and which did not? (Reference: Dark Side Sourcebook)

The force is not purely genetic, this has been said in the EU plenty of times.

That's a stetch (its hard to imagine that somehow cloning was that highly restricted), but ultimately possible (perhaps the cloning planets in your view could've been in the Deep Core, shielded from the Civil War and in loyal Imperial hands?).

I think the main facilities where hidden to everyone in the Empire but the Emperor and his most trusted advisors, possibly even the stormies themselves might not have known they where clones.

[His Divine Shadow]

Exactly. So why not recruit people or rely on the other "Imp SS" idea? It's not cost-effective. There's no way its worth it.

The stormies are his core group of fanatical soldiers.
He's got the regular army too, which uses normal methods and conscription and all that.

[Darth Wong]

Is the idea that stormtroopers are clones but pilots, who always wear a modified version of the same helmet, are not? Or is Lucas going to go back and delete the part in ANH where Luke Skywalker talked about going to the Academy?

[His Divine Shadow]

Is the idea that stormtroopers are clones but pilots, who always wear a modified version of the same helmet, are not? Or is Lucas going to go back and delete the part in ANH where Luke Skywalker talked about going to the Academy?

Well I figure it like this, after clone-wars, cloning outlawed, so everything else became "normalized", possibly even prior to it.

Ofcourse Palpy still wanted his own core-group of fanatical soldiers so he created the stormtrooper core, which noone really know how they where created or where they came from, and add to that lots of different DNA samples and methods to make the clones look different and it'd be hard for anyone to figure out they where clones.

Heck he might even start a rumor that says that stormies really come from this secret hard-ass planet on the rim, a humanoid like people of brutal warriors, which would also make people less suspicious if they saw they where a bit too like, that is if they ever saw them without their helmets.

So instead of thinking of cloning they think they got it all down, that stormies are some humans aliens from another planet.

[nightmare]

Is the idea that stormtroopers are clones but pilots, who always wear a modified version of the same helmet, are not? Or is Lucas going to go back and delete the part in ANH where Luke Skywalker talked about going to the Academy?

Dunno, but TIE pilots aren't listed as 1.83 m high in the databank, unlike the Stormtroopers, Snowtroopers, Clonetroopers, Navy troopers, and Scout Troopers.

Interestingly enough, Gunners are listed as 1.8 m, and Rebel troopers as "varies". Mini-me clones fits better behind the big guns?

[Master of Ossus]

There have to be SOME conscripts into the Imperial armed forces. After all, there is an academy that Luke dreamed of attending, and that Biggs fled to join the Rebellion. Perhaps only officers are trained in such a matter, but why would officers be regular joes, and the troops they lead be clones?

[His Divine Shadow]

There have to be SOME conscripts into the Imperial armed forces. After all, there is an academy that Luke dreamed of attending, and that Biggs fled to join the Rebellion. Perhaps only officers are trained in such a matter, but why would officers be regular joes, and the troops they lead be clones?

Well where do you think the:

Imperial Army
Fighter Corps
Officer Corps
Black Ops
Etc.

Comes from?

Stormies are the clones, and they're just one corps, probably a small one too in comparison to the Imperial Army.

[Stravo]

Guys, let's be clear, Stromies ALONE are clones. They are the ELITE branch of the military. You still need conscripts for regular army and naval personnel.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well stormies and their stormie variations.

[Ender]

Is the idea that stormtroopers are clones but pilots, who always wear a modified version of the same helmet, are not? Or is Lucas going to go back and delete the part in ANH where Luke Skywalker talked about going to the Academy?

Given that Biggs and Han both went there, I dont think he can

[Master of Ossus]

Guys, let's be clear, Stromies ALONE are clones. They are the ELITE branch of the military. You still need conscripts for regular army and naval personnel.

I thought that the point was that the clones are pretty well genetically perfect (except they do have the slightest tendency to bump their heads). If that is the case, then it does not make sense to conscript others into officer programs, or to place others in charge of naval forces (which are the primary instrument through which power is conveyed and projected). You want the clones to fill the most important areas, particularly since they will also be fanatically loyal. You do not want to put regular conscripts in charge of more important things, and even in command of clones.

[Crazy_Vasey]

I don't think they ever mentioned Han going to the academy in the films themselves.

[Master of Ossus]

I don't think they ever mentioned Han going to the academy in the films themselves.

Strawman. I never claimed that they mentioned Han was going to the Academy. They DO mention that Luke dreamed of going to an academy, and that Biggs had already gone. This establishes the Academy as being canonical.

[His Divine Shadow]

Strawman. I never claimed that they mentioned Han was going to the Academy. They DO mention that Luke dreamed of going to an academy, and that Biggs had already gone. This establishes the Academy as being canonical.

And this means what in any way?

Look at mine and Stravos points...

[Crazy_Vasey]

Calm down. I was just stating a fact. If I felt like debating the issue I would have made a much lengthier post, which would have been rather silly when you consider that yes Luke was indeed going to the academy at some point and Biggs was already there.