A very crippled DSII reaches earth's orbit

[Sea Skimmer]

DS2 is not known to have manufacturing capabilities. And it is highly doubtful that it would be capable of replicating the entire industrial infrastructure of the Empire.

It's going to have repair and maintenance shops onboard, and considering its size and the need to look after tens of thousands of onboard craft those are likely to be highly capable. They might not be able to build everything the Empire has, but a combination of cannibalization and utilizing those facilities should let them build anything they'd really need.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Wasn't thier a FanFic somewhere in which a lost ISD in the StarWars Galaxy, slowly, over a couple of years, began to re-create much of the Industrial capcities of the Empier?

If I rember they were able to make HyperMater in small amounts, refine Tib-Gas, build thier own Droids, and a couple of other things. If an ISD can do all this, I would imagine the DS could do vastly more.

((goes off to look for FanFic))

[Aaron]

Wasn't thier a FanFic somewhere in which a lost ISD in the StarWars Galaxy, slowly, over a couple of years, began to re-create much of the Industrial capcities of the Empier?

If I rember they were able to make HyperMater in small amounts, refine Tib-Gas, build thier own Droids, and a couple of other things. If an ISD can do all this, I would imagine the DS could do vastly more.

((goes off to look for FanFic))

Yes there was.

It's not impossible that the DSII would have machine shops and the like. As Sea Skimmer pointed out, they have thousands of small craft to support and from what I understand even ISD's could put in for maintenance. So they must have some manufactoring (sp?) capability.

Whether they can build Hypermatter facilities to fuel the DSII is another topic. Anything other than a small scale operation might be out of the question.

But if they reach an agreement with the Feds, they'll have all the time they need to setup an infrastructure.

[Darth Wong]

The problem with machine shops and the like is that you can only do so much with them. There are only so many components you can fabricate locally, and once your spares of the more sophisticated parts run out, you're SOL.

[Darth Wong]

A huge fleet of Fed ships wrapping subspace fields over DS2 and lower it's mass then tow it?

Any given Fed ship can only extend its field two or three kilometres ahead of the ship, hence the E-D's inability to encompass the entire asteroidal moon in Deja Q. Please explain how the fuck they're going to envelop a battlestation which is more than half the width of our moon. Not to mention getting close enough to even try this without getting tossed around and pulled apart by tractor beams.

[Aaron]

The problem with machine shops and the like is that you can only do so much with them. There are only so many components you can fabricate locally, and once your spares of the more sophisticated parts run out, you're SOL.

I'm not saying that they can build everything they need, but between their shops and Federation materials they should be able to come up with something to keep them going. The big problem I see is hypermatter. If they run the DS to much their going to run out of it eventually.

But if they use the DS as a base of operations and a giant fuel tank they can stretch things further. Maybe they can even dismantle unneeded portions of the DS and feed the materials into duplicators (assuming they have them and that they function similar to replicators) to make new parts and equipment.

[Darth Wong]

It would be much easier if they had the quickie starship-fab equipment from a World Devastator, but there is (AFAIK) no evidence that DS2 actually had this onboard.

[Aaron]

It would be much easier if they had the quickie starship-fab equipment from a World Devastator, but there is (AFAIK) no evidence that DS2 actually had this onboard.

Actually the DS can apperently carry several strike cruisers and ISDs, so depending on their priorities they can dismantle the smaller ships for materials and hypermatter or vice versa. As long as they keep the superlaser intact than they have a big stick to threaten whomever they like.

Of course they can still kill whatever the fuck they want with the thousands of hyperdrive capable gunboats the DS carries.

[Solauren]

Considering World Devestators were deployed 6 years after the Death Star II was destroyed, the odds are pretty low.

However, it was mentioned in the Jedi Academy trilogy how the Maw Installation mere adapted pre-existing atomic-furance technology to create World Devestators....

if the Death Star has an Atomic Furnace on board, or even the schematics and most of the parts....

[Crossroads Inc.]

Something tells me this Thread has slowly slipped from it's proper course, after 11pages maybe a split is in order? Maybe a:
"Manufacturing Properties of the DSII" or something is called for?

[Aaron]

Something tells me this Thread has slowly slipped from it's proper course, after 11pages maybe a split is in order? Maybe a:
"Manufacturing Properties of the DSII" or something is called for?

It's just another minor deviation. The issue of whether the Feds could destroy the DSII in the case of the (heavily)edited OP has pretty much been settled. The discussion could have been split at the tractor discussion, or the ongoing issue of fighters.

[Pu-239]

They still have protomatter, and I'd be very surprised if they simply tossed out the plans. They should at least be in some archive.

iirc, all the research was aboard the station that was destroyed by Khan. also, simply having the basic ingredients doesn't impart the ability to create one. just because i might have access to plutonium doesn't mean i'd be able to build a nuke, for example.

You could create a nasty fizzle...

Now, if you had highly enriched uranium...

