SW vs ST combat ranges.

[Praxis]

Where does this come from? And the ability to "almost hit" a target is not to impressive.

Try telling that to a Warsie who is arguing that 'The stormtroopers were trying to miss!!!!' in the DS escape scene. Suddenly all those misses the stormtroopers were racking up are 'superior skill and training' to 'make it look good but still not hit'. I've heard this from dozens of warsies on this and other sites.

So your assertion is that:
1) Darth Vader placed a homing beacon on the Falcon, so that when they escape he can follow the Falcon to the Rebel Base.
2) Then he ordered them killed so that they can't escape.

That doesn't make much sense, does it?

[Praxis]

When it comes to Federation ships and beam phasers, they hit very near 100% of the time. I already detailed the target envolope at 200+ km and that ensures ~100% hit ratios against ships the size of a Galor or larger.

LOL! They hit very near to 100% of the time? Are you joking here? You MUST have watched Trekmiss at some point...you know, the shuttle missing the Jem Hadar less than 1 km away that is moving in a straight line, etc...

[Robert Walper]

When it comes to Federation ships and beam phasers, they hit very near 100% of the time. I already detailed the target envolope at 200+ km and that ensures ~100% hit ratios against ships the size of a Galor or larger.

LOL! They hit very near to 100% of the time? Are you joking here? You MUST have watched Trekmiss at some point...you know, the shuttle missing the Jem Hadar less than 1 km away that is moving in a straight line, etc...

I suggest you pay attention to what he's actually saying.

[SirNitram]

Common sense is yet another casualty of a range debate.

If Federation ships are scoring high accuracy shots at such high ranges and their opponents aren't, why isn't the Federation murdering the other sides from long range?

[Robert Walper]

Common sense is yet another casualty of a range debate.

If Federation ships are scoring high accuracy shots at such high ranges and their opponents aren't, why isn't the Federation murdering the other sides from long range?

Perhaps the speed at which ships can close at eachother hinders such an advantage? Or perhaps opponents of the Federation compensate for their inferior accuracy with higher firepower?

[SirNitram]

Common sense is yet another casualty of a range debate.

If Federation ships are scoring high accuracy shots at such high ranges and their opponents aren't, why isn't the Federation murdering the other sides from long range?

Perhaps the speed at which ships can close at eachother hinders such an advantage? Or perhaps opponents of the Federation compensate for their inferior accuracy with higher firepower?

Except that the Federation closes to slug-out range instead of using maneuvering to stay back. Hell, their golden boy's tactic is to get in the enemy's face, the Picard Maneuver.

No, the most likely answer is that while once you have a lock, beams are insanely accurate, but getting a solid lock is a bitch. See VOY: Dragon's Teeth for a good example.

[Robert Walper]

Except that the Federation closes to slug-out range instead of using maneuvering to stay back. Hell, their golden boy's tactic is to get in the enemy's face, the Picard Maneuver.

No, the most likely answer is that while once you have a lock, beams are insanely accurate, but getting a solid lock is a bitch. See VOY: Dragon's Teeth for a good example.

That makes sense, but when has been established getting a lock with phasers is typically difficult?

[SirNitram]

Except that the Federation closes to slug-out range instead of using maneuvering to stay back. Hell, their golden boy's tactic is to get in the enemy's face, the Picard Maneuver.

No, the most likely answer is that while once you have a lock, beams are insanely accurate, but getting a solid lock is a bitch. See VOY: Dragon's Teeth for a good example.

That makes sense, but when has been established getting a lock with phasers is typically difficult?

Depends how you define 'difficult'. If you define it as 'We have to get as close as our enemies need to get to get good accuracy, IE, within ten klicks most of the time', then the majority of battles show it.

[Robert Walper]

Depends how you define 'difficult'. If you define it as 'We have to get as close as our enemies need to get to get good accuracy, IE, within ten klicks most of the time', then the majority of battles show it.

Well, under that specific definition I'd have to agree getting a lock is difficult.

[Gunhead]

Just out of curiosity. How far was the Naboo cruiser from the blockade in PM when they opened fire? Has anyone made any calculations on it?

-Gunhead

[apocolypse]

Where does this come from? And the ability to "almost hit" a target is not to impressive.

Try telling that to a Warsie who is arguing that 'The stormtroopers were trying to miss!!!!' in the DS escape scene. Suddenly all those misses the stormtroopers were racking up are 'superior skill and training' to 'make it look good but still not hit'. I've heard this from dozens of warsies on this and other sites.

This has sod all to do with this thread. What, you couldn't keep your blatant trolling limited to SB?

[Lord Revan]

Where does this come from? And the ability to "almost hit" a target is not to impressive.

Try telling that to a Warsie who is arguing that 'The stormtroopers were trying to miss!!!!' in the DS escape scene. Suddenly all those misses the stormtroopers were racking up are 'superior skill and training' to 'make it look good but still not hit'. I've heard this from dozens of warsies on this and other sites.

First what does troop accuraty has to with Capship battles.

Second I can't remember any case poor accuracy from Clone/storm Troopers in a case where death elimination of the target desired outcome(for example DS escape or Bespin Escape).

[brianeyci]

Time for some meat in this thread.

In TNG The Wounded, we see photon torpedoes being fired at near one light-second. From Poe's analysis, it is a little less than one light second, but let's not nitpick and use one light second for now.

But, we usually see within visual range combat. In large fleet battles, sure we sometimes see fire coming from beyond visual range. But as already pointed out, there must be a reason to close to point-blank range. If you can hit a capital-sized ship target from 200 km range away, why would you want to close closer? Whether or not it has anything to do with accuracy is moot. In combat, if the Federation have a reason to close to point-blank, be it phaser propagation, torpedo strength or so on, then they will usually do so except in extreme circumstances like TNG The Wounded when an inferior vessel is fighting a far superior one with a special sensor suite.

Take one light second. Take the usual combat range of Trek to be around one kilometer. Then (2.9e5 km)(x) = (1), and the effectiveness of Trek ECM against Trek is around 3.4e-6 or 1/10000. In other words, Trek subspace and EM sensors when dealing with active jamming (assuming that is what happens in large fleet battles necessitating extreme short range) lowers sensor effectiveness to about 1/10000 the maximum range from TNG The Wounded.

Another idea thrown out recently in PST was to ignore visuals for ranges entirely because of inconsistency between visuals. Dialogue always specifies thousand kilometer ranges. I do not support this, because even though we see a Warbird's nose where ten-forward should be and phaser shots coming from places on the Enterprise where there are no phaser banks, that should not mean we should throw away all visuals and rely purely on dialogue.

I am not completely sure that Wars has a foolproof way to stop Trek jamming either. A Sith Lord, the most cunning, devious and intelligent person in the universe, who has been steeled by countless fighter battles and is the right hand of the Emperor himself, cannot figure out to install ironsights on his TIE fighter? Although it is canon that Wars can jam electronic eyes and not biological eyes (for some unknown reason), if Darth Vader does not have a telescope and relies on his electronic sensors all the time, then perhaps Wars relies more on computer targeting and exotic sensors than usually believed.

However, even given all of this, the disparity is far too great. Even if we take the best case scenario for jamming and assume that Trek jamming perfectly affects Wars, not only are Wars pilots used to operating in a heavy jamming environment, but they have countermeasures and alternative types of sensor equipment including good old cameras mounted on their ships. Every time Trek jamming has been mentioned, it is usually a devestating tactic which cannot be easily circumvented. For example in Sacrifice of Angels, the Dominion sent out an "EM Pulse" to jam communications. The result was that galaxies were out of position, and Sisko ended up being the only ship successfully running the blockade. And Trek has never demonstrated that they have telescopes/cameras installed on their ships.

Brian

[Scrubula]

Praxis posted

So your assertion is that:
1) Darth Vader placed a homing beacon on the Falcon, so that when they escape he can follow the Falcon to the Rebel Base.
2) Then he ordered them killed so that they can't escape.

Care to try to prove that the stormtroopers had any orders from Vader at all? Everything in the movie and script points to the stormies trying to hit. I'm not asserting anything that you mentioned, I am however confident that they were never trying to miss anything. Watch the movie, read the script. If you see even a tiny shred of evidence that provesotherwise, I'd like to see it.