[Pu-239]

Of course, the Fed mentality is not suited to blowing up planets and beating neighbors into submission

[Glocksman]

A lot is going to depend upon the type of commanders on board the DSII and just how much (if anything) Q lets them know about where they're at
.
If it's led by a bunch of arrogant Tarkin types (who would probably ignore whatever Q told them as lies), then Earth is toast and the DSII will eventually find itself at war with the entire Trekverse.

If the DSII has competent pragmatic commanders who are aware that they are in a strange galaxy by the act of a omnipotent being, they probably would me more amenable to negotiating with the human primitives below for support and supplies.

[Aaron]

A lot is going to depend upon the type of commanders on board the DSII and just how much (if anything) Q lets them know about where they're at
.
If it's led by a bunch of arrogant Tarkin types (who would probably ignore whatever Q told them as lies), then Earth is toast and the DSII will eventually find itself at war with the entire Trekverse.

If the DSII has competent pragmatic commanders who are aware that they are in a strange galaxy by the act of a omnipotent being, they probably would me more amenable to negotiating with the human primitives below for support and supplies.

Wasn't the DSII to be commanded by Moff Jerrrod (or whatever his name was, the guy in command of the construction), he seemed pretty reasonable.

Hey wautd, who's in command of this thing? Is Vader or the Emperor on board?

[wautd]

A lot is going to depend upon the type of commanders on board the DSII and just how much (if anything) Q lets them know about where they're at
.
If it's led by a bunch of arrogant Tarkin types (who would probably ignore whatever Q told them as lies), then Earth is toast and the DSII will eventually find itself at war with the entire Trekverse.

If the DSII has competent pragmatic commanders who are aware that they are in a strange galaxy by the act of a omnipotent being, they probably would me more amenable to negotiating with the human primitives below for support and supplies.

Wasn't the DSII to be commanded by Moff Jerrrod (or whatever his name was, the guy in command of the construction), he seemed pretty reasonable.

Hey wautd, who's in command of this thing? Is Vader or the Emperor on board?

Well it is the completed DSII so it will be whoever would be in charge if it was finished (Jerjerrod?).

[The Silence and I]

[Sorry for the delay, been busy]

4) Because the pulling operation could take months, use the torpedoes to destroy the ion engines to ensure the DS does not regain sublight anytime soon.

You do realize that after the first month, the protection is subject to end at any time, right?

Yeah... I realize that...

And that the Death Star's sublight engines are going to be massive targets that are going to take a lot of damage to disable permanently?

Unless you propose sublight engines are sealed in their high density armor I suggest you try to look at this another way:
Ions exit the engines from apartures in the rear; unless you have evidence they magically tunnel through meters of armor it is logical to assume there is no armor protecting the 'tail pipe' of the engine. Now, let me ask you--what do YOU think will happen if a few grams to a few kilograms of antimatter stray deep into the gaping 'tail pipe' and contact the equipment inside?

The engines do not have to be disabled for good with the first strike, merely rendered inoperable for a period of days or weeks until the next strike is ready, with the eventual goal being the total destruction of the engines.

Actually, targeting a torpedo would be very easy. If you're firing from extreme range, you've got a very predictable flight path.

Predicable flight path--check, easy targetting--not check. The problem with your assumption is time; from ~30,000 km, which is well above tractor range, a tractor emitter will have less than a second to react. They are not designed as weapons, attributing them targetting times on par with point defense weaponry is silly and unfounded.

The same ease of targeting that makes hits on the Death Star possible from long range is going to work against the torpedoes as well. Targeting close-range shots in a chaotic battle would be difficult, but targeting long-range shots coming in on a ballistic course would be a matter of simple physics calculations.

You would be right if the tractor emitters had more than a fraction of a second to deal with dozens of torpedoes on differing flight paths. But they don't unless the Feds launch from maximum range, which is unnecessary as a fraction of that range is still beyond tractor range.

*********************************

What's fighter range? At most 1000km based on X Wing targetting computers in ANH;

You got that from the inside the X-wing shots during ANH, didn't you? Never mind that in NJO, Vong and NR X-wings had dogfights going on at the lightsecond range...

A) The technology in NJO is supposedly very much improved over movie era B) If there is a conflict I know which I am more likely to believe (hint: movies trump the books).

What makes you think that the tractor beams are fragile and not heavily armored, since most prey coming in would immediately open fire on the tractor beam emitter if given a chance?

Personally I would assume any difficulty encountered while trying to destroy a tractor beam emitter would stem from the dedicated shielding protecting it along with the rest of the ship... but maybe that's just me.

In Vision of the Future an ISD was inside an Imperial shipyard yet could only destroy the tractor beams at a rate of one per minimum of every dozen seconds, despite having teraton-level weaponry and literally being suicidally desperate.

Ever seen what happens to several meters of warship armor when teraton weaponry hits it--and by extension the warship itself? There is a huge plume of vaporized hull material followed by the violent destruction of the vessel (watch the destruction of the ISD in ROTJ). If you seriously expect me to believe mere armor was offering so much more protection to a tractor beam emitter than many meters of it could to an ISD then forget debating me because I will not take you seriously. There are two alternatives I see immediately: A) For whatever reason only light point defense guns were used or B) the emitters were shielded.