Could it even be possible that, with his force precog that Vader knew they were going to escape, so didn't say squat about missing or hitting to the troopers (GASP!) OMFG! A explanation that doesn't require something as stupid as ordering your troops to convincingly miss!

[Vympel]

Care to try to prove that the stormtroopers had any orders from Vader at all?

... Right. They had no orders from Vader or Tarkin as to what to do about the intruders, even though we know from Leia that they let them go, and we know from Tarkin and Vader's conversations before and after they escaped that it was the general idea. They just crossed their fingers I guess.

Everything in the movie and script points to the stormies trying to hit.

Only if "everything" is your subjective impression, since there's nothing in the script to indicate they were trying to kill any of them.

I'm not asserting anything that you mentioned, I am however confident that they were never trying to miss anything. Watch the movie, read the script. If you see even a tiny shred of evidence that provesotherwise, I'd like to see it.

Your position is not the default.

Could it even be possible that, with his force precog that Vader knew they were going to escape, so didn't say squat about missing or hitting to the troopers (GASP!) OMFG! A explanation that doesn't require something as stupid as ordering your troops to convincingly miss!

Or just ordering them to herd them to the hangar where the Millennium Falcon is sitting with a homing beacon. It doesn't have to be "convincingly miss".

As for saying Vader knew they were going to escape- no evidence for that. There is evidence that they let them go- Leia, Tarkin, Vader. Predictably, you're going to claim that this was only in relation to the starfighters they sent after them, but this is patent nonsense- Han's comment was in relation to the entire rescue, not starfighters.

[Lord Revan]

Care to try to prove that the stormtroopers had any orders from Vader at all? Everything in the movie and script points to the stormies trying to hit. I'm not asserting anything that you mentioned, I am however confident that they were never trying to miss anything. Watch the movie, read the script. If you see even a tiny shred of evidence that provesotherwise, I'd like to see it.

Well addtion what Vympel said there's that line from Vader "escape is not his plan, I will deal with personally" and there's only Squad stormtrooper "guarding" the Falcon (they leave to wach the duel, so they would ordered to guard the Falcon no matter what)). Then of course the Capture of the Tantive IV, the Battles Geonosis and Hoth, plus loads of EU material.

Could it even be possible that, with his force precog that Vader knew they were going to escape, so didn't say squat about missing or hitting to the troopers (GASP!) OMFG! A explanation that doesn't require something as stupid as ordering your troops to convincingly miss!

it's called suppression fire and it's quite common military tactic (meant to the head of enemy down (or this case lead the enemy along certain route) there's no reason to assume that Stormtroopers can't shoot straight.

[Lord Revan]

And could somebody explain exactly what does stormtrooper accuracity has to do with CAPITAL SHIP combat

[Scrubula]

And could somebody explain exactly what does stormtrooper accuracity has to do with CAPITAL SHIP combat

As I said before, when ST ships purposely miss, many here would say "That's not that impressive." When stormtroopers are supposedly doing the same thing, suddenly it's 'skill and discipline and superior training". It's not directly rated to cap ship vs. cap ship, more an observation on the skewed view that at least some warsies have on things.

... Right. They had no orders from Vader or Tarkin as to what to do about the intruders, even though we know from Leia that they let them go, and we know from Tarkin and Vader's conversations before and after they escaped that it was the general idea. They just crossed their fingers I guess.

So, let me quess, the imps blocked off their escape route in the detention area, knowing due to Vaders orders that they would escape through the trash chute and then be released by their droids? Right... And luckily all those imps were more than willing to die for this ruse to suceed. Damn, have you even watched that sequence in the movies?

TARKIN: If you're right, he must not be allowed to escape.

VADER: Escape is not his plan. I must face him alone.

Doesn't sound like a grand deception to allow these intruders to escape is being hatched here, does it?

FIRST TROOPER: Do you know what's going on?

SECOND TROOPER: Maybe it's another drill.

Whoa, hold on a minute! Here some stormtrooper dialouge from right smack dab in the middle of this escape sequence. Long after any order from Vader would have been given. Gee, more evidence that no such 'miss on purpose' order was ever given.

Also, when Luke and Leia were trapped in the retracted bridge room, and the stormtroopers were firing at them from above, where exactly were those stormtroopers 'herding' them too? They were pinned between a empty chasm before them and a mob of stormtroopers behind them. Clearly neither of these groups of stormtroopers had any orders to allow escape or to herd anyone anywhere.

There are countless more examples like these in the movie and script. Care to offer any proof to counter these examples?

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but I think in a abstract sort of way, it is related by virtue of how an individuals preferences skew his perceptions from one 'verse to another. Such skews lead to the dishonest debating and extreme wankdom that infests these boards.

Back on topic.

And Trek has never demonstrated that they have telescopes/cameras installed on their ships.

I suppose that big viewscreen on the bridge is just a giant etch-a-sketch? I mean really, do you guys even think before you post crap like this.

Every time Trek jamming has been mentioned, it is usually a devestating tactic which cannot be easily circumvented.

Complete BS. Jamming in Trek is common, every major race has jamming and it is present in many battles. Sometimes they can compensate for it completly, sometimes they can't, but I can't ever recall it being a 'devestating tactic which cannot be easily overcome'. More often than not is is limiting, but not a complet wipe like SW where even their cameras are somehow jammed. How you think that bodes well for SW ability to deal with jamming is beyond me.

[Lord Revan]

As I said before, when ST ships purposely miss, many here would say "That's not that impressive." When stormtroopers are supposedly doing the same thing, suddenly it's 'skill and discipline and superior training". It's not directly rated to cap ship vs. cap ship, more an observation on the skewed view that at least some warsies have on things.

it have to do with fact that ST ships very often (even situation were a miss would fatal), were as SW Infantry misses in very few (special) cases.

[Firefox]

As I said before, when ST ships purposely miss, many here would say "That's not that impressive."

Name some examples of when Trek ships purposely miss.

[Batman]

And could somebody explain exactly what does stormtrooper accuracity has to do with CAPITAL SHIP combat

As I said before, when ST ships purposely miss, many here would say "That's not that impressive."

No, we'd ask 'what evidence is there they'd miss purposefully?' There's plenty of evidence for the Stormtroopers doing so. There's none for Trek.

When stormtroopers are supposedly doing the same thing, suddenly it's 'skill and discipline and superior training".

Which, to a degree, it is.

It's not directly rated to cap ship vs. cap ship, more an observation on the skewed view that at least some warsies have on things.

Thewre's a skewed view here all right. It is not on the Warsie side, though.

... Right. They had no orders from Vader or Tarkin as to what to do about the intruders, even though we know from Leia that they let them go, and we know from Tarkin and Vader's conversations before and after they escaped that it was the general idea. They just crossed their fingers I guess.

So, let me quess, the imps blocked off their escape route in the detention area,

As per trying to prevent the escape of Princess Leia,

knowing due to Vaders orders that they would escape through the trash chute and then be released by their droids? Right...

I take it the idea of chronolgy is beyond you. By that time the plan to release and trace them had not yet been formed you moron.

And luckily all those imps were more than willing to die for this ruse to suceed. Damn, have you even watched that sequence in the movies?

Yes we have. You, obviously, haven't.

TARKIN: If you're right, he must not be allowed to escape.
VADER: Escape is not his plan. I must face him alone.

[/quote}
Doesn't sound like a grand deception to allow these intruders to escape is being hatched here, does it?

And the escape of Kenobi is relevant to the escape of the Princess and, by extension, the Falcon, why exactly?

FIRST TROOPER: Do you know what's going on?
SECOND TROOPER: Maybe it's another drill.

Whoa, hold on a minute! Here some stormtrooper dialouge from right smack dab in the middle of this escape sequence. Long after any order from Vader would have been given. Gee, more evidence that no such 'miss on purpose' order was ever given.

I notice you fail to provide a marker for wheren that conversation actually occured, leaving us to believe your word as to it being long after Vader's order 'would' have occured.
Not that that's relevant, as there's no reason to assume that every single trooper involved in that ruse needs to be told it's a ruse. All they need to be told is 'do X'.