When's the last time Fed ships towed something massing at least twice as much as a planet (DS1 had enough fuel onboard to annilate Alderaan and be ready to destroy Yavin IV afterward) with neutronium armor and fuel that outweights the ship by orders of magnitude? I must have missed that episode.

I present this as their best hope if diplomacy fails. Can they move something with such an insane mass? Not quickly, maybe not quickly enough. If they cannot tow it I would propose throwing large rocks at it; after the tractor emitters have been destroyed with the above methods.

Sorry, I guessed I missed the tactic to deal with the starfighters– spraying antimatter, it was?

Oh bravo. 'Silence thinks antimatter will actually cause a little damage to the unshielded DS, he must think it'll work against shielded TIEs! w00t!' Try harder, you are embarrasing me.

There are probably enough TIE bombers with gigaton missiles to annihilate the entire Federation navy onboard the DS2.

That goes without saying. Hence my plan to try and limit that advantage. And no it wasn't antimatter spreads...

**********************************

Asuming, of course, the torpedoes are accurate enough to hit the tractor emitters from long range, which considering the body of evidence in Trek that says they're not accurate enough to hit entire starships at much shorter ranges, seems unlikely.

Given a predictable target torpedoes have no accuracy issues; range does not inhibit accuracy either as onboard sensors move with the torpedo. The best explanations for your point blank misses involve sensor jamming.

(Before you say it I know the DS still has sensor jammers; all the fleet needs is one good sensor scan which they can use to give the torpedoes coordinates to aim for. On board sensors would be used only to update its position in space using stars as references or whatever it is they do).

And what's your justification for assuming the sublight engines of a battlestation designed to be immune to attack by Star Wars level civilizations are going to be vulnerable to Federation weapons?

I have already answered this above in this post. The gist of it is getting antimatter down the tube into the bowels of the engines and frying the comparatively fragile equipment in there. The goal is causing enough damage to keep the engine off line for a few days until the Feds can strike it again. Torpedoes have the accuracy needed to find and then fly through the enourmous openings the DS sublight engines are expected to have and that is what I expect them to do.

I still don't believe it's possible, frankly. You seem to be forgetting that there's a force acting to hold the Death Star in place--Earth's gravity well.

They don't have to overcome the force directly; they would be better off increasing orbital speed of the DS so it starts to spiral out. Sort of like using a lever, to use a loose analogy. Obviously this is another step that will take *time* lots of it. Once the DS is far enough from Earth they can begin to send it towards the sun (or even Venus of Mercury if it's handily close but that isn't specified). My first statements were in haste, I fully realize this is going to be a long operation; it depends entirely upon disabling the sublight engines--at first temporarily and eventually totaling them if possible (it might not be).

And there is ZERO evidence that the Federation can move planetary or near planetary mass objects in anything like a reasonable time frame. Your plan would require far more than 30 days to work, and depends on the DS being rendered helpless once the nerfing period is over.

Not contested; the journey into the Sun may take months. Assuming the tractor beams can be neutralized then the last thing the Feds need to hope for is applying enough delta vee in the right direction to cause the DS to fall into the Sun before the main guns are repaired.

If they are still towing and the guns are brought online and the DS is not yet on a one way course then there is nothing they can expect to do anymore because their tractor range is well below turbolaser range. They would have to stop towing and the DS will have time to fully recover.

Not to mention, considering the DS's size, they might well have machine shops on board capable of repairing damaged tractor emitters and sublight engines.

Aye, but that would be why the Feds produce as many of these torpedoes as they can and simply keep attacking to stay ahead of repairs.

*********************

At the end of the day the Feds only have a long shot, but I am trying to elaborate what I think that shot is. The odds are hugely against them and I recognize that. Thousands of TIE fighters, missiles or no, have a good chance of crippling entire fleets before anything else happens. The Federation has to find out the hard way the DS has destructive tractor beams, there is no telling how many they may loose discovering this and then discovering the emitter's maximum range. No weapon they carry has much hope of seriously damaging the DS's surface let alone its vitals. They only have a month, *maybe* more to deal with something in Earth orbit that is extremely massive, will destroy Earth if destroyed where it is, there is really very little they can do, but I don't want to simply give up the ghost; I think they have a chance even if it is small.

There are three ways to destroy the DS I have seen on this thread: Pelt it with very large rocks; send it into the sun; send a largish black hole at it.

All three depend on disabling the DS tractor beams (and hence using antimatter, or some technobabble weapon...), the first one if successful leaves Earth useless, so does the third. The third is also questionable as we don't really know if they can construct a large enough black hole, particularly without Romulan support (although they might get it if they ask). The second is less damaging to Earth, but is also questionable as moving the DS a significant distance before it regains weapons is unlikely. If it is decided to allow Earth to be a casualty then I would try to throw large rocks at it. Moving large rocks is much easier than moving the DS. The only proviso is time, all the large rocks are far away and moving them to Earth might take long enough that the DS regains weapons control...In that case I favor the black hole if feasible.

If none of these work I would ask Q to make it go away