Also, when Luke and Leia were trapped in the retracted bridge room, and the stormtroopers were firing at them from above, where exactly were those stormtroopers 'herding' them too? They were pinned between a empty chasm before them and a mob of stormtroopers behind them. Clearly neither of these groups of stormtroopers had any orders to allow escape or to herd anyone anywhere.

You can, of course, show that that happened after Vader/Tarkin decided on the tracer plan.
Not that you can show what orders those Stormtroopers had in the first place.

There are countless more examples like these in the movie and script. Care to offer any proof to counter these examples?

As not a single one of those examples counters the herding theory, why would we need any?

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but I think in a abstract sort of way, it is related by virtue of how an individuals preferences skew his perceptions from one 'verse to another. Such skews lead to the dishonest debating and extreme wankdom that infests these boards.

You're talking about yourself, I take it.

And Trek has never demonstrated that they have telescopes/cameras installed on their ships.

I suppose that big viewscreen on the bridge is just a giant etch-a-sketch? I mean really, do you guys even think before you post crap like this.

We do. You abviously don't. Camera's aren't disrupted by easily-seen-rhrough-nebulae, you know. The viewscreen regularly is.
It's obviously visual representation of, or at least heaily relying on, other sensor data.

[Zwinmar]

Kinda off topic in a way here but i do have a question:

Whats the rate of fire for the main phaser bank of the Ent-D?

Now assume for a moment that the Ent-D is equal to a ISD

What the rate of fire for the ISD?

keep in in every description I have seen for starwars capital ships they put out a 'wall of energy' when they fire.


So if you assume that the Ent-D's phaser array does the same damage as say a Heavy Turbo Laser on a shot per shot basis, wouldnt the fact that an ISD which has a multible selection of batteries not win by default, last I checked 20 fireing at one shot a second (for example) beats 1 shot fired at one a second. And its fairly obvious that in the trekverse it takes multiple shots to destroye enemy vessels


On another note, I read somewere that the 'view screens'..the transparent part..of like an Xwing's canopy has a magnifying effect so wouldnt that throw ranges off that people are just assumeing?

[Scrubula]

There's plenty of evidence for the Stormtroopers doing so.

Dont' suppose you actually want to back up that claim with some, gee, i don't know, evidence maybe? Ya know, like I did when disproving this foolish idea.

I take it the idea of chronolgy is beyond you. By that time the plan to release and trace them had not yet been formed you moron.

So they came up with the plan to 'release' them, after they'd escaped. Wow, and your calling me a moron?

BTW, do you always resort to childish insults instead of offering any leigitimate counters when evidence is given contrary to your arguement, or are you just being extra trollish?

Yes we have. You, obviously, haven't.

So are you saying that the troopers didn't give their lives for this 'miss on purpose' plan? Or are you just spewing trollish nonsense? Again, I suggest you actually watch the movie.

I notice you fail to provide a marker for wheren that conversation actually occured, leaving us to believe your word as to it being long after Vader's order 'would' have occured.
Not that that's relevant, as there's no reason to assume that every single trooper involved in that ruse needs to be told it's a ruse. All they need to be told is 'do X'.

Yes, I'm sure the scene was completly meaningless, Lucas just threw it in for filler right? Actually, its funny, because if the supposed order wasn't given by this time, then we are still left with horribly ineffective and inaccurate stormtroopers, which was my whole point. Thank you for strengthing my argument with your trolling.

So tell me then, as you are so knowledgable, when exactly was the order given. At what point can you declare 100% that this ruse was inacted. Should be simple enough if you aren't completly talking out of your ass.

You can, of course, show that that happened after Vader/Tarkin decided on the tracer plan.
Not that you can show what orders those Stormtroopers had in the first place.

Considering you can't prove such an order was ever given, it's pretty irrelevant. This scene was after the 20 stormtroopers all missed Han running down a hall away from them, so I'm content to agree that no such order had been given and that stormtroopers are indeed pathetic shots. Hell, they couldn't hit Luke and Leia who were standing, trapped on a tiny platform, and they were firing on them from above. Again, I thank you for furthering my arguments with your trolling.

You're talking about yourself, I take it.

LOL! Fucking brilliant. Now that I see what I'm up against, and all I can do is laugh.

It's obviously visual representation of, or at least heaily relying on, other sensor data.

Since when does saying 'It's obviously what I say it is!' Without providing a shred of evidence make it so?
Oh, wait, it doesn't.

[Batman]

There's plenty of evidence for the Stormtroopers doing so.

Dont' suppose you actually want to back up that claim with some, gee, i don't know, evidence maybe? Ya know, like I did when disproving this foolish idea.

You're approaching Neutronium density. You disproved nothing, dunderhead. The evidence is there canonically being a plan to let them escape and lead the DS to the Rebel base, which is kinda hard if they get flatlined on the way to the landing bay.

I take it the idea of chronolgy is beyond you. By that time the plan to release and trace them had not yet been formed you moron.

So they came up with the plan to 'release' them, after they'd escaped. Wow, and your calling me a moron?
BTW, do you always resort to childish insults instead of offering any leigitimate counters when evidence is given contrary to your arguement, or are you just being extra trollish?

I'll provide evidence when you do. Evidence for 'shoot to kill' orders when the plan was to let them get away, please?

Yes we have. You, obviously, haven't.

So are you saying that the troopers didn't give their lives for this 'miss on purpose' plan? Or are you just spewing trollish nonsense? Again, I suggest you actually watch the movie.

I have. So what? Yes, a few of them died in the process. It's called discipline. Soldiers are payed to risk death, you know.

I notice you fail to provide a marker for wheren that conversation actually occured, leaving us to believe your word as to it being long after Vader's order 'would' have occured.
Not that that's relevant, as there's no reason to assume that every single trooper involved in that ruse needs to be told it's a ruse. All they need to be told is 'do X'.

Yes, I'm sure the scene was completly meaningless, Lucas just threw it in for filler right? Actually, its funny, because if the supposed order wasn't given by this time, then we are still left with horribly ineffective and inaccurate stormtroopers, which was my whole point.

Which is backed up by nothing whatsoever. As opposed to them missing on purpose being completely in line with Vader's plan. Too bad, so sad...

Thank you for strengthing my argument with your trolling.

You don't like logic all that much, do you? I show your point has no basis while the 'miss on purpose' one has and I'm strengthening YOUR position?

So tell me then, as you are so knowledgable, when exactly was the order given. At what point can you declare 100% that this ruse was inacted. Should be simple enough if you aren't completly talking out of your ass.

Why would I have to? We know the order was given. Unless YOU can prove 100% that the ruse was NOT inacted at any given time the troopers were missing on purpose.

You can, of course, show that that happened after Vader/Tarkin decided on the tracer plan.
Not that you can show what orders those Stormtroopers had in the first place.

Considering you can't prove such an order was ever given, it's pretty irrelevant.

Are you really this stupid? The Rebels were supposed to escape. Since they can't escape if they're shot dead by the Stormtroopers, said troopers naturally had orders not to kill them.

This scene was after the 20 stormtroopers all missed Han running down a hall away from them, so I'm content to agree that no such order had been given and that stormtroopers are indeed pathetic shots.

Proof that the order had NOT been given, please. Not that you seem to know much about how accurate infantry fire is in the first place.

Hell, they couldn't hit Luke and Leia who were standing, trapped on a tiny platform, and they were firing on them from above. Again, I thank you for furthering my arguments with your trolling.

Evidence the order had not been gioven at that time, please. Not that you seem to know much about infantry accuracy in the first place.

You're talking about yourself, I take it.

LOL! Fucking brilliant. Now that I see what I'm up against, and all I can do is laugh.

It's obviously visual representation of, or at least heaily relying on, other sensor data.

Since when does saying 'It's obviously what I say it is!' Without providing a shred of evidence make it so?
Oh, wait, it doesn't.

I notice how you snipped the part that actually contained the evidence.
Your honesty is overwhelming.
Here, let me show you:

Camera's aren't disrupted by easily-seen-rhrough-nebulae, you know. The viewscreen regularly is.

You were saying?

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

Well ofcourse ST has effective combat range of hundreds of thousands of km, thats why the Klingons decided to bombard the basically stationary DS9 from afar to pieces....oh wait, they didnt do that, they decided to close to pissing range instead